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hm

@videotron.ca

New Band Rates?

Are these new dry loop fee's?

Applications to review and vary Telecom Decision 2011-24 regarding rates for unbundled local loops provided by Bell Aliant Regional Communications, Limited Partnership and Bell Canada in Ontario and Quebec
»crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2012/2012-628.htm

Doesn't seem like much of a change at all except on the higher band rates which increase a couple of dollars.



Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:22

It looks like:

1) Bell proposed new unbundled loop fees (not dry loop fees, although those are defined as 50% of the unbundled loop fees)
2) The CRTC overrode Bell's proposed fees by using a different interpretation of cost
3) Bell was upset and submitted an R&V
4) This ruling from the CRTC says that the CRTC did not err, their corrected rates will stand.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5

said by Guspaz:

It looks like:

1) Bell proposed new unbundled loop fees (not dry loop fees, although those are defined as 50% of the unbundled loop fees)
2) The CRTC overrode Bell's proposed fees by using a different interpretation of cost
3) Bell was upset and submitted an R&V
4) This ruling from the CRTC says that the CRTC did not err, their corrected rates will stand.

Actually, the rates are now lower than before Bell filed their rate increase. Their cost studied were flawed.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


hm

@videotron.ca

The bottom of Table 2 (new approved rates) looks more expensive at the higher ends by a dollar or two. Maybe 25-cents lower on bands A to C.

Or is that not the correct data? Or am I reading it wrong.

I'm comparing Bell Canada (Not Bell Aliant), Table 2. First row Versus last row.


HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5

You have to compare the old Phase II cost to the new Phase II cost (line 1 and line 7). Line 8 is after the allowed markup is added.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net



hm

@videotron.ca

You are right. Saw my mistake when i looked it over.



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to HeadSpinning

Does this mean the iisps will get a retroactive refund over the past 3 years?

I don't expect the users to get refunds (~1/month), but for an iisp lets say with 10K users over paying loop fee's @ 10K/month over 3 years... that a nice injection.... $360K

Seems to me the CRTC states this is retroactive.



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

It looks like:

4) This ruling from the CRTC says that the CRTC did not err, their corrected rates will stand.

Actually the CRTC stated they did err. They state this more than once in their release (link in first post).

Goldberg wrote about it today. He states the previous topic on transparency (»The end of ####? - or CRTC orders telecom companies to open) is mainly due to the CRTC finding errors in calculations thus the reason to open up the numbers for scrutiny. Nothing about being open with the public or any such voodoo like that, like what Geist and his minions are stating.

He states it's about 10% less across the board and indeed retroactive over 3 years.

So iisp's will be seeing a nice refund there. But will this overpaying of loop fee's be refunded to the people who actually overpaid? Or will the iisp's just pocket it? It's roughly equal to about 30+$ per year per customer it seems. Unless i'm mistaken.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by hm :

[ It's roughly equal to about 30+$ per year per customer it seems.

Correction: ~15/year + tax etc


Teddy Boom
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If I'm not mistaken, the cost of the Dry Loop Band Rate is 50% of those numbers, so under $3 for Band A, and under $6 for Band B. Is that right?

If so, $10 flat Dry Loop fees are insane, and even Teksavvy's $7.25 is a fair bit too high...
--
electronicsguru.ca



Guspaz
Guspaz
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join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:22
reply to hm

Yes, they're 50% of ULL rates. And yes, band A costs a company like TSI only 2.85.

TSI used to mark up dry loop rates by a fixed amount (three something, if memory serves). There is, after all, some extra overhead on their part to cover. They never adjusted their dry loop rates when the ULL rates dropped, so they're a bit more skewed now than they used to be.

Considering TSI is currently losing money on DSL, they don't have a strong incentive to adjust them until the CRTC works out all the pricing stuff, such as the UBB rates being too high.

On a related note, if you're wondering how companies like Colba can stay competitive, consider that they're paying the ULL rates to get access to a customer's line. $5.69 gets them bare-metal access to band A customers allowing them to offer a triple play over that loop without incurring any sort of capacity-based charges. They can even offer analog telephone service without paying anything extra, if they want.

Yes, they don't have access to remotes, but that doesn't matter if they're cherry-picking the people closest to the CO anyhow.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org


HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to hm

Only 4 Wire Centres in Toronto are Rate Band A - the rest are B.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net



TSI Marc
Premium,VIP
join:2006-06-23
Chatham, ON
kudos:26

I don't believe this changes anything for dry loop fees for GAS. It may well if reviewed..
--
Marc - CEO/TekSavvy



hm

@videotron.ca
reply to Teddy Boom

said by Teddy Boom:

If so, $10 flat Dry Loop fees are insane, and even Teksavvy's $7.25 is a fair bit too high...

I think some ISP's charge one flat price regardless of the band rate you are in for their dry-loop. If I'm not mistaken I think Ebox & Acanac charge a flat rate of 8$ or 10$.

These so-called indi's mark it up a lot.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to Teddy Boom

said by Teddy Boom:

If I'm not mistaken, the cost of the Dry Loop Band Rate is 50% of those numbers, so under $3 for Band A, and under $6 for Band B. Is that right?

If so, $10 flat Dry Loop fees are insane, and even Teksavvy's $7.25 is a fair bit too high...

If you only knew the margins in every other consumer products sector other than ICT, you wouldn't be saying that.

Its amazing how people will gladly pay $100 for a pair of jeans that cost $3.25 to make, but when it comes to paying $7.25 extra to get Internet without dialtone, it's considered "insane" markup.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


chalufa

@electronicbox.net

said by HeadSpinning:

Its amazing how people will gladly pay $100 for a pair of jeans that cost $3.25 to make, but when it comes to paying $7.25 extra to get Internet without dialtone, it's considered "insane" markup.

Imagine if you had to pay an extra $7.25 because you didn't buy another unrelated product along with your $30 jeans purchase. You'd kinda feel cheated. Or worse, being told its $9.10 or more because you live in this area and not that one. I can tell you most people would probably be ticked off at that point.

What makes it even worse is the fact Bell, Telus and probably every other ILEC don't charge their own clients dry-loop fees. Perhaps there is some truth to this "insane" markup comment.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5

Think of it this way - you're getting a discount because they're adding the DSL service to an existing phone line.

Regardless of what the ILECs charge their own retail customers, the fact is they charge IISPs and CLECs to use their facilities, and there has to be cost recovery and reasonable margin on that charge.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net



Teddy Boom
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1 edit
reply to HeadSpinning

said by HeadSpinning:

Only 4 Wire Centres in Toronto are Rate Band A - the rest are B.

I don't know what constitutes a wire centre (are you talking ASQUITH and DUFFERIN and such? If so, many of those buildings cover areas that are both Band A and Band B). I do know that when I sold a lot of DSL, I found that about half of Toronto proper was on Band A, and the other half Band B. Outside Toronto proper, Band A was pretty rare. Almost everybody in an urban area was at most Band B.
--
electronicsguru.ca


xsbell

join:2008-12-22
Canada
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Reviews:
·Primus Telecommu..
reply to hm

IMO, the ~$21.50/month 6Mbps port fee should include the connection to their network. We don't pay extra band rates when we have phone service, the connection to their network is included.

If it's not included, how can they justify charging ~$21.50/month for a 6Mbps intranet connection to their LAC at TorIX? Then if I want my traffic routed to my ISP, which is in the same building, they charge more for 1Gbps than what you could pay for actual IP transit. It's ridiculous.



Gone
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Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
reply to Teddy Boom

said by Teddy Boom:

Almost everybody in an urban area was at most Band B.

Band C in urban areas becomes much more common once you get out of the GTA.


Teddy Boom
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reply to Guspaz

said by Guspaz:

TSI used to mark up dry loop rates by a fixed amount (three something, if memory serves).

I'm sure you are right, and I totally respect the need to add markup. Teksavvy and all the other small companies need to make money. At the same time, this isn't the clothing business, and it does look like the Band Rates need to be reviewed. More so for companies charging $10 or $11 across the board though. As it is, the band rate fees are driving many customers towards cable who would be perfectly happy on DSL.

As to whether Teksavvy makes more money on cable or DSL, I've got no idea.. I've thought about it a lot, and I've heard lots of claims, but I don't find any of it particularly credible. In general, I'm sure margins are thinner than they should be. Let's hope capacity charges are made at least a little more sane..
--
electronicsguru.ca

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to Teddy Boom

said by Teddy Boom:

I don't know what constitutes a wire centre (are you talking ASQUITH and DUFFERIN and such? If so, many of those buildings cover areas that are both Band A and Band B). I do know that when I sold a lot of DSL, I found that about half of Toronto proper was on Band A, and the other half Band B. Outside Toronto proper, Band A was pretty rare. Almost everybody in an urban area was at most Band B.

In Toronto, Adelaide, Asquith, Eglinton and Simcoe are Band A Wire Centres. Everything else is Band B.

In Ottawa, O'Connor is Band A, everything else is Band B.

As near as I can tell, there are no other Band A offices outside of those 5 in Ontario. London, Kitchener, etc., are all Band B or higher.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net


Teddy Boom
k kudos Received
Premium
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Toronto, ON
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said by HeadSpinning:

In Toronto, Adelaide, Asquith, Eglinton and Simcoe are Band A Wire Centres. Everything else is Band B.

Well, I've gone through Asquith exchanges on Teksavvy's rate lookup tool (which seems to be gone now) many times, and I know for sure that some of the exchanges at Asquith came up as Band B. I'm also pretty sure that some exchanges on Dufferin came up Band A.
--
electronicsguru.ca


hm

@videotron.ca
reply to HeadSpinning

said by HeadSpinning:

Regardless of what the ILECs charge their own retail customers, the fact is they charge IISPs and CLECs to use their facilities, and there has to be cost recovery and reasonable margin on that charge.

Didn't Bell et al also raise recently raise rates for access to facilities? Or was it to the C/O? Seems I recall seeing a CRTC filing on this.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to Teddy Boom

said by Teddy Boom:

Well, I've gone through Asquith exchanges on Teksavvy's rate lookup tool (which seems to be gone now) many times, and I know for sure that some of the exchanges at Asquith came up as Band B. I'm also pretty sure that some exchanges on Dufferin came up Band A.

Then either you were mistaken or Teksavvy's lookup tool is wrong. My information on Toronto and Ottawa rate bands is taken directly from the tariffs filed by Bell with the CRTC.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to hm

said by hm :

Didn't Bell et al also raise recently raise rates for access to facilities? Or was it to the C/O? Seems I recall seeing a CRTC filing on this.

Bell has filed for price increases on CO floor space as well as power.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net

funny

join:2010-12-22

said by HeadSpinning:

said by hm :

Didn't Bell et al also raise recently raise rates for access to facilities? Or was it to the C/O? Seems I recall seeing a CRTC filing on this.

Bell has filed for price increases on CO floor space as well as power.

its the waaa we didn't get to buy astral so we gonna make everyone else pay scene is it?


dillyhammer
START me up
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join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
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Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by funny:

its the waaa we didn't get to buy astral so we gonna make everyone else pay scene is it?

They'll own Astral before 2013 is over. Bank on it.

Mike


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by dillyhammer:

They'll own Astral before 2013 is over. Bank on it.

Doubt it. In fact, I'd be willing to bet the CRTC's response will be identical to what it was before - not in the public's interest, therefore denied.

HeadSpinning
MNSi Internet

join:2005-05-29
Windsor, ON
kudos:5
reply to funny

said by funny:

said by HeadSpinning:

said by hm :

Didn't Bell et al also raise recently raise rates for access to facilities? Or was it to the C/O? Seems I recall seeing a CRTC filing on this.

Bell has filed for price increases on CO floor space as well as power.

its the waaa we didn't get to buy astral so we gonna make everyone else pay scene is it?

No - they filed for those before the Astral deal was rejected.
--
MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net