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Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
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2 recommendations

reply to vaxvms

Re: [WIN8] Why such poor task manager?

And no real applications used in the business world. Awesome.


vaxvms
ferroequine fan
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·Charter
said by Badonkadonk:

And no real applications used in the business world. Awesome.

The OP is not in a business world environment.

Badonkadonk
Premium
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL
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1 recommendation

She's sure acting like her OS struggles are life or death.


Blackbird
Built for Speed
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·Frontier Communi..
said by Badonkadonk:

She's sure acting like her OS struggles are life or death.

To her and many other users, it probably feels very much that way. One of the fallout areas when a company like MS changes the user-interface on a flagship product is that experienced users can't find key things the way they're used to, or if they do find them, they can't find their way quickly and intuitively into panel expressions that are familiar (and which they deem necessary). Windows 8 has many such learning-curve adventures. It remains to be seen how readily many folks will adapt, or whether corporations will bite off the very real costs of re-educating their employee users. Conversely, it may be that the product will have its greatest appeal for those who have the least experience using earlier Windows versions. Only time will tell...
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville

dave
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not in ohio
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1 recommendation

Perhaps, but upgrades are self-inflicted.


Blackbird
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·Frontier Communi..
said by dave:

Perhaps, but upgrades are self-inflicted.

In the case of Win 8 versus Win 7 or Vista, I might agree. But users who are still embedded in Win XP will soon enough discover upgrading (or replacing) will be the only route left to them for computing survival, especially for an Internet-connected system. What happens is that things like one's security software, key utility programs, and apps software (including even browsers, Flash, etc) start being released only for newer OSs. At that point, users of old OSs can't keep current with security or apps compatibility.

I've ridden that pony down the road with DOS and Win98FE, and I'm seeing the writing on the wall for WinXP systems. In each case, the learning curve was such that I (and others) almost wished we knew nothing of the old OSs because the newer ways of doing productive work were so different to use and so counterintuitive. What mattered most at such times was the legacy ability or considerations placed into the newer products (plus the ease/intuitiveness of setting them or getting at them)... and I feel that Win 8, for whatever reasons, has fallen notably short in that category.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville

Badonkadonk
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reply to Blackbird
Uh, I've been using windows since Windows 1.0. I think I would be considered an experienced user. Prior to that, I programmed in machine language and assembly and used CP/M. So I've lived through a few changes.

Personally I feel it's more about attitude and flexibility. The sour-pusses who aren't happy unless they're miserable won't like it. Others with a more positive outlook will be like me. Look at it, like it and jump in without pre-hating it and looking for problems at every turn.

Open minded versus closed minded, that's the difference.
--
After reading postings from the self so-called experts on the MS and Apple forums, I just have to shake my head sadly.


vaxvms
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reply to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

experienced users can't find key things the way they're used to, or if they do find them, they can't find their way quickly and intuitively

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
--
CMKRNL


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

said by vaxvms:

said by Blackbird:

experienced users can't find key things the way they're used to, or if they do find them, they can't find their way quickly and intuitively

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Sure you can. You just need a lot of snausages. Bacon flavor works best.

Seriously, I am stunned by the outcry over removing the Start menu. My goodness, it's a nested menu, it's not like the whole UI is now in Urdu.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


Freddy
Premium
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Arlington, VA
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2 recommendations

reply to Badonkadonk
Goober & All,

I agree with your observations. I love Windows 8, and I'm having a ball learning how to use it. Many people don't want to take the time to learn. They're stuck in their old habits.

There is a learning curve with Win8, but it's not that hard. I use Google and this forum to help me in the learning process. If you can't find an answer to your issues on Google, then just ask here. Fun!

Freddy


Blackbird
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reply to Badonkadonk
said by Badonkadonk:

Uh, I've been using windows since Windows 1.0. I think I would be considered an experienced user. Prior to that, I programmed in machine language and assembly and used CP/M. So I've lived through a few changes.

Personally I feel it's more about attitude and flexibility. The sour-pusses who aren't happy unless they're miserable won't like it. Others with a more positive outlook will be like me. ...

Open minded versus closed minded, that's the difference.

With your particular experience, especially with machine languages and CP/M, perhaps you're more "into" playing around with an OS and learning a new user interface. But a lot of users may simply want to get their work done with a minimum of fuss and bother, and a significantly different new user interface can really get in the way of that. Hence the frustration and "life-or-death" reactions. What you describe as open versus closed minded, others might argue is a techno-nerd versus practical usage of a computer to do work the user is accustomed to doing.

I started using, designing, and programming specialized digital systems back in 1973 in the 8008/8080 days, and I've lived immersed in PCs through most of the PC era - and I had a techno-nerd perspective. I loved to play with this kind of stuff. For me, however, another day arrived some time ago when the PC also became a tool to get other things (applications) done, both personal and business. At that point, I began to recognize the down-side user costs of major interface changes in software. When it comes to doing those 'other things', any kind of major interface changes will stand in the way of getting a job done (whatever it is). Sure, I can take the time and effort and I certainly have the capacity, to learn new ways to do the same things I already know how to do almost instinctively. But a cost-benefit question immediately arises in my mind... what is the benefit of learning and adapting to UI changes made for their own sake, particularly if they're largely driven by a software maker's "vision" of his future business direction? The cost is immediate and real: ordinary work just can't be done as quickly, whether it be personal or business, until the re-learning costs are paid. Certainly, with time and experience, that will ease - but by then the costs will be tangible and will have been booked. I've moved from the techo-nerd to the practical side. And I can empathize with users who also come at it from that direction.
--
“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.” A. de Tocqueville


trparky
Apple... YUM
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I like the Start Menu, plain and simple. I've been using it for years and I got it back with Start8. So with this little $5.00 app Windows 8 is so much more usable to me.

There are definite other things that I like about Windows 8 but those are under the hood things, things that you wouldn't ordinarily notice; things that live their lives in kernel-land. I have to hand it to Microsoft for one thing, they have definitely streamlined this OS, trimmed the fat, got rid of the bloat, made it run faster, etc.
--
Tom
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vaxvms
ferroequine fan
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reply to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

But a lot of users may simply want to get their work done with a minimum of fuss and bother

a lot of users are dumb repetitive mindless droids.
Make a little time to learn what's new and how it will make getting the work done quicker and easier. Taking time to fuss and bother to find out how to work around changes is counterproductive.

Brings back memories of the old days...
Why do I need this new computer thing? I've got a typewriter. I've been using it for yearS. I know how to use it. I don't have to learn learn this new computer crap. Commands and control keys and menus and files and folders and floppies and shoeing the damn thing and all that other crap! Why is there a backspace and delete key? Both of them erase a letter . Why are them two of them? That's stupid.
--
CMKRNL

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

1 edit
reply to dave
said by dave:

Perhaps, but upgrades are self-inflicted.

Bullshit. I didn't upgrade. I have a dying XP Pro machine that is almost 7 years old with a bulging capacitor on the mobo and at least one bad fan and inoperable optical disks. So, I had to buy a new machine. I tried to buy a Win 7 machine. Actually bought one from Dell. On the day it was to be shipped, I got an email from Dell saying they were cancelling the order because the video card I ordered (ATI 7870) was no longer available for ANY Windows 7 machines. They said I would have to get a Win 8 machine instead or get a much weaker video card for a Win 7 machine. They said I could not wait for them to get more 7870 cards either as they would never again offer that card on Windows 7.

You try and buy a Win 7 machine. You can't find any except maybe refurbs at Dell outlet. In my case, I purposely bought Win 8 Pro so I would have downgrade rights. That appears to be a paper promise...not real ...not something Microsoft will make the OEMs do. I've spent two weeks trying to get Dell to send me a Windows 8 Pro Reinstallation disk (so I can do a clean install) and send me a Win 7 Pro disk so if I decide to downgrade I can do so. It has been like pulling teeth to get either one. I have spent many HOURS on the phone with Dell, emails with Dell, posting in Dell forum, trying to get these two items. Just a day ago, I was sent two USB keys that say that they are RECOVERY sticks to Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro. I looked at the files on them and could not find a "setup.exe" on either. But I have not yet tried booting to one of them to see...maybe setup is there and I can do a clean install of Win 8 or downgrade to Win 7. But given the gross amount of confusion from Dell employees (including a number of supervisors) speaking to me, and posting in the Dell forums, these USB sticks may only contain Recovery media.

So, it is self inflicted that I just happen to have the bad luck of needing a new machine at this particular time? (I would have purchased this summer when Dell would not have cancelled the order because of the video card as they were selling many of these machines with this card. However, I was not about to purchase a machine that had DEAD PCI e ports. It took Dell 5 MONTHS (and 250+ posts in the Dell forum thread) before they issued a BIOS upgrade to fix the hardware failure problem. After the new BIOS was posted, I still waited to make sure it actually fixed the problem. So, by the time I was feeling that it was safe to purchase this machine it was getting close to the date of Win 8 release).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Badonkadonk
Premium
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Naperville, IL
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Reviews:
·Dish Network
reply to vaxvms
said by vaxvms:

said by Blackbird:

experienced users can't find key things the way they're used to, or if they do find them, they can't find their way quickly and intuitively

You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Truer words . . .
--
After reading postings from the self so-called experts on the MS and Apple forums, I just have to shake my head sadly.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

reply to Blackbird
said by Blackbird:

a lot of users may simply want to get their work done with a minimum of fuss and bother

And indeed, that's what the New UI is aiming to do. If you forget about how you USED to do things, and just do them, it's actually quite effective. It's only a "fuss and bother" if you are trying to use W8 like it was XP*

* or XP emulated in Win7...

Time to move on people. The future is now. Soylent Green is People.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

dave
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not in ohio
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Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Mele20
FWIW, "downgrade rights" is a licensing issue - there's no requirement for anyone to provide you with the software. The assumption is that you already have the software: probably your organization has standardized on "the previous version" and you're buying a few new computers.

In fact, MS seems to explicitly state that you must already have the software:

The media should come from a prior legally licensed version from the OEM or Retail channels.
End users who are licensed separately through Microsoft Volume Licensing (VL) may provide their VL media and key to a system builder to facilitate the downgrade on their own systems.

»www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensi···5W1IvMgh

As far as I remember, it's always worked like this.


Davesnothere
No-BHELL-ity DOES have its Advantages
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START Today!
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2 edits
said by dave:

FWIW, "downgrade rights" is a licensing issue - there's no requirement for anyone to provide you with the software....

 
First, on the original topic, let me go on record as a firm believer in the old addage "Change Isn't Necessarily Progress".

It is not MY saying, but I assure y'all that I get PLENTY of mileage out of it.

Next, on the tangent, it looks to me as if M$ is doing what they always do - avoiding facing the issue head-on - that the silent majority are like me when I don my 'end-user hat' (I am otherwise known as a computer tech), and feel the same way as how I stated above.

We JUST want to get our work DONE, and do not want nor need to learn yet another new way to get to the screen where we do it !

As for the 'downgrade rights' wording, this is fine and fair if you are a member of an organization/corporation where a VL is in effect.

But what if you are (in the big scheme of things) only an individual like myself, and simply want/need a newer/faster PC, however wish to continue using the OS to which you have become accustomed ? (which, BTW, is still most frequently XP)

From what I can tell, M$ is in essence now condoning/blessing the method(s) by which many folks have gotten their installs of an earlier Windows when it WASN'T the earlier Windows.

IMNSHO, if I (as an individual, remember) contact Dell (or whoever) and order a PC where I pay extra for the Biz version of the new OS in order to have these so-called 'downgrade rights', then M$ should at very least issue me (thru the PC vendor) a COA with valid key on it, for the most recent previous Biz OS edition, at the time of purchase of the PC. - If they do not issue media, so be it, as I could always download it somewhere, to which I was alluding in an earlier paragraph.

dave
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said by Davesnothere:

... then M$ should at very least issue me (thru the PC vendor) a COA with valid key on it, for the most recent previous Biz OS edition, at the time of purchase of the PC.

I assume the key provided with the PC would work for Windows 7 from the same vendor - but since I've only does this with volume-licensed versions, I can't say for certain.

The time to verify this is before purchase, though.


Davesnothere
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1 edit
said by dave:

I assume the key provided with the PC would work for Windows 7 from the same vendor - but since I've only does this with volume-licensed versions, I can't say for certain.

 
That has not been MY experience with keys from M$.

Using XP Pro as an example :

I personally have demonstrated that XPP VL keys are not accepted by an XPP OEM install, and vice versa (and the vice versa matters more, if you are only trying to make legit an illegally installed VL OS with an OEM key which is not currently in use elsewhere), and if they are not accepted WITHIN different flavours of a product version, then I quite doubt that they would be accepted in another version.


vaxvms
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reply to Davesnothere
said by Davesnothere:

do not want nor need to learn yet another new way to get to the screen where we do it !

Then don't upgrade to the newest version as soon as it's released and then piss n moan and cry its different and that old is better. If you must buy new hardware and feel compelled to use an old OS and/or an ancient version of some program go to eBay and buy the OLD software. Change does not equal evil. Unwillingness to learn and use change to one's advantage is lame.
--
CMKRNL


Davesnothere
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4 edits
said by vaxvms:

said by Davesnothere:

do not want nor need to learn yet another new way to get to the screen where we do it !

....Change does not [necessarily] equal evil.

Unwillingness to learn and use change to one's advantage is lame.

 
I wasn't specifically stating that change is evil, only that it can often be a sheer waste of time and/or money.

Believe you me, I am one of the LAST to adopt new things, unless I actually see a purpose in them.

On that basis, Win 8 does not qualify, unless you have/buy a tablet, IMNSHO.

So I should forgo the new PC then ? (they cost so little these days )

The process of living by 'small-c conservatism' should not need to be so convoluted.

I agree with you on your final points, but I do not feel that they apply to this particular argument.

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Badonkadonk
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said by Davesnothere:

said by vaxvms:

said by Davesnothere:

do not want nor need to learn yet another new way to get to the screen where we do it !

....Change does not [necessarily] equal evil.

Unwillingness to learn and use change to one's advantage is lame.

 
I wasn't specifically stating that change is evil, only that it can often be a sheer waste of time and/or money.

Believe you me, I am one of the LAST to adopt new things, unless I actually see a purpose in them.

On that basis, Win 8 does not qualify, unless you have/buy a tablet, IMNSHO.

So I should forgo the new PC then ? (they cost so little these days )

The process of living by 'small-c conservatism' should not need to be so convoluted.

I agree with you on your final points, but I do not feel that they apply to this particular argument.

Did you not read vaxvms' response? He said if you want old and outdated, it's there for the purchasing. No one said to forego new hardware or computers. By the machine, wipe it and install whatever floats your boat. Whining about it is lame as well.
--
After reading postings from the self so-called experts on the MS and Apple forums, I just have to shake my head sadly.

OZO
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2 recommendations

said by Badonkadonk:

By the machine, wipe it and install whatever floats your boat.

If he buys machine, he pays for the preinstalled Windows OS. Didn't you know that? Then, wiping it means simple - wasting his money. Is that what you suggest?
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

dave
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·Verizon FiOS
reply to Davesnothere
The way I recall it,

. if you have a VL key for version N, you can use it with the VL cd/dvd for version N-1

. if you have an OEM key for version N, you can use it with the OEM cd/dvd for version N-1

. you can't intermix VL and OEM discs and keys

But it's been quite a while since i last really needed to know this.


Davesnothere
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reply to OZO
said by OZO:

If he buys a machine, he pays for the preinstalled Windows OS. Didn't you know that?

Then, wiping it means simple - wasting his money. Is that what you suggest?

 
Yes, your points were part of my logic.


Davesnothere
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reply to dave
said by dave:

The way I recall it,

. if you have a VL key for version N, you can use it with the VL cd/dvd for version N-1

. if you have an OEM key for version N, you can use it with the OEM cd/dvd for version N-1

. you can't intermix VL and OEM discs and keys

But it's been quite a while since i last really needed to know this.

 
I also have tested and proven that you cannot mix keys from (e.g.) XP Home and Pro, nor among Full versions and Upgrades of same edition.

I do not have enough versions & keys on hand to test everything, but I may have enough to see whether a key from Vista Home Basic OEM would let me install XP Home OEM.

Or is what you said only applicable among Biz/Pro releases ?

dave
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Dunno - I've never tried with 'home' versions.

Badonkadonk
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reply to OZO
said by OZO:

said by Badonkadonk:

By the machine, wipe it and install whatever floats your boat.

If he buys machine, he pays for the preinstalled Windows OS. Didn't you know that? Then, wiping it means simple - wasting his money. Is that what you suggest?

Yup. The question was whether the should forego new hardware (he even said they cost so little).
--
After reading postings from the self so-called experts on the MS and Apple forums, I just have to shake my head sadly.

Mele20
Premium
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Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to dave
What key? Windows 8 has no COA sticker on the side or bottom of the machine or even inside the case. Dell had to change their method of installation with Win 8 and there is an individual key in BIOS now on each Dell Win 8 computer. Will this key work if I try to install Win 7 Pro as a downgrade? No one seems to know for sure.

Dell said they honor downgrade rights and also said, of course, they will send Reinstallation disks (NOT restore to factory default) if requested AFTER you get the machine. You cannot request on the configurator. After I got the machine, filled out the request form on Dell support page, and entered my service tag number that is what started this mess of contradictory emails from Dell, contradictory statements in Dell forum by employees and long time "Rockstar" posters there, frustration from the person who publishes the Dell Wikis on how to do a clean install of various Dell OSes, Dell customer service reps with different answers, and more confusion, Dell hardware and software support techs, and supervisors with even more confusion....it's been quite a ride.

Dell Sm/Med Business Customer Care told me on the phone a few days ago that even if I bought from Member Purchase Program (which is a division of Dell Sm/Med business) that the configurator was required to offer me the Reinstallation disk for Win 8 (and the downgrade Win 7 Pro disk) but it didn't. In fact it said (as it has ALWAYS SAID FOR ABOUT A YEAR NOW) that disks have to ordered AFTER you receive the machine and input your Service tag on the order form. This rep (located in USA) said if they were not offered on the configurator when I purchased that he would have to get with the Dell website team and get them to add that. He also told me that it was not legal for Dell to refuse to offer me Pro Support on the configurator. I was only offered Basic (India ...special fast cue ...specially trained techs just for XPS and Alienware) but I wanted Pro Support as that is in the USA. I did get Pro Support on the first XPS I bought a few days before Win 8 was released. I told the Sm/Med business Customer Care guy this and I told him that Dell was changing their offerings of this computer and their configurator at least 10 times a day during the time I purchased both of them...some of the time, Dell would say the computer was not available for purchase at all...an hour later it would be there ...but only one config to choose...a bit later 7 configs...then back to one...and every choice on the configurator was changing rapidly too.

This happened to many others too who were purchasing, starting about 4 days before Win 8 was released, but before Black Friday which for MPP started on Nov 15. This Sm/Med business Customer Care tech told me that he could not initiate a return request because MPP Customer Care (which is a part of Sm/Med Business Division) is located in India (that was news to me) and they have to do it. I could not reach them and that is how I eventually got to this USA Sm/Med Business Customer Care person. He tried to reach them in India and got the same recording I did that they were closed and to call back during business hours. Like for me, the recording did not state what the business hours were and he had no idea and was appalled at the sloppiness of the recording.

I could go on and on as that is just a taste of what I am going through but you get the idea. Presently, Dell Social Outreach Customer Care person at Round Rock, Texas (who has been with Dell since 1998) has sent me two USB Keys that are supposed to have setup.exe on them for Win 8 Pro and Win 7 Pro. But I can't boot to either and when I examine the files I can't see "setup.exe" anywhere. Plus, the paper inserts with the keys (and the COA sticker on each key) states that they contain "Replacement Recovery Media for Support Purpose Only and not for distribution with a new computer". I had requested REINSTALLATION DVDs but was told Dell was going green and had moved to USB Keys instead and was sent these.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson