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haroldo

join:2004-01-16
united state
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to Snakeoil

Re: [iPhone] Woman tasered after trying to buy too many iPhones

said by Snakeoil:

quote:
The problem I see here is overzealous suburban douchebag cops using a taser on a small 48 year old woman.

We agree on this.

As the Rodney King affair showed, cutting a small part of a video and releasing it to the public can be very misleading. I'm not defending nor accusing anyone, but unless we know what actions precipitated the Tasering, we can't judge.
Sure, she looks like (and probably is) a meek innocent woman, but no one knows (from watching the video) what really happened.
Everyone should have learned at a young age that police officers need to be respected. If an officer requests/demands a person to be calm, I don't care what language it's requested in...you listen. If a person continues in an aggressive or potentially violent manner (no matter how small, old or frail they might appear), they can pass a point where law enforcement officers need to escalate the situation.
Yeah, she's probably 100% innocent, but until you know what really happened...resisting arrest is resisting arrest in any language.
Jumping to conclusions can be dangerous

(if a frail woman old woman yelled "I have a bomb strapped to my chest" in a crowded shopping mall...would Tasering be justified?...we really don't know what happened)

Rojo

join:2009-04-14
New York, NY
kudos:1
"This really is a criminal trespass...issue." - cop.

How under any circumstance is trying to purchase an iPhone 'criminal'?
Why isn't the Apple employee charged with 'criminal' attempted eviction? Seems just as absurd.


haroldo

join:2004-01-16
united state
kudos:1

3 edits
said by Rojo:

...
How under any circumstance is trying to purchase an iPhone 'criminal'? .

IMHO she wasn't arrested for trying to purchase a phone. She was most likely arrested for agitated, aggressive disorderly behavior.
She was requested to leave the store and (probably) got violent
Who knows? Maybe she yelled out "Allahu Akbar" ... or "I'm going to kill you!"
No one has every been arrested for shopping.
Millions are arrested for disorderly conduct.

Again, we're jumping to conclusions.


drslash
Goya Asma
Premium
join:2002-02-18
Marion, IA

1 recommendation

reply to Rojo
said by Rojo:

"This really is a criminal trespass...issue." - cop.

How under any circumstance is trying to purchase an iPhone 'criminal'?
Why isn't the Apple employee charged with 'criminal' attempted eviction? Seems just as absurd.

If she was asked to leave the store and did not then she is trespassing. It doesn't matter if she was in an Apple store, a Toys R Us, or a Starbucks and it doesn't matter if she was trying to buy 3 phones or 3000. She is trespassing if she was asked to leave and she did not comply. It doesn't matter if the reason for asking her to leave is absurd.
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not quite right
I'm not cool enough to be a Mac person

join:2001-06-23
Puyallup, WA
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reply to haroldo
said by haroldo:

said by Rojo:

...
How under any circumstance is trying to purchase an iPhone 'criminal'? .

IMHO she wasn't arrested for trying to purchase a phone. She was most likely arrested for agitated, aggressive disorderly behavior.
She was requested to leave the store and (probably) got violent
Who knows? Maybe she yelled out "Allahu Akbar" ... or "I'm going to kill you!"
No one has every been arrested for shopping.
Millions are arrested for disorderly conduct.

Again, we're jumping to conclusions.

haroldo is spot on ...
--
Not many people know this, but I happen to be quite famous...


haroldo

join:2004-01-16
united state
kudos:1
said by not quite right:

...
haroldo is spot on ...

I agree!


pike
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-01
Washington, DC
kudos:3
reply to haroldo
said by haroldo:

As the Rodney King affair showed, cutting a small part of a video and releasing it to the public can be very misleading. I'm not defending nor accusing anyone, but unless we know what actions precipitated the Tasering, we can't judge.
Sure, she looks like (and probably is) a meek innocent woman, but no one knows (from watching the video) what really happened.

In the video, the police chief issued a statement saying exactly what happened. If there had been mitigating circumstances bolstering his department's use of force, he would have added them there.
said by haroldo:


Everyone should have learned at a young age that police officers need to be respected. If an officer requests/demands a person to be calm, I don't care what language it's requested in...you listen. If a person continues in an aggressive or potentially violent manner (no matter how small, old or frail they might appear), they can pass a point where law enforcement officers need to escalate the situation.

That's not how it works at all. If you are sitting on a park bench minding your own business, a police office can't walk up, demand you leave, and taser you for not complying. You are only required to comply with a lawful order from a police officer. This isn't some dictatorship under martial law.
said by haroldo:


Yeah, she's probably 100% innocent, but until you know what really happened...resisting arrest is resisting arrest in any language.
Jumping to conclusions can be dangerous

..which is why you too should refrain from doing so. If the store, which is private property, wanted her out, that's fine. They can call the cops and they can remove her, bodily if needed. Only when she attempts to re-enter the store does it become criminal trespass.
said by haroldo:

(if a frail woman old woman yelled "I have a bomb strapped to my chest" in a crowded shopping mall...would Tasering be justified?...we really don't know what happened)

Obviously you have no clue how a taser works. First, the electrodes must penetrate anything the subject is wearing to contact the skin on center mass to be effective. In this situation it would be probably be foolish to taser someone with the risk of an electrical arc causing detonation.

Many moons ago, in another life, I worked in law enforcement. Right around the time the Taser was introduced. The intended use was an alternative to lethal force. That is, it should only be used in the same circumstances a gun would be. The idea was to reduce* subject death rate in lethal force situations -- NOT FOR CROWD CONTROL, SUBJECT COMPLIANCE, OR INTIMIDATION. Each jurisdiction has its own use of force policy, but the bottom line is lethal force must only be used to protect your life, or the life of another. It does not appear anyone's life was in danger here.

*I say reduce because the Taser was always known to come with a slight risk of death, particularly to those with cardiovascular health concerns.


haroldo

join:2004-01-16
united state
kudos:1
In the video, the police chief issued a statement saying exactly what happened. If there had been mitigating circumstances bolstering his department's use of force, he would have added them there.

>This was a 90 second cut and paste by the media, this wasn't the result of an official investigation. I'm not familiar with any media outlets that make sure they know the full story before airing a salacious story

That's not how it works at all. If you are sitting on a park bench minding your own business, a police office can't walk up,...

>You know what I meant, no need to spin to the extreme. In the US, if you're extremely agitated or aggressive and an officer of the law asks you to calm down, ignoring him is done at your own peril. This was clearly not an innocent bystander tasered for no reason, just because an officer wanted to have some fun…IMHO

..which is why you too should refrain from doing so. If the store, which is private property, wanted her out, that's fine. They can call the cops and they can remove her, bodily if needed. Only when she attempts to re-enter the store does it become criminal trespass.

>Nowhere in the video did anyone mention she was peaceful and minding her own business. I don't know what happened, but I have to assume the officer had probably cause (unless he's a sadistic maniac)...I'd bet she made a hysterical scene...

Obviously you have no clue how a taser works. First, the electrodes must penetrate anything the subject is wearing to contact the skin on center mass to be effective. In this situation it would be probably be foolish to taser someone with the risk of an electrical arc causing detonation.

>Come on, I'm just providing a hypothetical scenario

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
said by haroldo:

You know what I meant, no need to spin to the extreme.

How could anyone get as extreme as what you already posted?

said by haroldo:

Who knows? Maybe she yelled out "Allahu Akbar" ... or "I'm going to kill you!"



haroldo

join:2004-01-16
united state
kudos:1
Ouch! LOL

guilty as charged!

I was speaking in broad brushes...obviously... taking a bit of poetic license (maybe too much???).
The point is still valid...no one here knows how agitated and aggressive she became...I refuse to believe cops would shoot a taser just for the fun of it....I believe there must have been a reason why officer felt it a necessary action.


NOCMan
MadMacHatter
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO

1 recommendation

reply to haroldo
Yeah and 10 years ago they would of just manhandled her down, today cops use tasers as cattle sticks to force compliance.

gateguy
Premium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD
Reviews:
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reply to haroldo
said by haroldo:

She was requested to leave the store

In English, the report says that she only speaks Chinese. So, how is she supposed to be able to understand the "peace officers" request.

Imagine you visit France (or some other country where YOU dont know the language) and the police start talking to you. Then you get tazered for not complying.
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haroldo

join:2004-01-16
united state
kudos:1
said by gateguy:

said by haroldo:

She was requested to leave the store

In English, the report says that she only speaks Chinese. So, how is she supposed to be able to understand the "peace officers" request.

Imagine you visit France (or some other country where YOU dont know the language) and the police start talking to you. Then you get tazered for not complying.

give me a break. You're telling me that if an armed and uniformed officer of the law approaches you...after an altercation and a problem you had with a merchant...and you didn't understand the native language, you won't be able to understand their gestures and request?
I don't speak Russian, but if i were in Moscow and police officer was called as a result of my behavior and gestured to me, you bet your arse that I'd remain calm and do what ever I could to comply.
I know where all being theoretical here, but do you really believe there is one grown woman on the face of the planet who doesn't understand what a police uniform in a civil society represents?
Really?

gateguy
Premium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
You are making the assumption she understood that it was an altercation.

You are making the assumption she understood that she was being asked to leave.

You are making the assumption the "peace officer" was not overly aggressive. You know the type, do what I say now or else.

You are making quite a few assumptions.

Per the video, she does not speak English.

And yes I do not believe there is one grown woman on the face of the planet who doesn't understand what a police uniform in a civil society represents?

But what the officer represents and what he is trying to communicate are two very different things.
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skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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AA169|170
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1 recommendation

You have a responsibility to have a fundamental ability to communicate when you are visiting another country. When I go to Japan, I have translation software for Kanji and an ability to communicate. I wouldn't go to China unless I took a few week course in Chinese for travelers AND carry a translation device, which if she can be buying a half dozen iPhones, she could also buy.

Chinese understand "No" in English and would understand gestures to leave. She obviously was able to communicate enough to buy iPhones the previous week and come back requesting more.

No would be the clue to simply leave not start arguing with the store's manager.

I'll make the assumption that she got irate when not permitted to buy the extra phones that are certainly not for her "family" and got even more irate when asked to leave then even more irate when the police asked her to leave and resisted when she was finally placed under arrest for refusing to leave.

Cops don't want to arrest people, especially in a mall. It's a pain in the ass and a bunch of extra work when they can get the same money for standing around bullshitting. She isn't going to be arrested unless she is arguing with the police instead of simply walking away.

watice

join:2008-11-01
New York, NY
reply to gateguy
Generally, when you fall to the ground yelling, it means you're not leaving. That's refusal to comply, not a language barrier. She was tased for that reason. You're making the assumption that this took place in a court of law, and you were her defense attorney.

gateguy
Premium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by watice:

Generally, when you fall to the ground yelling, it means you're not leaving. That's refusal to comply, not a language barrier. She was tased for that reason. You're making the assumption that this took place in a court of law, and you were her defense attorney.

I have seen this video 5 times now. At no point in the supplied video is it stated that she was on the ground yelling before she was asked to leave.

Do you have a source other than the video to back up your claim?

Otherwise, your statement "She was tased for that reason" is erroneous.

I am making no assumptions, I am watching the video. What are you watching and reading to come up with such a different viewpoint.
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haroldo

join:2004-01-16
united state
kudos:1

1 edit
The video didn't show what happened to precipitate the use of the taser. As such it does not show a true picture of the events, it's merely a cut and paste to make the story look bad for the police (and the evil profit seeking corporation)


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to gateguy
said by gateguy:

You are making the assumption she understood that it was an altercation.

you are making the assumption she doesn't speak or understand English.

from my 2 decades of experience in retail, many "foreign" people play the "don't speak English" card, despite actually being able to speak it or at least understand it, when it benefits them...the article stated she had already been there a couple of days prior to purchase some phones, so if she can't speak or understand English, how on Earth did she make that purchase to begin with??...point to an iPhone on the counter, show 2 fingers (for quantity of 2) and hand over a credit card??...come on.
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not quite right
I'm not cool enough to be a Mac person

join:2001-06-23
Puyallup, WA
kudos:1
Reviews:
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said by dirtyjeffer:

said by gateguy:

You are making the assumption she understood that it was an altercation.

you are making the assumption she doesn't speak or understand English.

from my 2 decades of experience in retail, many "foreign" people play the "don't speak English" card, despite actually being able to speak it or at least understand it, when it benefits them...

I hate to say it, but when I worked retail I found this to be true as well. It was simply amazing how quickly they learned english when something had rang up wrong on their receipt LOL!
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gateguy
Premium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD
reply to dirtyjeffer
I am making no assumption.

In the video the daughter clearly states that her mother speaks no English.
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skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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Credible witness right there...no way she would be covering for her.
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gateguy
Premium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD
The same could be said of the police chief. No way he would be covering for his officers.
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skeechan
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1 edit
Which is why it should be looked at logically. Why would two officers who have a cush assignment generate a ton of work for themselves? They wouldn't without reason. Occam's razor. She got pissed when she couldn't get the phones because it meant tons of lost black market money. She threw a fit in the store and then mouthed off to the cops to the point she was arrested at which time she resisted and got tazed.

And I know many Chinese, including non-English speakers and all of them would understand "no" and indications to leave the store. And more importantly all of them know not to lip off or otherwise argue with police. If they point and tell them to leave...even if it is in Pig Latin, they'll leave.

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