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digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to Kardinal

Re: Gasoline Prices Below 99 Cents/Litre By Christmas

Manual transmissions (shifting with a clutch) are not cool because they are not green enough for the fuel economy and emissions regulations that will be in place in the next decade and beyond. The carburetor disappeared for the same reason. I don't miss it any more than I miss manual steering, manual brakes, a window crank or unlocking with a key.

There's a reason why cars with 5+ speed automatics get better mileage than sticks: they be automated and computerized to the car's individual power profile. And, if there's a breakthrough in battery technology that reduces the charging time to a few minutes instead of a few hours, cars with clutches will disappear for good.
--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.



vue666
Small block Chevys never die
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1

And a 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air, 1955 Mercedes 300SL Gullwing or 1930's Auburn Boattail are cooler then most cars made today....



Mike2009

join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON
kudos:3
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

1 recommendation

reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

Manual transmissions (shifting with a clutch) are not cool because they are not green enough for the fuel economy and emissions regulations that will be in place in the next decade and beyond. The carburetor disappeared for the same reason. I don't miss it any more than I miss manual steering, manual brakes, a window crank or unlocking with a key.

There's a reason why cars with 5+ speed automatics get better mileage than sticks: they be automated and computerized to the car's individual power profile. And, if there's a breakthrough in battery technology that reduces the charging time to a few minutes instead of a few hours, cars with clutches will disappear for good.

It's not only about fuel economy or being green. Some of us drive cars that we find exciting.


vue666
Small block Chevys never die
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1

If being green was cool then most of us would park or sell our cars and walk or cycle...LOL



digitalfutur
Sees More Than Shown
Premium
join:2000-07-15
BurlingtonON
kudos:2
reply to Mike2009

Actually it is about fuel economy. Government-mandated CAFE (corporate average fuel economy) which must be 39 mpg (US) by 2016 and 54 mpg by 2025, also matched by Canadian regulations. There's room to shift your own (semi-automatic) in those numbers e.g. dual-clutch, paddles, but not a manual transmission with a clutch.

You can't get 500 HP from a V6 without computer assistance, and you can't get 54 mpg overall in the corporate fleet with clutch-activated manual transmissions, because they can't be computerized to the degree required to achieve that goal.

»www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+···tandards

--
Logic requires one to deal with decisions that one's ego will not permit.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing - Edmund Burke.


Robrr

join:2008-04-19
Guelph, ON

said by digitalfutur:

You can't get 500 HP from a V6 without computer assistance, and you can't get 54 mpg overall in the corporate fleet with clutch-activated manual transmissions, because they can't be computerized to the degree required to achieve that goal.

The bold section is what you are failing to understand. Mike2009, Vue666, myself and others don't want computers running the car.

We want to be engaged in the process of driving the vehicle, not just a zombie behind the wheel.

As for fuel economy, most people agree that currently DCT's (dual clutch transmissions) and manuals get damn near the exact same fuel economy which unto itself is impressive.

That being said, I like saving a few bucks so I'll take a manual transmission in my vehicle please.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by Robrr:

The bold section is what you are failing to understand. Mike2009, Vue666, myself and others don't want computers running the car.

He does understand. The point he is making is that you guys don't matter.


TLS2000
Crazy Canuck
Premium
join:2004-02-24
Mississauga, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by Gone:

said by Robrr:

The bold section is what you are failing to understand. Mike2009, Vue666, myself and others don't want computers running the car.

He does understand. The point he is making is that you guys don't matter.

True. I love my stick shift, but they will disappear within a decade.
--
Tom

booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON

said by TLS2000:

True. I love my stick shift, but they will disappear within a decade.

They won't in smaller cars that easily meet MPG requirements. Adding the costs of a DSG to those cars is a non-starter.


Kardinal
Dei Gratia Regina
Premium,Mod
join:2001-02-04
N of 49th
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·Bell Sympatico
reply to vue666

said by vue666:

If being green was cool then most of us would park or sell our cars and walk or cycle...LOL

Some of us do during the summer, and it does wonders for the waistline and cardio fitness levels that those who only ever push automotive pedals are quite jealous of. Last year it was early June to the end of November that the car didn't move an inch. This year, not so much as I needed it for fishing trips and a few other outings. But the car is a manual because automatics are mind-numbingly boring, and flappy-paddles do not substitute for a stick-and-a-clutch pedal when it comes to driver involvement.
--
All of us get lost in the darkness, dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars

- Peart / Lifeson / Lee
Join Team Helix


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to booj

said by booj:

said by TLS2000:

True. I love my stick shift, but they will disappear within a decade.

They won't in smaller cars that easily meet MPG requirements. Adding the costs of a DSG to those cars is a non-starter.

might not take a decade...the take rates on manual transmission cars (in most brands) is abysmal at best...Mercedes no longer makes a manual transmission (even as an option) in any of their cars.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by dirtyjeffer:

might not take a decade...the take rates on manual transmission cars (in most brands) is abysmal at best...Mercedes no longer makes a manual transmission (even as an option) in any of their cars.

For what it's worth, the manual shift control on their automatic transmissions do a good, but not perfect, approximation of a true manual transmission.

booj

join:2011-02-07
Richmond, ON
reply to dirtyjeffer

The cheaper end of the car spectrum will include manuals for many decades to come. That's how I see it.

Fuel efficient automatic transmissions cost about 2k. This cost may not be that relevant when buying a Mercedes, but when buying a sub 20k car it sure is.



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by booj:

The cheaper end of the car spectrum will include manuals for many decades to come. That's how I see it.

Fuel efficient automatic transmissions cost about 2k. This cost may not be that relevant when buying a Mercedes, but when buying a sub 20k car it sure is.

considering a vast number of car buyers are financing their purchase, and that most automatics add about $1200 to the price of the car (not sure where your $2k figure comes from), that only amounts to about $15-$20/month on your payment...i doubt it would be a deal breaker...as well, it is possible that if the only transmission that was purchased and installed was the same automatic transmission, it would also enable the auto company to get better pricing and more efficient assembly which will help keep costs lower as well.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell

Robrr

join:2008-04-19
Guelph, ON

1 recommendation

reply to dirtyjeffer

said by dirtyjeffer:

might not take a decade...the take rates on manual transmission cars (in most brands) is abysmal at best...Mercedes no longer makes a manual transmission (even as an option) in any of their cars.

Incorrect. The SLK is still available with a 6-speed manual transmission.

»www.mercedes-benz.ca/content/can···tion_tag

Robrr

join:2008-04-19
Guelph, ON
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by Robrr:

The bold section is what you are failing to understand. Mike2009, Vue666, myself and others don't want computers running the car.

He does understand. The point he is making is that you guys don't matter.

Or more appropriately drivers have become complacent, lazy and totally disengage from the act of driving which is why engineers are slowly working to have it so that someday people will just sit in the vehicle and not actually do anything related to driving.

Oh well, at least at the end of the day you'll be able to put take that phone call while putting on your makeup and eating breakfast on your morning commute.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by Robrr:

Oh well, at least at the end of the day you'll be able to put take that phone call while putting on your makeup and eating breakfast on your morning commute.

If Google has anything to do with it, absolutely.

When it comes down to it, how you feel about driving is ultimately irrelevant, as 80-95% of the drivers out there drive to get from A to B or to lug their kids hockey equipment around or whatever. In other words, for utility, not for fun. Car manufacturers will cater to that market while complying with regulations. Providing fuel efficient manual transmissions for the few enthusiasts out there who drive for enjoyment rather than utility simply doesn't make financial sense.

In other words, to say it again, you don't matter. That's just the cold hard truth.


J E F F
Whatta Ya Think About Dat?
Premium
join:2004-04-01
Kitchener, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Rogers Portable ..
reply to Robrr

said by Robrr:

said by digitalfutur:

You can't get 500 HP from a V6 without computer assistance, and you can't get 54 mpg overall in the corporate fleet with clutch-activated manual transmissions, because they can't be computerized to the degree required to achieve that goal.

The bold section is what you are failing to understand. Mike2009, Vue666, myself and others don't want computers running the car.

We want to be engaged in the process of driving the vehicle, not just a zombie behind the wheel.

As for fuel economy, most people agree that currently DCT's (dual clutch transmissions) and manuals get damn near the exact same fuel economy which unto itself is impressive.

That being said, I like saving a few bucks so I'll take a manual transmission in my vehicle please.

^^^^^

What he said.

They can take my manual transmission from my cold dead hands.

Manual operated car also last much longer than automatics. Remember, automatics aren't selective when you put the pedal to the metal, you will be red-lining. Not in a manual, you can gear up at whenever you decide. For me, in town, it's 2,000. On highway, it's 3,000 or 5,000 if I need to get my ass moving. Redline for the car is 6,750. My ex-father in law blew 3 engines in different makes and model due to his lead footedness. Every red light that turned green meant a 6,000+ redline. The car selected that..not the driver.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. - Albert Einstein


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by J E F F:

Manual operated car also last much longer than automatics. Remember, automatics aren't selective when you put the pedal to the metal, you will be red-lining.

Bullshit. That has zero to do with the transmission and everything to do with the ECU. Most modern automatics are extremely conservative with how they shift in an effort to be as fuel efficient as possible. In other words, they downshift as early as possible. The engine doesn't roar when you floor it like autos did in the past, but they don't use as much fuel either.

That, and those same modern automatics let you manually shift gears, so any argument about not being able to choose is rendered moot before it even started.

I get why you guys want your standard transmissions, but seriously, claiming that an engine will last longer because you aren't redlining all the time is nothing but a heaping pile of bullshit. Anyone who drives pedal to the metal the moment the light turns green is going to blow an engine regardless of whether it's an auto or a standard.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Robrr

said by Robrr:

Incorrect. The SLK is still available with a 6-speed manual transmission.

»www.mercedes-benz.ca/content/can···tion_tag

interesting...they have brought one back...perhaps for the "roadster enthusiast" who wants to step up from a Miata...i remember reading a year or two ago that Mercedes was no longer offering manuals...as well, that is the ONLY vehicle they offer with a manual...a "base model" SLK...unlikely to sell that many anyway.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

Bullshit. That has zero to do with the transmission and everything to do with the ECU. Most modern automatics are extremely conservative with how they shift in an effort to be as fuel efficient as possible. In other words, they downshift as early as possible. The engine doesn't roar when you floor it like autos did in the past, but they don't use as much fuel either.

That, and those same modern automatics let you manually shift gears, so any argument about not being able to choose is rendered moot before it even started.

I get why you guys want your standard transmissions, but seriously, claiming that an engine will last longer because you aren't redlining all the time is nothing but a heaping pile of bullshit. Anyone who drives pedal to the metal the moment the light turns green is going to blow an engine regardless of whether it's an auto or a standard.

agreed...my Kia even has an "ActiveECO" mode, which i leave off, that gets to 6th gear as quickly as possible to maximize fuel economy...personally, i don't like it, because driving around town in 5th or 6th gear, while using a tiny amount of fuel, is rather annoying when you need to switch lanes and find you have little to no power because you are essentially coasting along in top gear...so you have to put your foot down to drop it in to 3rd or 4th to scoot over...in "regular" mode, it will still pop into top gear if you coast down a hill with little to no throttle applied, but "normal" driving won't see it get up there until 70-80km/hr, which is more appropriate...as well, like you mentioned, you can slide the shifter into it's "manual mode" and upshift and downshift manually if you want.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Mike2009

join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON
kudos:3

Manual mode sounds like something for amateurs.Why bother?



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by Mike2009:

Manual mode sounds like something for amateurs.Why bother?

i wouldn't use it to "drive a stick", otherwise i would have simply bought a car with a manual...however, in terms of starting on ice from a stop, putting into 2nd instead of first can aid with traction...same for engine braking (downshifting) to avoid locking up the wheels during relaxed braking (or going downhill)...also, depending on the gearing of your vehicle, and your speed, you might find it handy to hold a gear...in my car, if you set the cruise for 80, and travel on hilly terrain, the transmission will cruise in 6th, then downshift to 4th or 5th to maintain speed if the inclines are steep enough...alternatively, you can simply put it in 5th and leave it there if you want.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


vue666
Small block Chevys never die
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1
reply to Robrr

said by Robrr:

said by Gone:

said by Robrr:

The bold section is what you are failing to understand. Mike2009, Vue666, myself and others don't want computers running the car.

He does understand. The point he is making is that you guys don't matter.

Or more appropriately drivers have become complacent, lazy and totally disengage from the act of driving which is why engineers are slowly working to have it so that someday people will just sit in the vehicle and not actually do anything related to driving.

Oh well, at least at the end of the day you'll be able to put take that phone call while putting on your makeup and eating breakfast on your morning commute.

You mean like those cars that paralell park assistance?


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON

said by vue666:

You mean like those cars that paralell park assistance?

i get a kick out of that feature...on a big truck or van, i get it...but a Focus with parallel park assist??...really???...if you can't parallel park a Focus, stay off the fucking roads.

it reminded me of a debate i had with some people on another board about the Scion iQ...they rambled on about how great of a car this was for "urban commuters"...i countered that it had a lot of drawbacks to other cars like a Honda Fit, or Kia Rio5...they said the small size of iQ was perfect for someone who doesn't need a larger vehicle and that the iQ's size would be easier to manage in the city...again, if you can't manage a Honda Fit or a Rio5, take the bus and don't drive a car, period.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell

Robrr

join:2008-04-19
Guelph, ON
reply to Gone

said by Gone:

said by J E F F:

Manual operated car also last much longer than automatics. Remember, automatics aren't selective when you put the pedal to the metal, you will be red-lining.

Bullshit. That has zero to do with the transmission and everything to do with the ECU. Most modern automatics are extremely conservative with how they shift in an effort to be as fuel efficient as possible. In other words, they downshift as early as possible. The engine doesn't roar when you floor it like autos did in the past, but they don't use as much fuel either.

That, and those same modern automatics let you manually shift gears, so any argument about not being able to choose is rendered moot before it even started.

I get why you guys want your standard transmissions, but seriously, claiming that an engine will last longer because you aren't redlining all the time is nothing but a heaping pile of bullshit. Anyone who drives pedal to the metal the moment the light turns green is going to blow an engine regardless of whether it's an auto or a standard.

No shit to be seen in Jeff's comments. I've got 3 blown automatic transmissions to my name vs 0 manuals and I've owned a roughly equal number of each (4 auto trans vehicles vs 3 manual trans vehicles)(although I will admit to one blown clutch)

No blown motors yet.

To put it quite simply KISS methodology always has a tendency to reign supreme and quite frankly a manual transmission will always have less going on than an automatic. As a result, they will last longer.

As much as you all want to sit here and go on about how much more efficient auto is, it really isnt. As I mentioned in a previous post, the current consensus in that an auto and a manual are now on par in terms of fuel economy unless you really want to start splitting hairs about which transmission got the .1 mpg better.

The reality is that drivers are becoming lazier and lazier with every passing generation. When you ask someone about about an auto trans vs a manual trans, the first comment that usually knocks the manual trans is the "effort" involved especially when it involves commuter traffic.

If you think that is BS, look around the car a bit more.

- We now have all kinds of parking assistance in the vehicle because people don't want/can't be bothered to look behind them and actually back the vehicle in to its parking space
- Blind spot detectors because no one actually checks their blind spot while driving
- Accident avoidance systems to monitor accidents from all directions because again I can only assume their not looking out their front windshield
- Sensors to help maintain a specific gap while driving with the cruise on, that goes even further to apply the brakes automatically if the vehicle ahead of you slows down
- ABS/traction and other driver aids because people don't know how to threshold brake, steer out of a skid, etc.

and the list goes on.

I fully get that some people will never consider a vehicle anything more than a utilitarian piece of machinery (my wife considers our Jeep to be just that) but I made sure she knew how to properly and effectively drive the vehicle so that she would be able to handle any situation that might be thrown at her.

Unfortunately the same can't be said for the majority of drivers on the highway.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Start Communicat..

said by Robrr:

No shit to be seen in Jeff's comments. I've got 3 blown automatic transmissions to my name vs 0 manuals and I've owned a roughly equal number of each (4 auto trans vehicles vs 3 manual trans vehicles)(although I will admit to one blown clutch)

It was complete bullshit. What he described is an ECU issue that would allow a car to redline when someone floors it rather than downshifting quicker. Not only is that not automatic transmission issue - period - but it is also not an issue with every automatic transmission that has ever existed.

If I were to use the logic being applied here, all standards must suck because my father had a 1990s Pontiac Firefly with a standard transmission that needed to be rebuilt twice, but none of the automatics he ever owned had any transmission issues.

I get that you guys love to keep your right hand firmly gripped on a stick when driving. Your love for those transmissions is not an excuse to say stupid things about automatics or to throw objectivity out the window.

Furthermore, the air of superiority being associated with those people who drive stick, and the whining and complaining about people who drive automatics, is wholly unwarranted. To most people, a car is a utility as a means of conveyance between point A and point B. Beyond that, everything else is irrelevant, and just because some people may think otherwise does not make it any less true. While I get that there are many morons on the road who shouldn't be behind the wheel, not everyone is, and just because someone drives an automatic does not mean that they have less of a right to behind the wheel than someone who drives stick.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to Robrr

i have owned 16 cars and 6 motorcycles over the years (13 of the 22 vehicles had a manual transmission) and not wanting a manual transmission now has nothing to do with being "lazy"...driving a manual transmission in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour a day was marginally fun when i was 16...it no longer is...after a long day at work, i prefer to use my drive home to "wind down"...the last thing i want to do is the constant manipulation of every limb of my body to get home...i want a more relaxing drive...as well, if i were to injure myself, it may be next to impossible to drive a manual transmission car, meaning i would be without transportation.

if i were going to a track, to take a car to its limits, give me a manual...to live with day to day though, it has lost its appeal.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell



vue666
Small block Chevys never die
Premium
join:2007-12-07
Halifax, NS
kudos:1

DJ does make a valid point... When I purchased my 60 Corvette in 1983 it was for the purpose as a daily summer driver. My other car at the time was a Toyota Land Cruiser, it too was a standard...

I would alter between my Vette or the Toyota for commuting to work during the summer... Getting caught up in bumper to bumper traffic could cause grief for my clutch foot...


Robrr

join:2008-04-19
Guelph, ON

1 recommendation

reply to Gone

Actually the issue described is common with EVERY automatic. If the drivers holds the gas to the floor, the ECU and TCM will decide not to shift until red-line. You have to lift to make it shift sooner.

If you think I'm wrong take your vehicle out and keep the gas pinned to the floor from 0 to 120 km/h.

As for the "air of superiority" comment, you missed my point. The point being is that you actually need to focus on the task of driving, not your hair, your makeup, the email from the boss etc.. Whether a vehicle is a utilitarian piece of machinery or something that you truly enjoy driving, driving is what you are suppose to be doing behind the wheel. Unfortunately all the technology they put into vehicles these days makes it so that more and more people are becoming disengaged from the act of driving and focused on everything else around them.