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Xtreme2damax

join:2007-03-21
Port Byron, NY

2 edits
reply to Xtreme2damax

Re: Abnormal Pings With Roadrunner

I forgot to mention that the server owners recently moved servers and I get slightly lower ping on the new server. Still seems higher than it should be. I ping around 15ms - 20ms to a Chicago server, my ping to Boston, MA was 17ms when I had Fios, with Time Warner my ping to Boston, MA is 32ms.

Here is a tracert:

Tracing route to 108.61.46.50.choopa.net [108.61.46.50]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 15 ms 7 ms 8 ms gig5-1-5.aubnnybe-rtr002.cny.northeast.rr.com [2
4.24.18.166]
4 8 ms 9 ms 8 ms ae41-0.esyrnyaw-rtr001.cny.northeast.rr.com [24.
58.149.188]
5 33 ms 35 ms 37 ms bundle-ether4.rochnyei-rtr000.nyroc.rr.com [24.5
8.149.252]
6 52 ms 32 ms 24 ms ae1-0.glflnyaq-rtr000.nyroc.rr.com [24.24.21.213
]
7 33 ms 31 ms 31 ms bundle-ether9.albynyyf-rtr000.nyroc.rr.com [24.2
4.21.215]
8 28 ms 32 ms 31 ms ae-5-0.cr0.nyc30.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.74]
9 28 ms 37 ms 28 ms 107.14.17.169
10 31 ms 29 ms 30 ms xe-2-0-3.ar2.ewr1.us.nlayer.net [69.31.94.17]
11 33 ms 33 ms 29 ms vlan-75.ar1.nyc3.us.nlayer.net [69.31.34.128]
12 32 ms 28 ms 39 ms as20473.ae7.ar1.nyc3.us.nlayer.net [69.31.34.62]

13 31 ms 28 ms 28 ms ve20-br1.pnj1.choopa.net [108.61.65.41]
14 28 ms 31 ms 30 ms 108.61.92.162.choopa.net [108.61.92.162]
15 29 ms 31 ms 29 ms 108.61.46.50.choopa.net [108.61.46.50]

Trace complete.

Edit: Heh, my ping is now over 50 to the same server. :/


bluepoint

join:2001-03-24
Your trace tells me your gateway(hop 2) is not responding. It means you have a heavily traffic node which contributes to your laggines. If you ask hob, he will ignore that you have a busy gateway. It's their way of saying, we can't do anything about it since you're reaching your destination in an acceptable time. TWC is not a gaming ISP, they do not understand how important a clean route is for gaming or they are avoiding extra expenses if they split the nodes. If you truly value your gaming, go back to FIOS.


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11
"Your trace tells me your gateway(hop 2) is not responding. It means you have a heavily traffic node which contributes to your laggines. If you ask hob, he will ignore that you have a busy gateway."

It could also mean that it is configured not to respond to pings, which is more likely. As you can see it has no IP address associated to it. This would have nothing to do with traffic.
"TWC is not a gaming ISP, they do not understand how important a clean route is for gaming or they are avoiding extra expenses if they split the nodes. If you truly value your gaming, go back to FIOS. "

Maybe I should call them about the horrific latency in my traces!

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


bluepoint

join:2001-03-24
said by hobgoblin:

It could also mean that it is configured not to respond to pings, which is more likely.
Hob

That's your excuse when the gateway is over sold. It's not responding because it's busy replying to the higher priority requests. If the router is configured not to respond to ping then it will not answer either in the morning when children are at school but it does. What do you think is the possible answer to an expired response to a ping at night?


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11
"That's your excuse when the gateway is over sold. It's not responding because it's busy replying to the higher priority requests. If the router is configured not to respond to ping then it will not answer either in the morning when children are at school but it does."

Are we talking about the Gateway in this thread, all gateways, your gateway or a specific one that you might have in mind.
Do you have an example you can show me?

Over loaded is a better term than over sold by the way.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


bluepoint

join:2001-03-24
said by hobgoblin:

"That's your excuse when the gateway is over sold. It's not responding because it's busy replying to the higher priority requests. If the router is configured not to respond to ping then it will not answer either in the morning when children are at school but it does."

Over loaded is a better term than over sold by the way.

Hob

Overloaded is the result of an over sold node.
Why do you pretend you don't know what I'm talking about?

G0d

join:2012-11-29
I am G0d and don't be mad because you are my example. What does it matter who I work for I speak the truth that apparently you cant handle. This kid has a few options so pay attention. Switch servers, switch isp or learn how to play your video game and stop blaming ping times for the reason your shots miss. That just sounds really silly.

harald

join:2010-10-22
Columbus, OH
kudos:2
reply to bluepoint
said by bluepoint:

said by hobgoblin:

"That's your excuse when the gateway is over sold. It's not responding because it's busy replying to the higher priority requests. If the router is configured not to respond to ping then it will not answer either in the morning when children are at school but it does."

Over loaded is a better term than over sold by the way.

Hob

Overloaded is the result of an over sold node.
Why do you pretend you don't know what I'm talking about?

I can't speak for Hobgoblin, but I will comment on what you know and don't know.

A fiber node is an analog media converter. It cannot be overloaded.

It can be oversold only in the sense that the upstream and downstream channels allocated to the internet have too many users. The same can happen for the TV and Phone channels as well.

Responses to pings and trace routes are handled by the CPU of the router. Routed traffic, that is upstream and downstream packets, places NO demand upon the CPU.


bluepoint

join:2001-03-24
said by harald:

It can be oversold only in the sense that the upstream and downstream channels allocated to the internet have too many users.

Exactly what I meant, there are too many users because they oversold the capacity of the nodes.


bluepoint

join:2001-03-24

1 edit
reply to G0d
said by G0d:

What does it matter who I work for I speak the truth that apparently you cant handle.

It does matter cause you have no b***s when you're hiding anonymously.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:16

1 edit
reply to bluepoint
said by bluepoint:

It's not responding because it's busy replying to the higher priority requests. If the router is configured not to respond to ping then it will not answer either in the morning when children are at school but it does. What do you think is the possible answer to an expired response to a ping at night?

Equipment can be configured to limit the rate of response. Some thing like, answer the first 3 ICMP packets received in a second and drop the rest. When overall ICMP traffic drops, it has enough time to respond to you more reliably. Responses for particular protocols can be configured all sorts of ways.

Adelphia configured their gear to deal reduce ICMP traffic similar to that for years: »Adelphia High Speed Internet »FAQ: Adelphia limits trace routes. How do you work around it? It had all sorts of odd effects on trace routes. Other ISPs do this as well: »Tools FAQ »Why am I seeing so much packet loss in my provider's network? Checking Comcast forum will show they've often done this at their CMTSs as well.

A decent gauge of an overloaded gateway, is the rest of the traceroute. If everything after is unusually slow and maybe dropping packets, then the gateway MAYBE having trouble dealing with the flow of data, then again it could be something like noise impeding data into the gateway. If everything after the gateway looks normal, chances are very high the gateway is running fine and traffic is flowing as it should.

In any case, just using trace routes to judge the performance of a piece of equipment is piss poor troubleshooting.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


bluepoint

join:2001-03-24
Again it depends on what's acceptable to you. The OP is a gamer that wants a clean route to the server. At primetime, when the gateway is overwhelmed of requests the overall latency of gamers are affected. Gamers needed the fastest response it could get. You can tell us there is nothing wrong when the destination is reached in accepted time but it's not as fast as a clean route.
See you keep on telling us equipment can be configured to response to certain request but you are not even sure how it is configured, in other words you just want to divert the problem away from TWC. If you remember my traces right after Sandy? My gateway shows it's timing out then but now at anytime it responds within 30ms. Can you still say it's configured not to respond?


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:16

1 edit
said by bluepoint:

Again it depends on what's acceptable to you. The OP is a gamer that wants a clean route to the server. At primetime, when the gateway is overwhelmed of requests the overall latency of gamers are affected. Gamers needed the fastest response it could get. You can tell us there is nothing wrong when the destination is reached in accepted time but it's not as fast as a clean route.

Read the OPs original complaint again:
said by Xtreme2damax:

It's not that my ping is high, just higher than it should be. I game online and I've been noticing lag and I've been told that my ping is higher than it should be considering the location of the server I am playing on. I live in Auburn, NY and when I ran a speed test my ping to Syracuse, NY is 5ms which is fine I believe. But then I tried running a speed test and connected to the Rochester, NY server where I was getting over 100ms ping.

The game server I connect to is down by New York City and my ping to that is anywhere from 35ms - 50ms, someone that lives in Florida and also plays on the same server gets around the same ping as me. I ping around 10ms - 15ms to a server in Chicago, IL, 90ms to Los Angeles, CA, 55ms to Miami yet my ping connecting to a NY server is higher than it should be. I should be getting around 5 - 15ms.

Pings to SOME NY servers are higher than he thinks they should be because pings to Chicago and other NY sites are lower. Pings to other sites around the country seem good too. To me that seems like more of a routing issue, especially through a specific router or path to that location, that may or not be a TWC issue. Really more example traces to a variety of sites need to be shown. If it were a gateway issue pings to all sites would be affected, but that's not what the OP is complaining of.

said by bluepoint:

See you keep on telling us equipment can be configured to response to certain request but you are not even sure how it is configured, in other words you just want to divert the problem away from TWC. If you remember my traces right after Sandy? My gateway shows it's timing out then but now at anytime it responds within 30ms. Can you still say it's configured not to respond?

You don't know how it's configured either, but you keep latching on to something you don't even understand and ignoring the majority of the other information which points to something else entirely.

You're can't see the forest for the trees...
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.

harald

join:2010-10-22
Columbus, OH
kudos:2
If you drive your car to Poughkeepsie or Kankakee, you are near every location in those cities. The internet doesn't work that way.

Routing is everything. Destination is nothing. In most cities there is very little interconnection between local sites.

If you run trace routes, run them to the sites of interest to you. Comparisons make no sense otherwise.


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:16
said by harald:

If you drive your car to Poughkeepsie or Kankakee, you are near every location in those cities. The internet doesn't work that way.

Routing is everything. Destination is nothing. In most cities there is very little interconnection between local sites.

If you run trace routes, run them to the sites of interest to you. Comparisons make no sense otherwise.

The reason for comparisons is to find the common path and common choke points. You can trace to the same destination from different start points, often there's a common destination path that may show similar issues. You can trace to different destinations from the same start point and check to see if and where in the common path an issue appears.

The goal is to find the problem by running data multiple ways to eliminate as many single data points as you can. Another PC with the same issue, usually eliminates the PC. Another neighbor with the same issue, usually eliminates the home wiring. Another area with the same issue, usually eliminates the local last mile network. Another ISP with same issue, usually eliminates the ISP. etc, etc.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


bluepoint

join:2001-03-24
reply to DrDrew
said by DrDrew:

Read the OPs original complaint again:

You are ignoring the second hop of his tracerts. That's the reason he's having high latency, it's a sign of an oversold node.

said by DrDrew:

You don't know how it's configured either, but you keep latching on to something you don't even understand and ignoring the majority of the other information which points to something else entirely.

You're can't see the forest for the trees...

You are a funny guy, If I'm not mistaken networking is part of your job at TWC. You are expecting me to know how your network is configured? I can not tell you for sure but I have an idea that it's configured not to respond to ICMP packets when it reach capacity because that's how it reacts. I know you know the answer but you ignore to tell us, instead you want to blame it on anything but TWC.
Hobs knows the nodes are overloaded, what else can you add?


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:16

4 edits
said by bluepoint:

You are ignoring the second hop of his tracerts. That's the reason he's having high latency, it's a sign of an oversold node.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm using that information in context of what the reported issue is and experience troubleshooting cable ISP connections.

Why isn't he having high latency EVERYWHERE if his node is "oversold"? Why not to Chicago or other parts of NY state? Why is the latency complaint just about the route to his game server?

said by bluepoint:

You are a funny guy, If I'm not mistaken networking is part of your job at TWC. You are expecting me to know how your network is configured?

Not my network, not part of my job to design, install, configure, maintain, or repair. I've troubleshot network connections for a variety of providers mostly from the end user side over a dozen years though and seen CMTSs not respond to pings for years on TWC, Comcast, Charter, Adelphia and others. Again, just because the CMTS isn't responding to ICMP ping packets full time doesn't mean it's overloaded or having issues routing end user data. You can try other packets to see if it's just ICMP ping packets, try UDP or TCP pings. See if those are answered the same way.

I've learned to see through what seems to be a problem to the uninformed, narrowed down the actual issue, and referred them to the companies and departments that can handle the issues. I'm not here to deflect problems away from TWC or any other companies' responsibility, I'm here to direct people with problems to solutions. If this showed signs of being an overloaded anything I'd say it, right now it doesn't look like it.

What I can add is, more data about the situation from the OP is needed. Pings and tracerts from the outside world back to the user's IP or neighbors would show an overloaded gateway more than a single non responding hop would. It could also show odd routing and/or a variety of other possible issues.
said by bluepoint:

I can not tell you for sure but I have an idea that it's configured not to respond to ICMP packets when it reach capacity because that's how it reacts. I know you know the answer but you ignore to tell us, instead you want to blame it on anything but TWC.

Capacity of WHAT exactly? Capacity of the DOCSIS channel, capacity of the route processor, capacity of the configured ICMP limits, etc., etc.?

I have no clue how it's actually configured. I'm just using previous experience with similar conditions on several ISPs to guess at what is actually going on. More information is needed before blaming anyone for the cause of problem.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


hobgoblin
Sortof Agoblin
Premium
join:2001-11-25
Orchard Park, NY
kudos:11
reply to bluepoint
Bluepoint,

Looking at the very limited trace information from the OP in this thread, nothing is oversold or overloaded.

There have been many discussions on here regarding over selling, if you want an ISP to dedicate bandwidth for every single one of their customers 24/7, then your connection would cost possibly 10 times or maybe more of what it currently costs.

However this is all of topic as this is not the cause of the OP's complaint.

Hob
--
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to bluepoint
said by bluepoint:

You are ignoring the second hop of his tracerts. That's the reason he's having high latency, it's a sign of an oversold node.

Having actually been on a congested "node", I can say that trace route does not look congested. In my case, the "node" was an aggregation router, first IP hop after the DSLAM. The SBC techs referred to it as an, "exhausted router". I saw high latency from that IP hop to the end. OP's trace does not exhibit that characteristic.

What baffles me is that nobody has brought up return path issues. If there is a wide disparity between the forward path (which we can see from the OP's trace) and the return path (which requires a trace from the remote connection back to the OP), that can cause anomalous results.

And if the performance is caused by routing, it may be beyond Road Runner's control.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum