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CGMason14
Nj Roaddog

join:2002-07-22
Mountainside, NJ

Verizon is using Sandy as an excuse to force people to FiOS

My grandmother who is on copper (Elizabeth NJ CO) received a note in the mail that Verizon is transitioning her home phone service from copper to FiOS due to Superstorm Sandy damage at no cost to her. The letter noted that there will be no billing changes either, so hopefully she will keep the tariffed Freedom Essentials plan she has. I forgot to bring the letter with me to scan, but I'll have it posted here tomorrow. She never had a problem with her phone service (no service calls), and during this storm it was vital that she had copper since the power was out for almost 2 weeks. She also has never had any internet services with them either. The excuse is kind of shallow though, since Verizon's undamaged copper junction box is mounted on a utility pole right next to her house.

The funny thing is the letter claimed that fiber optics were more reliable during storms! They kind of left out the part that the ONT requires power and only has an eight hour battery backup.



aefstoggaflm
Open Source Fan
Premium
join:2002-03-04
Bethlehem, PA
kudos:3

I point to »A Look at Verizon's Decimated NYC Network



matcarl
Premium
join:2007-03-09
Franklin Square, NY
reply to CGMason14

A lot of Verizon's copper was damaged in that storm from the water. I know what you mean about the ONT and the battery back-up and all, but the fiber is supposed to be more reliable as far as outdoor elements go. They just better honor the same price she has now.



CGMason14
Nj Roaddog

join:2002-07-22
Mountainside, NJ

The area is question is all overhead wiring. Its a no brainer if it was a similar situation to Lower Manhattan. All things considered, the copper phone line service was the most reliable utility in the area after that storm.



TitusTroy

join:2009-06-18
New York, NY
reply to CGMason14

said by CGMason14:

The funny thing is the letter claimed that fiber optics were more reliable during storms! They kind of left out the part that the ONT requires power and only has an eight hour battery backup

exactly!...the fiber may be water resistant but what good is that if you lose power...I lost power for 4 days in Manhattan


PoloDude
Premium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:3
reply to CGMason14

She will keep her price and plan. There are many areas in NY and NJ where the Plant (lines and poles) were completely wiped out. In those areas the company in NOT re-installing the copper plant. They will be FiOS only.
--
“My horse fights with me and fasts with me because if he is to carry me into battle, he must know my heart and I must know his or we shall never become brothers.
-Plenty Coups, Chief of the Crow”



PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to CGMason14

In addition to what PoloDude said, phone service has been provided on (at least some) fiber based facilities for decades. The fact that it will be all fiber on the fios platform will not change anything from a price perspective. If anything, I think she'll get better service.



HardwareGeek

join:2003-11-15
Brooklyn, NY

1 recommendation

reply to CGMason14

why you complaining that copper only has an 8 hour back-up. I remember in 2002 when the east coast lost power, my phone service went dead about 7 hours after the lights went out. their battery backups went dead too.
--
Email/MSN: Michael at hardwaregeeks.comAIM: MikeR35292



CGMason14
Nj Roaddog

join:2002-07-22
Mountainside, NJ

said by HardwareGeek:

why you complaining that copper only has an 8 hour back-up. I remember in 2002 when the east coast lost power, my phone service went dead about 7 hours after the lights went out. their battery backups went dead too.

If that were the case, I wouldn't have had FiOS service during the 10 day outage I had here (ONT was plugged into the generator). The local COs have generator power.

buckweet1980

join:2011-12-31
Plano, TX
reply to CGMason14

I side with Verizon on this. When they (VZ) want to upgrade their infrastructure they can't because people don't want to change. When they do upgrade the infrastructure many don't change because they're fine with what they have now. They get the shaft in both aspects, so where's the incentive to change and bring new services?

If they provide you with the same SLA and service quality then what is the issue? As long as they provide the same quality of service it doesn't matter how its brought to your door. Also how can one expect all services to work in the case of a natural disaster? I think you should be lucky to have any services at all.


McBane

join:2008-08-22
Plano, TX

I'm also with buckweet and Verizon on this one (And I rarely side on the telco side with any issue). I don't want my fios bill increasing to maintain a century old technology when we have fiber available now. Replace that copper and good riddance!


chomper87

join:2012-02-22
Clearwater, FL
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·CenturyLink
reply to CGMason14

So what?

As pointed out here:
»www.theverge.com/2012/11/17/3655···ne-sandy

Where is this totally inaccurate info coming about that Copper is more reliable?

quote:
Verizon’s taking the opportunity to rewire with fiber optics instead. Service has been restored to FiOS customers for over a week — unlike copper, fiber optics aren’t damaged by the water
Fiber infrastructure is virtually immune to:
Water
Magnetic fields
Electric fields
Lightning

And fiber has:
minimal loss of signal over long distance
bandwidth transfer of 100Gb+ per second:
quote:
A delicious combination of high-energy physicists, engineers, and computer scientists from Caltech and the University of Victoria have broken the world record for sustained, computer-to-computer transfer over a network. Between the SuperComputing 2011 (SC11) convention in Seattle and the University of Victoria Computer Centre, Canada — a distance of 134 miles (217km) — a transfer rate of 186 gigabits per second was achieved over a 100Gbps bidirectional fiber optic link; 98Gbps in one direction, 88Gbps in the other.

»www.extremetech.com/computing/10···d-record

This is a no-brainer decision. This is why Fiber is used ubiquitously in enterprise data connections, undersea transcontinental connections, etc, etc, etc.

cooldude9919

join:2000-05-29
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to CGMason14

Hell around here on the west side of town everything is fed off a ATT CEV ( controlled environment vault). All copper runs to a mux in there and then its all fiber back to the C.O. They have a generator hookup at the CEV if its without power long enough for the mux batteries to die. We are on an old oc3 ring at our office where they drop off a ds3. All of our copper t1's have about 10ft of copper before they go to the mux and are fiber back to the C.O. Just because something is copper doesnt mean it is for much or all of the path back to the C.O.



Rattler

join:2001-04-13
Havertown, PA

1 recommendation

reply to CGMason14

I have a relative in Woodbury, NJ (not a major hit area for Sandy - just a lot of rain and wind with not a lot of downed trees in his immediate area). After the storm, his POTS service went down the toilet. If you call him, you ether get 2 rings and a fast busy signal, 1 ring and static or the call may go through normally. He can call out reliably but the connection has a lot of hum and static on it.

His DSL (provisioned at the 768 level) has dropped to somewhere around 386 - varies. V* has been out on the street in his area with techs in the Copper splice boxes trying to fix the problem (for a lot of their subscribers in the area) but there has not been much progress.

He talked to one of the techs and the guy said that POTS was a real mess with a lot of wind-driven water damage all over the place and that they were not sure how good the service would be after many weeks of repairs.

There is FiOS already in his area but my relative has been resistant to the change because he thought it would up his bill. He just found out that he'll get 3/1 Internet & FiOS DV for about $5 less than he's paying now for basic POTS (no included long distance) and 768 DSL I'net so he's finally making the switch. FiOS is supposed to be installed next Wed. He's having the ONT put inside his basement and I'm going to be there to hold his hand for the technology shock I expect he will show.
--
Never raise your hands to your kids. It leaves your groin unprotected. -- Red Buttons


Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1
reply to CGMason14

This is the very definition of a first world problem. How dare they replace their ancient copper with fiber, I mean seriously.



alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT

1 edit
reply to CGMason14

Verizon is not going to force anyone, but if they want their Service Restored quickly FiOS is available. Both Copper and Fiber have their Pros and Cons, but Copper has to be replaced and Fiber is available. I keep saying Copper is an aging Infrastructure, connected to Old Equipment that has to be replaced by New Equipment that uses Fiber. Verizon is a Company and yes they want to make a Profit, but not at the Customers expense. Companies like Verizon have to use their Resources wisely, and Fiber and FiOS is the Future.



CGMason14
Nj Roaddog

join:2002-07-22
Mountainside, NJ

said by alchav:

Companies like Verizon have to use their Resources wisely, and Fiber and FiOS is the Future.

Not if you live in an area that hasn't had FiOS built out. A friend of mine in Piscataway, NJ is still waiting for it even though the CO that serves his house is live and three blocks over has fiber.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to chomper87

said by chomper87:

And fiber has:
minimal loss of signal over long distance
bandwidth transfer of 100Gb+ per second:

...

This is a no-brainer decision. This is why Fiber is used ubiquitously in enterprise data connections, undersea transcontinental connections, etc, etc, etc.

And Verizon gets to shift a huge amount of their electric bill to the end user! No more paying for the electricity costs to support the network. Every user now gets to power their own ONT.

Totally selfless move by Verizon.


nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:14

Do you think the CO just magically runs without electricity? The OLT still needs a huge amount of power. The ONT draws less than 30 watts....



Thinkdiff
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-07
Bronx, NY
kudos:11

1 recommendation

reply to nothing00

said by nothing00:

And Verizon gets to shift a huge amount of their electric bill to the end user! No more paying for the electricity costs to support the network. Every user now gets to power their own ONT.

Totally selfless move by Verizon.

Wow.. That's the best argument against FiOS I've seen yet. You really have Verizon all figured out. Spend billions of dollars in infrastructure upgrades to save pennies on their electricity bills.

They should keep repairing 50-100 year old lines.. or you could, you know, use one less lightbulb somewhere in your house, but you're right. That would totally be screwing you over.
--
University of Southern California - Fight On!

TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
reply to CGMason14

She may keep her plan and price but don't expect the same level of service. FiOS is a digital phone product, thus NOT regulated by the State PUC nor the FCC. It's treated as a VoIP product.



nycdave
Premium,MVM
join:1999-11-16
Melville, NY
kudos:14
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by TBBroadband:

She may keep her plan and price but don't expect the same level of service. FiOS is a digital phone product, thus NOT regulated by the State PUC nor the FCC. It's treated as a VoIP product.

100% false. FiOS dial tone for copper elimination customers is still 100% regulated POTS service....


alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT

said by nycdave:

said by TBBroadband:

She may keep her plan and price but don't expect the same level of service. FiOS is a digital phone product, thus NOT regulated by the State PUC nor the FCC. It's treated as a VoIP product.

100% false. FiOS dial tone for copper elimination customers is still 100% regulated POTS service....

Whether it's regulated or it isn't, Verizon High Service Level remains the same there is no change.

TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
reply to nycdave

and in the areas they build out with Fiber- the service is unregulated. by using a fiber backhaul still isn't FiOS- it's the way most areas are still. Hell- AT&T does just that and guess what- its a digital phone product off the VARDs.



alchav

join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT
reply to Thinkdiff

said by Thinkdiff:

said by nothing00:

And Verizon gets to shift a huge amount of their electric bill to the end user! No more paying for the electricity costs to support the network. Every user now gets to power their own ONT.

Totally selfless move by Verizon.

Wow.. That's the best argument against FiOS I've seen yet. You really have Verizon all figured out. Spend billions of dollars in infrastructure upgrades to save pennies on their electricity bills.

Come on Man! Don't you guys know how a Central Office works. There is Talk Battery on Copper Lines, a -48V powered by Batteries on an AC Float System, but there is no saving from the Power Company, a Fiber Network still needs Power. The ONT needs AC Power, more than the C.O. could accommodate.


nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to Thinkdiff

said by Thinkdiff:

Wow.. That's the best argument against FiOS I've seen yet. You really have Verizon all figured out. Spend billions of dollars in infrastructure upgrades to save pennies on their electricity bills.

They should keep repairing 50-100 year old lines.. or you could, you know, use one less lightbulb somewhere in your house, but you're right. That would totally be screwing you over.

I'm all for FIOS, have it myself and love it. But there's a scale, efficiency and moving responsibility of power and maintenance to the user that people frequently dismiss - like you did. "Gee, it's only 30-watts!" Well, gee, it's only a $3.99 bogus line fee on your bill too. Multiply that by millions of customers and soon you're talking real money. It's the 30 watt bulb that always on. The ONT doesn't even qualify as a vampire device since it is always on and never in a power saving state. (Well, that I've noticed anyway.)

In any case, energy wise, FiOS is far less efficient for providing voice phone service to homes when it comes to power. It's much more efficient to keep lines energized in a limited number of locations than it is to distribute mini (and far less robust - 8 hours tops) backups all over the place. And have the customer maintenance the backup too. I'm sure Verizon will see significant drops in the power required to run this system when consumers foot the electric bill for most of the network. Long term, that's part of the reason it's more efficient [for them]. These are the gifts that keep giving once the buildout is complete.

And yes - I do believe that they should be repairing and replacing copper until there's something else that's AS RELIABLE in EMERGENCY situations as copper is. The whole point of regulations requiring high availability service was for safety of life, not because I was without power for two days, felt lonely and wanted to chat with g-ma. It's because I was without power for two days and my idiot neighbor was using candles for light and NOW THEIR HOUSE IS BURNING. And Verizon has neatly escaped this with FiOS. They've basically said, "we're no longer responsible for providing reliable phone service".

I think FiOS is a GREAT product. Suggesting that it replaces POTS is a bridge too far. We don't have anything nearly as reliable that provides safety of life service.

However, in the aftermath of Sandy people have noticed and are considering performance standards for wireless, etc.

So no, I don't think Verizon is screwing people for requiring some equipment in the home to use the Internet or watch TV. But to suggest that it's a nice and neat replacement for POTS is incredibly unnerving.


HD_Ride
Premium
join:2000-10-18
Jerseyastan
Reviews:
·VoicePulse
reply to CGMason14

said by CGMason14:

The funny thing is the letter claimed that fiber optics were more reliable during storms! They kind of left out the part that the ONT requires power and only has an eight hour battery backup.

as you know if it is an aerial install storms don’t discriminate, it will be taken out just like anything else in the storm’s path.


PoloDude
Premium,VIP
join:2006-03-29
Northport, NY
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to nothing00

So you believe that Verizon should rebuild BOTH the copper and FiOS plant in areas that it was wiped out?
And if you believe that FiOS should be made as reliable POTS ? Many could argue that that except for the power limitation, FiOS is FAR more reliable than copper.
--
“My horse fights with me and fasts with me because if he is to carry me into battle, he must know my heart and I must know his or we shall never become brothers.
-Plenty Coups, Chief of the Crow”



PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to CGMason14

nothing00:

a) Almost everyone who still has a home phone uses a cordless phone. Not many people with old school phones that don't require an outlet for power.

b) You are forgetting that POTS isn't always a pure 100% copper run from the CO. A lot of places, including my house, are mostly fiber (non-fios) and have been for decades. The only "copper" for many of us is the line running down the block and into our house.

c) FIOS (regulated voice or "voip") is far far far far far more reliable in my opinion. I am sure if you ask any tech, they will tell you the same thing.
--
1/22/2012 Delegate Count
Newt 25 | Romney 14 | Ron Paul 10 | Santorum 8



nothing00

join:2001-06-10
Centereach, NY
reply to PoloDude

said by PoloDude:

So you believe that Verizon should rebuild BOTH the copper and FiOS plant in areas that it was wiped out?

I believe there should be something as reliable as POTS. Be it POTS itself or ...?

said by PoloDude:

And if you believe that FiOS should be made as reliable POTS ? Many could argue that that except for the power limitation, FiOS is FAR more reliable than copper.

This sounds right. It's probably the power limitation that's holding FiOS back from being a suitable replacement.