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Eumaeus

join:2009-12-10
Yorktown, VA
reply to Krisnatharok

Re: The 5.0.4 / MoP / Druid

Ahh right right! I'll be honest I'm way out of touch with disc atm. Until Monday I hadn't raided with one for ages. (Side note: Disc / spirit shell is absolutely amazing for Force & Verve on Zor'lok in HoF).

I think there are times when both glyphed and non-glyphed would be strong. For example, after phase 2 on Elegon I always go back in first since our other tank has an AoE taunt. The healers are really focusing him since the adds hit like a truck, so I can't rely on them casting as many heals on me for the first little bit while the adds die. The 120k+ self heal from FR was very useful there since I couldn't be sure I'd get enough heals to benefit from the 6s 40% buff.

Another example that comes to mind is Gara'jal. Having one healer in the spirit world would mean I'd only receive heals from one person and they'll also be casting on the other 2 people with the voodoo mask, so I might only get 1 heal during the 6 secs. I think the self heal would outscale the buff in that case also.

I think you're totally right that overall the FR glyph will be better in more fights. I'm just thinking aloud (err, in text) of times that it might be worth swapping the glyph off.
--
Eumaeus, Guardian/Balance Druid
GM - Lux ex Tenebris - Sargeras | Alliance
[6/6] MSV [2/6] HoF



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12

Try this as an experiment (I have not yet done so), run a raid WITHOUT the glyph, and look at total self healing done vs. total raid healing done to you.

If your self-healing is greater than 40% of total healing (minus your own) to you, then run without the glyph. If your self-healing is less (and I think it should be far less) than 40% of total healing done to you, then run with the glyph--varying of course due to fight mechanics.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

One thing I'd like to mention, sort of a psychology of LFR healers, regardless of what your test shows I'd run without the glyph for LFR. The reason is that I see a lot of healers going for meter padding in LFR, so everyone tends to assume that someone else is keeping an eye on the tanks. I've been working on maximizing my effective use of Disc spec via LFR. Almost every time I start my SS building cycle (SS, 6xPoH) I have to cut it short to PW:S/penance/flash heal the tanks before they go splat. Now... if you have a pocket healer, then you are golden no matter which way you glyph...
--
Guild leader of Pride and Ego (US:Nathrezim)
Good times with Great people in the Best way to spend $15/mo.

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.



Eumaeus

join:2009-12-10
Yorktown, VA
reply to Krisnatharok

I'm pretty sure that you're correct that the overall healing received will be higher with the glyph. The area that I'm wondering if it's worth swapping on/off the glyph are moreso for fights were there will be a time when burst healing is beneficial during a time where enough healers are otherwise occupied to where you aren't getting enough out of the 40% at a time where you need it most.

The best example I can think of atm is probably gara'jal where 2 others are taking large damage with you due to voodoo masks but there will only be 1 healer casting on you & them due to the spirit world needing the 2nd healer.

The other issue with that experiment is that comparing your self healing to 40% of the total healing done to you assumes 100% uptime of FR. I don't know that there's a way to isolate 40% of only the healing received during FR buff uptime. It's this amount of healing that you'd have to compare to unglyphed self-healing to get the total healing received impact value. Does that sound correct, or am I thinking incorrectly?
--
Eumaeus, Guardian/Balance Druid
GM - Lux ex Tenebris - Sargeras | Alliance
[6/6] MSV [2/6] HoF



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Immer

said by Immer:

I see a lot of healers going for meter padding in LFR

What? Noooooooooooooo neeeeeeeeeever.

I hit 78k HPS on the priest last night on the tornado boss in HoF, died, was brez'd, and still ended as top heals. I was on the verge of getting Arch to shelve his monk for the rest of the expac.

Spirit shield just on the tank is hacks.

Although I have run into instances (both as the disc healer and the bear tank) where the bear does not gain rage when asborbing hits with a certain type of shield, not sure if it's the regular shield from FH/heal/GH or just the spirit shield.

Have you seen anything like that?
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Eumaeus

join:2009-12-10
Yorktown, VA

We don't gain rage from being hit anymore. It's all self generated via auto attacks and mangle. That's what's caused the huge shift to crit/hit/expertise stat priority (even > agility in gemming by many accounts I've read).



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Eumaeus

Like I said, the ability to control the healing via vanilla FR may outweigh the total increased healing glyphed FR, and on some fights you might need to decide.

I would rather use a combo of Survival Instincts or Might of Ursoc (+50% max hp) + Renewal (~30% hp restored instantly) as an oh-shit button, then rotate SD, Barkskin, and the DMC trinket as needed to avoid damage, all on top of keeping the glyphed FR up.

But YMMV with your playstyle. The hit-capped/crit build is all about controlling the pace of incoming damage, whereas the avoidance mitigation build is about reducing all damage received, but it gives less control of when you take the big hits.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Eumaeus

said by Eumaeus:

We don't gain rage from being hit anymore. It's all self generated via auto attacks and mangle. That's what's caused the huge shift to crit/hit/expertise stat priority (even > agility in gemming by many accounts I've read).

Weird, then how come I've sat there and thrashed/swiped multiple targets and gained no rage? Does it have to crit to count? The whole change is blegh anyways, but I do it anyways (hit/exp/crit) because IMHO it's the better way to tank. Stam/mastery/dodge just isn't as viable right now.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Krisnatharok

I haven't worried about it much in MoP because I haven't had to heal many bears. Now that tiermordius is bear tanking more often, I'll pay closer attention to his rage generation. Hopefully its just the PW:S that is gimping rage generation so I have some control over when I use it. Aegis and SS... ugh.

edit: cool... so I can heal away, then. =)



Eumaeus

join:2009-12-10
Yorktown, VA
reply to Krisnatharok

I'm not positive (stuck at work with the 'sense), but it could be that only the crits on autoattack and mangle provide the 15 rage for critting. You definitely shouldn't be gaining rage from non-crit thrash and swipe. I'm just not positive about crits on those abilities.

I've definitely been eyeballing the SI glyph. Despite losing 6 secs for only a 1m cooldown reduction I can see times when that would be really perfect for mitigating 1-2 huge attacks more often.

I worry about the 5m cooldown on glyphed ursoc, but combined with renewal it would be an enormous heal. Kinda turns it into a once per fight instead of 2-3 times per fight ability but that may be perfectly fine.
--
Eumaeus, Guardian/Balance Druid
GM - Lux ex Tenebris - Sargeras | Alliance
[6/6] MSV [2/6] HoF



JB
Stay Gold
Premium
join:2009-05-14
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Eumaeus

said by Eumaeus:

(Side note: Disc / spirit shell is absolutely amazing for Force & Verve on Zor'lok in HoF).

Yes, because it is glitched right now. (SS+Inner focus = 100% crit). They nerfed the shit out of F&V 3 weeks ago. Are you relying on a glitched disc priest for that fight?

said by Eumaeus:

I think you're totally right that overall the FR glyph will be better in more fights. I'm just thinking aloud (err, in text) of times that it might be worth swapping the glyph off.

FR Glyph is and will always be a situational glyph. As of now, I see most guardians not using it.
--
I know you are the only one
A little taste of heaven
You know I am The only one
Your bitter taste of hell


Eumaeus

join:2009-12-10
Yorktown, VA

Nah we had a disc priest join this week to fill an opening and we were just amused at how silly it made the fight. Previously we were 2 healing it with mistweaver and hpally. I was balance then and would contribute tranquility during one of the final phase F&V (pre-nerf) to help out as needed.



Feralmordius

join:2011-01-18

1 recommendation

reply to Eumaeus

Here is the Rage gen numbers.

Rage

Rage is no longer generated from taking damage. Instead Guardians now generate Rage from landing attacks on our enemies. Once 5.0.4 hits, Rage will come from two different kinds of actions. I like to call these Direct and Indirect Rage Generation. You’ll see why in a minute. You will gain Rage from performing one of the following actions (Direct Generation):

[Mangle] generates 5 Rage when used (or 7 if you have the talent [Soul of the Forest]). Mangle has a 6 second cooldown.

Auto-Attacks generate ~10.8 Rage per attack that deals damage. Your base auto-attack speed is 2.5 seconds.

[Enrage] generates 20 Rage when used, and an additional 10 Rage over the next 10 seconds. Enrage has a 60 second cooldown.

Critical Strikes of either Mangle or Auto-Attack will generate 15 Rage.

Shifting into [Bear Form] will set your Rage to 10.

Before going any further you should already be able to tell that the overwhelming bulk of our Rage Generation comes from Critical Strikes. Therefore our goal should be trying to maximize the number of those we get. The easiest way to do this is to simply stack Critical Strike Rating. Not only is that an awesome stat by itself, but while in Bear form we get an extra 50% Critical Strike Rating. This makes Critical Strike the single best Rage Generation statistic to stack early on.

Using one of the following abilities will allow you to use something that generates Rage (Indirect Generation):

[Incarnation] removes the cooldown on any offensive Bear ability for 30 seconds. This includes Mangle, meaning you can press Mangle every global cooldown to generate the maximum amount of Rage. Incarnation has a 3 minute cooldown.

[Berserk] removes the cooldown on Mangle and causes it to strike up to 2 extra targets for 10 seconds. Berserk has a 3 minute cooldown. It should be noted that at the time of this writing the extra targets struck are not causing any Rage to be generated. Whether this is intended or not is unknown.

Landing a hit with [Lacerate], [Thrash], or [Faerie Fire] has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown on Mangle.

Temporary buffs such as Heroism/Bloodlust or Trinket Procs can also indirectly increase Rage Generation by increasing Haste, Critical Strike, Agility, Hit, or Expertise. Although I don’t recall the last time I saw a temporary Hit or Expertise proc/buff.

You can probably tell that the most common of these either reset or completely remove the cooldown on Mangle. While this also increases our DPS, both Incarnation and Berserk should be held in reserve as Rage cooldowns.

»theincbear.com/forums/viewtopic.···e6ca2305
--
Tiermordius on Nathrezim Server (US)
Main Tank for Pride and Ego