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TheHox

join:2012-05-31

1 edit

1 recommendation

6.6mile PTP link - hardware?

Again, Since I am still somewhat new to this, what suggestions for hardware for a 6.6 mile PTP link.

I have 2 100MB fiber connections on the tx side, looking to connect to one of them at the rx side (my house). I have a 60ft tower at the tx and a 75ft tower at the rx. Both sides just clear the trees and should have a LOS.

Intentions are using this for internet at my house, so I don't need all 100MB, but I'll take as much as I can get.

Going at least 5ghz, Powerbridge do the trick? There is another WISP in the area that has some links around town so 2.4ghz Im sure is noisy, 5ghz could be as well. Which would have good distance but be less susceptible to noise?
Figure I'd spend no more than $500

Newbie

join:2011-04-18

1 recommendation

IMO the powerbridges are not worth it, I would use 2 NanobridgeM5 25dbi dishes, if your fresnel zone is clear you can push quite a bit of traffic over these.

Depending on what speeds you need, you can do 20, 30, or 40 mhz channel width assuming the high gain will keep interference low.

FWIW 20mhz typically can get me 50+mbps, 30/40 both get me closer to 70-80+.

Power bridges are also not certified for DFS useage, Nanobridges are. But at 6miles I dont know that this would matter.

jim_p_price7

join:2005-10-28
Henryetta, OK
reply to TheHox
+1 on the Nanobridge M5 25. If you need to know how the shot looks, drop the TX/RX coords in here and we can help you with a link analysis.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

1 recommendation

reply to TheHox
Ive done 11k links with nanobridge 25s, signal in the low 60s. You crank that to 40mhz wide and you will get a pile of BW thru it.

less than 200 bux a link.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to TheHox
+1 on the NanoBridge 5M.

Hard to beat that price/performance ratio...


treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to TheHox
I was always been told to use rocket dish 30dbi and rocket m5 anything over 3mile PTP because I was going to use NBM25 for my 4mile link to deliver 100meg due to speed and signal...


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
said by treichhart:

I was always been told to use rocket dish 30dbi and rocket m5 anything over 3mile PTP because I was going to use NBM25 for my 4mile link to deliver 100meg due to speed and signal...

Dont believe everything ppl tell you In a PtMP situation, -71 17,000 meters, NBM25 CPE, Rocket/19DBi AP.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
reply to TheHox
At that distance either powerbridge or rocket. Nanobridge is a mistake.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
Click for full size
said by wirelessdog:

At that distance either powerbridge or rocket. Nanobridge is a mistake.

Why would it be a mistake? Here is a 6 mile link. both ends NBM5. Sure its 10mhz but I would not anticipate any issues running 20/40mhz
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to TheHox
Hell even at 10mhz, that would be a huge improvement to what I have now.

While I'd love more bandwidth, that is not my main concern actually, consistent ping times and no packet loss is what matters the most.
I'd take 10mbps with solid pings under 35ms over 40mbps w/jitter of 10ms+ and packet loss.

I'll order some nanobridges tomorrow. What you guys using for outdoor cable/ends? ubnt toughcable or some other brand?


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
said by TheHox:

I'll order some nanobridges tomorrow. What you guys using for outdoor cable/ends? ubnt toughcable or some other brand?

I hear the toughcable is improved now.

I use whatever outdoor cable and connections the local supplier has.

PS: The above link I posted does 40 megabit UDP one direction.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to TheHox
Click for full size
So I finally got around to setting this link up.

At the moment when scanning for the AP, it only shows up half the time, and when it does, signal strength is -90.

How critical is aiming on these? I have 2 NanoBridge M5s with 25dbi dishes on both ends.

Tomorrow I'll re check the horizontal alignment. I've been using Google Earth printouts of the path, using physical landmarks for reference, but I'm not sure how to calculate this vertical alignment.
Anyone?


TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
According to the datasheet the beams on the M2 and M5 are somewhat narrow (maybe 10 degrees? it doesnt say explicitly), so good alignment is somewhat critical to get the best performance from the link.

Ideally you'd have people at both ends panning (one at a time of course) simply to save you having to drive back and forth between sites.

Move side to side until you find the sweet spot at one end, then do the same at the other end.

Then up and down at one end until you hit the sweet spot, then the same at the other end.

By the end of that your link is as good as it will probably ever be.

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to TheHox
At 6.5 miles these are not going to be so sensitive that you get that poor of a signal. You are either way off at one side or the other (or both), or you have an issue with Fresnel. Make sure you are using them in 5.8Ghz range as well. 5.4 will lower your TX powers due to FCC regs.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
I'm betting there are trees in the fresnel. I was hoping the direct shot was at least clear.

How critical is keeping the 1st and 2nd fresnel clear?

The tower height at the AP location is at its full height. I suppose if this does not work I'll have to try 2.4 or even 900, but those are fairly noisy here I bet.

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
reply to TheHox
Or you could switch to rockets as I originally suggested.

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
Hey I'll try anything, I'm still learning.

Unfortunately I think my tower heights are very close to some tree heights and I have no way to know for sure if I am clearing them or not. Besides trial and error. I wish I could add a larger tower but that just can't happen.

gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to TheHox
Yeah that's going to be tough. All I can suggest is to make sure your up/down tilt are as close as you can get before raising that mast. Can you even see the CPE site at the top of the tower? If you can't, that mast probably isn't going to get you over it.

Also, if that's CAT5 all coiled up on the top of that tower, and it's for your radio, shorten it up. That's an EMF magnet during an electrical storm.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
No. At 6.6miles and both small ROHN25 towers I can't see anything.

Yea there are a bunch of old cat5 wires up there from other antennas from our previous WISP business that we sold off 7yrs ago. I'll have to clean that up.

Whats my odds of 900mhz working, if I am shooting between 2 POPs that have 3 900 sectors each, serving about 200 customers in all directions?

wirelessdog

join:2008-07-15
Queen Anne, MD
kudos:1
said by TheHox:

Whats my odds of 900mhz working, if I am shooting between 2 POPs that have 3 900 sectors each, serving about 200 customers in all directions?

Zilch.

Get large 5ghz grids with bullets or use Rockets but looking at your tower configuration you will have wind load issues with Rockets.

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
Yea even those 25dbi dishs worried me a bit. This tower at the AP side shown above can't go any higher, as there is no room to run guy wires.

I'll try and align these a bit more to get something better, might have to try 2.4 I suppose.


treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to TheHox
@ TheHox how tall is that tower?

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
5 full sections + 1 topper section
So 60ft, but it is in the ground 4ft deep so 56ft.

The pole on top adds another 5-6feet or so?


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to TheHox
That's a lot of Rohn 25 there .

2.4 might be better.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to TomS_
said by TomS_:

According to the datasheet the beams on the M2 and M5 are somewhat narrow (maybe 10 degrees? it doesnt say explicitly), so good alignment is somewhat critical to get the best performance from the link.

This. ^

The beamwidth is narrow...half-assing the alignment will result in poor performance.

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
The alignment is currently half-assed at best. I'll be playing with it more today.

Funny thing is I can pick up other APs in the -80s all the time, that are not even aiming at me, but I can't see the AP that I do have aiming to my station side half the time at all.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
You might be in a deep null.

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
reply to TheHox
Finally had the balls to climb up to the tower just now to try and re aim the station side. While blowing in the wind freezing my fingers off, I tried to aim it while scanning for the AP on my phone.

My AP I only see briefly once in a while on the Scans page, with -90 or so power. But I see 4 other APs that are near my APs, (6+ miles away) that are not even aimed at me.
WPA2 -84 / -89 5.745 149
WPA2 -74 / -88 5.805 161
WPA2 -90 / -96 5.74 148
NONE -84 / -89 5.765 153

As of now I don't even see my AP at all, I've hit refresh/scan like 50 times in the past few minutes and I haven't seen my AP once.

I would think since mine is aimed at me I would see stronger power levels than others that are not even closed to being aimed in my direction.

Which brings me to my next theory....

While installing the AP side, I dropped the antenna piece. It fell about 50ft onto a roof that had about 5" of snow on it, then slid off and fell on the grass below that had 5" of snow as well. I figured it was destroyed, but it appeared to be ok, but did have a tiny bit of snow by the ethernet jack. After cleaning the snow out and trying to dry it, I plugged it in, inside, and it booted and I was able to access the admin page, but I noticed the antenna was very warm, almost hot. Hot enough that if I was to take off the plastic casing, I would probably burn my hand on the pieces inside. So how warm do these get in normal operation conditions? I havn't felt it since it has been outside, but I felt the station side just now and it didn't feel warm at all. (Obviously it is about 25F outside right now)
( this »i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2NFgxNjAw/···0_35.JPG )

I'm wondering if some water got inside and damaged the antenna. It may work but performs very poorly? Or are these normal to get pretty warm.

Thanks again

Looking towards the AP
»sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-s···19_o.jpg


treichhart

join:2006-12-12
Is this the same 56-60ft tower or is this different tower size height?

TheHox

join:2012-05-31
The AP side is the 56-60ft.
The station side, which is where I am working at now, is 70ft