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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to bt

Re: [Serious] Nurse who transferred prank call commits suicide

said by bt:

said by DKS:

said by HiVolt:

Sad story and all, but the woman must have had other problems if this triggered suicide...

Nothing like blaming the victim...

That's not blaming the victim. It's stating that there was probably more than this one single factor.

It's one hell of a leap in logic to go from "other problems" to "victim's fault".

Sorry, that's not true. The nurse may have had "other problems" which are none of our business. The radio jocks did not take into account the potential harm their stupidity might do. To suggest the nurse might have "other problems" is to suggest some culpability on her part, where there was none. That's blaming the victim.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1

It isn't suggesting anything of the sort. It's suggesting there may have been other problems. Nowhere at all does he say "other problems that were the nurse's fault". That's your own flawed conclusion to the statement.

It isn't absolving the DJs, either. They deserve their share of the blame. But assuming that share is 100% of the blame without asking if there were other contributing factors is not right. If other such factors exist, it doesn't suddenly make this one okay.

Saying it's blaming the victim is pure BS, and if there actually were other contributing factors it's tantamount to absolving them and their causes from blame. It's saying that only the very last factor matters, which is just as stupid as saying that there were other factors so the last one doesn't matter (which nobody here is saying, despite your attempt to frame it that way).



Hydraglass
Premium
join:2002-05-08
Kingston, ON
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

Sorry, that's not true. The nurse may have had "other problems" which are none of our business. The radio jocks did not take into account the potential harm their stupidity might do. To suggest the nurse might have "other problems" is to suggest some culpability on her part, where there was none. That's blaming the victim.

Sorry but suicide is almost always the "victim"'s fault. It's selfish. If it's due to untreated medical issues that is still on the suicidee for not seeking help. I have zero empathy, sympathy, or good will toward anyone that commits suicide (but feel terrible for their families of course). I've been the unfortunate "family member" of 3 of them in the last 10 years, and a close friend of 2 more -- and it's pissed me off every time. I don't feel bad for them - I want to kick their ass. Repeatedly. Every one of them knew they needed help and just threw every effort to get them counseling, therapy, help, etc right back in our faces.

If this woman was that easily driven to suicide by a couple of phone pranksters from half a world away, she had other problems. Whether she sought out treatment or not, that's on her and those around her.

The ONLY way suicide is not the suicidee's fault is if they are already seeking help or treatment and someone drives them to it and counsels them into suicide. But that's not suicide - that's homicide. See the case of the girl in Ottawa that drowned herself after being counseled to suicide by some creep online - who knew she was suicidal and told her that yes, she should end it, the world would be better without her - repeatedly. That's reprehensible.

Two DJ's making fun of royalty and pretending to be the queen? There's no way they knew a nurse would go over the edge about it - I'm sorry for her family of course - but - it's a standard phone prank played by radio and comic types the world around for decades.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8

said by Hydraglass:

If this woman was that easily driven to suicide by a couple of phone pranksters from half a world away, she had other problems. Whether she sought out treatment or not, that's on her and those around her.

I'm going to use your comment to make a general response directed to several others as well, all of whom seem to be jumping on this "blame the victim" bandwagon.

There's a lot that we don't know here -- that much is clear. But instead of assuming that there are all kinds of things we don't know about her mental health, maybe it's more realistic to think that there are all kinds of things we don't know about what happened to her in the aftermath of this. Just as a for instance, suppose the hospital had basically told her that her career was over -- not just in that hospital, but effectively anywhere in the medical system. A career that she had trained for all her life and was probably performing exceptionally, since she was assigned to this case. Do you have any idea what that can do to a person? Really, do you?
--
"The promoters of the global economy see nothing odd or difficult about unlimited economic growth or unlimited consumption in a limited world."
Wendell Berry


shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

It doesn't even need to be any of that. The hospital or royal family gave no indication that they were pissed at her. To me, this sounds like a woman who took deep pride in her duty to the royal family and felt that she had horribly failed them.



hm

@videotron.ca

said by shaner:

The hospital or royal family gave no indication that they were pissed at her.

Yes they did. Hospital said she was to be removed from duty and to undergo further training. Hospital stated she wasn't fired though.


Hydraglass
Premium
join:2002-05-08
Kingston, ON
reply to Wolfie00

said by Wolfie00:

said by Hydraglass:

If this woman was that easily driven to suicide by a couple of phone pranksters from half a world away, she had other problems. Whether she sought out treatment or not, that's on her and those around her.

I'm going to use your comment to make a general response directed to several others as well, all of whom seem to be jumping on this "blame the victim" bandwagon.

There's a lot that we don't know here -- that much is clear. But instead of assuming that there are all kinds of things we don't know about her mental health, maybe it's more realistic to think that there are all kinds of things we don't know about what happened to her in the aftermath of this. Just as a for instance, suppose the hospital had basically told her that her career was over -- not just in that hospital, but effectively anywhere in the medical system. A career that she had trained for all her life and was probably performing exceptionally, since she was assigned to this case. Do you have any idea what that can do to a person? Really, do you?

The hospital has already released several statements that they had no disciplinary actions toward her, and that everyone there felt equally bad... in the meantime even the royals have said they had no ill will or request for discipline toward any of the staff at the hospital and felt bad for them as well. It would seem it would have been in her best interest to just lay low for a few days, take some sick leave, let it blow over, and head back - but even on top of that - how many people have been booted from their careers and done just fine - most of us at one point or another no? We all have no problem making fun of those 5 (out of 50,000) stock investors who jump out of their high rise offices on the day the market plunges...

Sorry, but I'm sure there was plenty of support available for her to get through this and have not abandoned her kids and family.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to shaner

I believe that the royal family would have had the grace not to make a fuss about it. I'm much less sure that the hospital was as "supportive" as they claim, and, as already said, the British media can be a bitch.

There are lessons here on several levels. One thing that's clear to me is that a "prank" like this is way over the bounds of good taste. It's one thing to call a politician pretending to be another politician (as has happened often, and often to good effect!) but this is altogether too personal, and moreover, it invites the breach of medical confidentiality. The dipshits who made the call appeared to be too stupid to understand this.


bt

join:2009-02-26
canada
kudos:1

said by Wolfie00:

I believe that the royal family would have had the grace not to make a fuss about it.

Prince Charles has even made jokes about it, before this latest piece of news.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Prince Charles is a lot more easy-going and of a "live and let live" attitude than many people know.

Prince Philip is the grouch of the family.



donoreo
Premium
join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

said by Gone:

Prince Charles is a lot more easy-going and of a "live and let live" attitude than many people know.

Prince Philip is the grouch of the family.

Yes, but apparently he does have a good sense of humour to balance the grouchiness.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to Hydraglass

said by Hydraglass:

how many people have been booted from their careers and done just fine - most of us at one point or another no?

That was just an example. We don't know if that happened, but if something like that did, or if she thought that it was inevitable, your armchair psychoanalysis is flawed. A critical determinant of our ability to cope with a major setback is the extent to which we're conditioned to it over time. Something that happens completely out of the blue is far more devastating than something that we've been expecting for years.

Incidentally, the opposite is true, too. Studies have shown that many lottery winners go on to lead surprisingly miserable lives because the incredible high of "the day they won the lottery" leads to expectations that real life inevitably cannot fulfill. Whereas people who gradually become wealthy can realistically cope.
--
"The promoters of the global economy see nothing odd or difficult about unlimited economic growth or unlimited consumption in a limited world."
Wendell Berry

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

1 recommendation

reply to Hydraglass

said by Hydraglass:

The hospital has already released several statements that they had no disciplinary actions toward her, and that everyone there felt equally bad...

Of course they are saying that now. But her initial interaction was probably along the lines of hospital administration trying to find ways to shift the blame to her. They just never got the chance.

If they are anything like the morally bankrupt bunch that run the hospital in Peterborough she would have been quickly dispatched once the public scrutiny stopped.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Hydraglass

said by Hydraglass:

Sorry but suicide is almost always the "victim"'s fault. It's selfish.

And that is such utter, complete nonsense, it does not even deserve comment. Suicide is usually the result of a pre-existing medical condition and often a co-morbid outcome (cultural factors excepted, which are not at play here).
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

It doesn't even need to be any of that. The hospital or royal family gave no indication that they were pissed at her. To me, this sounds like a woman who took deep pride in her duty to the royal family and felt that she had horribly failed them.

Quite right. The responsibility of care in nursing (at least among those who are competent) is every bit as intense as that of a police officer or the military. It's not called a "sisterhood" for nothing. And given that this nurse was a part of a hospital who was serving the Royal Family, she would have to be not only clinically top notch, but epitomize all the values of dedication and commitment which come with nursing quality.

Maternity nurses are also a special breed. The best are every bit as intense and professional as ICU or ER nurses.

I recall talking with one nurse after a Code Pink call in our hospital. She downplayed her role in the situation, which was life-threatening. "Yes, the little guy just didn't want to do what he needed to do, so we had to help him a little bit." That was it. Very humble. But what they did (and I know this for a fact) was quite remarkable. It saved the child's life.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to hm

said by hm :

said by shaner:

The hospital or royal family gave no indication that they were pissed at her.

Yes they did. Hospital said she was to be removed from duty and to undergo further training. Hospital stated she wasn't fired though.

Evidence?
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

peterboro
Avatars are for posers
Premium
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

Quite right. The responsibility of care in nursing (at least among those who are competent) is every bit as intense as that of a police officer or the military. It's not called a "sisterhood" for nothing. And given that this nurse was a part of a hospital who was serving the Royal Family, she would have to be not only clinically top notch, but epitomize all the values of dedication and commitment which come with nursing quality.

I am also in line with that reasoning. On the other hand I am very curious as to the interaction she had with with administration before she left the hospital.

PX Eliezer7
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms
reply to DKS

The nurse was from India and I believe had been in the UK for only 4 years. Cultural differences and embarrassment likely also played a role.

This news story says the radio station [continues] to brag about the prank call.

»daily.bhaskar.com/article/WOR-TO···NOR.html

The radio network CEO also said (in another news story) that there was nothing illegal done.

I don't know. In any civilized country if someone calls me and pretends to be someone else (even a regular Elizabeth not Queen Elizabeth) for the purpose of deception, and if they broadcast that deception on the air, then surely that is violating [some] kind of law....laws regulating phone recording if nothing else.

In a Commonwealth Realm such as Australia, impersonating the Queen herself may be covered under some additional law, too.



urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable

said by PX Eliezer7:

The nurse was from India and I believe had been in the UK for only 4 years. Cultural differences and embarrassment likely also played a role.

9 years ago and I doubt 'cultural differences' has anything to do with anything. Having the entire world scrutinize a woman's actions is more than likely the primary motivator here...

All the latest stories and people interviewed paint a picture of a caring, intelligent, woman who was good at her job and was doing professionally well in London. Family members in India said that she called every Sunday without fail and they just spoke with them a day prior and no issues were mentioned. So far there doesn't seem to be anything that suggests there's an alternative reason for what happened outside of the pressure of this event.

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

said by urbanriot:

said by PX Eliezer7:

The nurse was from India and I believe had been in the UK for only 4 years. Cultural differences and embarrassment likely also played a role.

9 years ago and I doubt 'cultural differences' has anything to do with anything. Having the entire world scrutinize a woman's actions is more than likely the primary motivator here...

All the latest stories and people interviewed paint a picture of a caring, intelligent, woman who was good at her job and was doing professionally well in London. Family members in India said that she called every Sunday without fail and they just spoke with them a day prior and no issues were mentioned. So far there doesn't seem to be anything that suggests there's an alternative reason for what happened outside of the pressure of this event.

I hope they have their asses fired and get black listed from ever working in the industry again.
--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X



shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB

1 recommendation

said by Warez_Zealot:

I hope they have their asses fired and get black listed from ever working in the industry again.

Why? For making a prank call? Which is pretty much an industry staple in the morning DJ world?

Look, there is absolutely no way these two morons could have predicted this particular outcome. No possible way. Now, I call them morons because, frankly, the original joke simply wasn't funny. But, the joke really had no malicious intent whatsoever, and once again, they never, ever could have envisioned this outcome. And there wouldn't be calls for their heads if this woman had not killed herself.

Hey, even the venerable Peter Funt of Candid Camera fame sides with the DJ's.
»www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/opini···ml?_r=1&

This is a good viewpoint as well. Even Prince Charles initially laughed off the prank and kind of validated it as somewhat amusing.

»www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-a···29q.html

Look, I think her suicide is the tragedy, not the prank call. I want there to be an honest discussion about mental health issues, and the underlying reasons for suicide and what can be done to prevent these kind of tragedies before they even happen. That is the discussion we should be having, not one about whether these DJ's are criminally responsible for the choice someone else made. Period.

If these DJ's are responsible for this poor woman's death, then the sanctimonious crowd needs to step back and think about the times in their lives they may have even snickered at another person's misfortune. Like watching America's Funniest Home Videos for example.

This was not a prank gone wrong. This was the management of a mental health issue gone wrong. Frankly, the more I think about it, the very hospital this woman worked for is more culpable in her death than the DJ's are. They had direct involvement with her immediately following the incident and chose to leave her alone instead of supervising her for possible suicidal tendencies. Clearly, they felt the prank was harmless as well, and they are the health professionals.
--
I'm a man, but I can change. If I have to. I guess.

»shaner38.blogspot.com/

PX Eliezer7
Premium
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Hutt River
kudos:13
Reviews:
·callwithus
·voip.ms

1 recommendation

said by shaner:

Why? For making a prank call? Which is pretty much an industry staple in the morning DJ world?

This is more of a comment than a full disagreement. But this station had been in trouble several times before. And while I agree that the DJ's had no idea what this would lead to, they could not have thought that it would lead to anything good.

Further, DJ's can and should amuse their audiences with intelligent discussions, not prank calls.

Here in metro NYC/NJ we have several prominent talk radio stations. I listen to a few of them. And I can't recall a prank call. No sane person wants the FCC or CRTC to come down on them.

said by shaner:

And there wouldn't be calls for their heads if this woman had not killed herself.

Well, actually there [were] even before she killed herself. Impersonating the Queen would be badly viewed even in the US, it's that much worse in a country where she [is] the Queen. And this was a call to a HOSPITAL about a pregnant woman who was ill !!

said by shaner:

Hey, even the venerable Peter Funt of Candid Camera fame sides with the DJ's.

Well, he and his dad made a fortune by being jerks. I'm not surprised.

You wouldn't expect the mob to criticize gambling, bootlegging, or loansharking, would you?

said by shaner:

If these DJ's are responsible for this poor woman's death, then the sanctimonious crowd needs to step back and think about the times in their lives they may have even snickered at another person's misfortune. Like watching America's Funniest Home Videos for example.

I absolutely hate that show. It is a symbol of our cultural decadence.

My wife watches it, which is the only reason I see it sometimes. And one of the recent videos was a guy making a crank call---while driving his car, no less---to a butcher store. Yes, they GLORIFIED an adult making a crank call, which used to be considered anti-social behavior.

said by shaner:

Frankly, the more I think about it, the very hospital this woman worked for is more culpable in her death than the DJ's are. They had direct involvement with her immediately following the incident and chose to leave her alone instead of supervising her for possible suicidal tendencies.

That's a bit of blaming the victim: the hospital's administration and staff were victimized too. And this woman apparently gave no evidence of a problem. Should they have forced her onto antidepressants?

-----------------------------

I'm not a prude. I like comedy from the Marx Brothers to George Carlin to SNL, from Benny Hill to Monty Python.

But this wasn't funny, just downright malicious. And stupid, considering the other violations done by this station....

But while I don't think those Australians could envision what would come, and while they may be responsible only for a violation of broadcast law (not for a death), the two of them need to STFU and disappear for a couple of years.


Wolfie00
My dog is an elitist
Premium
join:2005-03-12
kudos:8
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

This was not a prank gone wrong. This was the management of a mental health issue gone wrong. Frankly, the more I think about it, the very hospital this woman worked for is more culpable in her death than the DJ's are. They had direct involvement with her immediately following the incident and chose to leave her alone instead of supervising her for possible suicidal tendencies. Clearly, they felt the prank was harmless as well, and they are the health professionals.

You're making a lot of assumptions about this woman's mental health, and even more assumptions about what the hospital did or didn't do.

I stand by my earlier statement, which is that this was a transgression of ethics by the two dipshits that made this call. It's not like other such pranks, like the amusing one where a Quebec DJ called Sarah Palin and pretended to be Nicolas Sarkozy. Why? Because whether or not Palin would have liked to go hunting with him from a helicopter does not infringe on legalities like medical confidentiality and basic personal privacy. There were some major ethical issues involved here and if we're going to make assumptions, it would seem more realistic to assume that the gravity of these issues was the major contributor to the nurse's distress over this.

said by PX Eliezer7:

But this wasn't funny, just downright malicious. And stupid, considering the other violations done by this station....

But while I don't think those Australians could envision what would come, and while they may be responsible only for a violation of broadcast law (not for a death), the two of them need to STFU and disappear for a couple of years.

Agreed.

--
"The promoters of the global economy see nothing odd or difficult about unlimited economic growth or unlimited consumption in a limited world."
Wendell Berry


FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
reply to PX Eliezer7

said by PX Eliezer7:

Further, DJ's can and should amuse their audiences with intelligent discussions, not prank calls.

I agree, but most people apparently are much more amused by low life's like Howard Stern & Don Imus. If DJs stuck to intelligent discussion they would lose 2/3rds of their audience.
--
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury.

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver
reply to shaner

said by shaner:

said by Warez_Zealot:

I hope they have their asses fired and get black listed from ever working in the industry again.

Why? For making a prank call? Which is pretty much an industry staple in the morning DJ world?

Look, there is absolutely no way these two morons could have predicted this particular outcome. No possible way. Now, I call them morons because, frankly, the original joke simply wasn't funny. But, the joke really had no malicious intent whatsoever, and once again, they never, ever could have envisioned this outcome. And there wouldn't be calls for their heads if this woman had not killed herself.

Hey, even the venerable Peter Funt of Candid Camera fame sides with the DJ's.
»www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/opini···ml?_r=1&

This is a good viewpoint as well. Even Prince Charles initially laughed off the prank and kind of validated it as somewhat amusing.

»www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-a···29q.html

Look, I think her suicide is the tragedy, not the prank call. I want there to be an honest discussion about mental health issues, and the underlying reasons for suicide and what can be done to prevent these kind of tragedies before they even happen. That is the discussion we should be having, not one about whether these DJ's are criminally responsible for the choice someone else made. Period.

If these DJ's are responsible for this poor woman's death, then the sanctimonious crowd needs to step back and think about the times in their lives they may have even snickered at another person's misfortune. Like watching America's Funniest Home Videos for example.

This was not a prank gone wrong. This was the management of a mental health issue gone wrong. Frankly, the more I think about it, the very hospital this woman worked for is more culpable in her death than the DJ's are. They had direct involvement with her immediately following the incident and chose to leave her alone instead of supervising her for possible suicidal tendencies. Clearly, they felt the prank was harmless as well, and they are the health professionals.

They should definitely be made an example of. Might make other "DJ's" think twice before they do something so stupid. Making the radio station civilly responsible would also be a good option for the family. Sue them and get a bit chunk of change. They should even go after the DJ's directly as well. Obviously these people don't think they did anything wrong because this line of work is their bread and butter.
--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X