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Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

Has Shaw become too Asymmetrical and is now falling behind

Given that people are no longer just surfing the internet and usages of app's like Skype, Facetime and other upload intensive apps are increasing is Shaw's upload speeds falling behind those of other ISP's (ie my Son-Inlaw gets at least 3 times the upload speeds that I get with Shaw). The race used to be about download speeds, but now I wonder if upload speeds are going to be the next metric.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


adiabatic

join:2009-01-24
Victoria, BC

I've all but given up on seeing my 10 Mbps upload speed on BB100 here in Victoria (View Royal). Although Shaw never made a formal announcement of the service date, the DNU was done long ago (at least 6-7 months). What is the delay?

It's a shame because 100 Mbps down deserves better upload for what is essentially a premium service. 5 Mbps is laughable. My cloud backups are painfully slow, Slingbox streaming impacts the network for others in the house, and so on.


kevinds
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Shaw

Business 50 is 5 mbps upload, which is why I like it and recomend it to almost everywhere I consult to.

Business 100, has 5 mbps upload as well, for $150/month more, I would really like to see it increased to at least 10 mbps, expecially for the price increase.

Business 250 has the 15 mbps upload, but it is $350/month - $250/month more than the 50 mbps servce.

Residental 250 has 15 mbps, but in my opinion, the upload should be at least 10% or better of the download.

The 4x4 and 8x4 modems are definately capable (and if the 4x4 modems can offer 50 and 100 mbps download without too many issues) it shouldn't be an issue to really crank up the upload to 50 mbps or so on the big packages.
--
Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel.


tlhIngan

join:2002-07-08
Richmond, BC
kudos:1
reply to Link Logger

The problem is upload bandwidth on cable is about 1/20th what the download is - for the most part, the upstream occupies channels between 0-54MHz, while downloads can occupy that all the way up to 1GHz. Now, a lot of it is used for stuff like TV and phone service, so it's not quite a 1:20 ratio.

The big problem is someone doing huge uploads slows everyone else on a node down because the TCP ACK packets don't go back to the server in a timely fashion, so latency and apparent speed go down tremendously. It's why Shaw had to do upload management (using the Ellacoya boxes to throttle Bittorrent uploads).

Now, DOCSIS 3 gives you more capacity for a given bandwidth but you're still limited to everyone in a node. Give people a 50Mbps upload and just a few people uploading at full rate will basically take down a node. Heck, I'm sure it'll happen at 10Mbps. Of course, the first thing to go would be Shaw's unlimited bandwidth plans because the only way to get them is at the higher speeds and uploads.

Of course, not too many people upload tons yet - I still bet a huge consumer of upload bandwidth is still stuff like Bittorrent - while most people actually consume downloads with stuff like Netflix, CinemaNow, YouTube and other download services. FaceTime and the like are still small time consumers.


kevinds
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Shaw

The DPC3825 when I looked was 0-108MHz (where the FM stations went).

4x4 is 160 mbps down 160 mbps up, if 50 mbps is ok to offer downstream, the tech is also there to offer it up. Same thing happens with a couple people in the neighborhood maxing the 100 or 250 mbps downstream.

I think the bigger issue is transit costs for the upload.
--
Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel.



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Link Logger

While I understand there might be technical reasons, or maybe a better word would be 'excuses', they don't really matter as consumers will go to companies who offer solutions. As we move towards 'cloud' based computing, upload speeds will become something consumers will want and as it stands now Shaw's solution isn't going to win or hold customers. I trust Shaw is looking for ways to improve this, and I look forward to their improved upload speeds in the near future, otherwise I might have to look elsewhere for a solution for my evolving internet needs.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


kevinds
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Shaw

The problem is that there are no companies offering solutions to consumers for this, I am sure once there are, Shaw will speed it up
--
Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel.



fan13027

join:2008-10-26
Winnipeg, MB
Reviews:
·Shaw

said by kevinds:

The problem is that there are no companies offering solutions to consumers for this ...

Well there is one company in Winnipeg ...

»voinetworksolutions.com/home/ind···temid=56

The problem is they only serve multiple dwelling unit buildings so far like condos, larger apartments, and downtown office towers. But I just happened to recently move into a condo and will be seeking the boards permission to do their FREE installation into our building ASAP. Symmetrical 50/50 for less than what I'm paying for HS20 now seems quite attractive to me

tlhIngan

join:2002-07-08
Richmond, BC
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to Link Logger

Yeah, Shaw's not really threatened by that. They were at first with Novus (so much they were offering Novux customers $30 for internet/phone/tv).

Multi-user suites aren't exactly Shaw's core base - they know that companies like Novus can never cost-effectively serve neighbourhoods - hell, the only way to get fiber to the house is to have it as part of a new installation (I have fiber, but it's through Telus - you'd think they'd offer like 100/100, but no).

And cloud-services are barely on the radar - Shaw knows those things are rarely time sensitive - most users use Dropbox or something, dumping a few gigs of files? Most users don't care that it takes all night.

Hell, facetime? That thing's gotta work over 3G, whose bandwidth is even more restricted (in more ways than one). And heck, most cloud services have little upload, lots of download - iCloud, Dropbox, etc - you upload once, and download multiple times.

If you're on this forum, there's maybe what, 1000 Shaw users out of millions? As long as the 90% of Shaw users are happy with the speeds, that's all they care about. The bandwidth hogs (torrenters, etc)? They'd rather get rid of you - pawn you off to Telus or someone else. Leaves their nodes less congested so they can avoid splitting a node.

And Shaw's not going to update anytime soon - they know they're among the best in Canada (Rogers? Bell? Shaw outclasses them in speed, quota, etc. The only "competition" is Telus, and everyone laughs if you switch from Shaw to Telus. About the only way to go is Teksavvy. And they're small enough to not be a worry - at least not to the extent that Bell and Rogers had to cripple their service.)

Edit: Yes, the gear can go to 108MHz. Doesn't mean Shaw is using it, in fact, they probably aren't because that obliterates the lower analog channels (which is why uploads went from 0-54MHz - it went below channel 2 and none of the amplifiers or other distribution equipment needs to be modified - you just stick on an reverse amp and you're good to go. Expanding it to 108 means Shaw needs to add filters to the intput and output of every distribution amp so they don't try to amplify the 54-108MHz span "backwards" (the output filter is to prevent amp harmonics from corrupting the upstream), and either replace or add upstream amplifiers. Plus go and screw everyone over because now they need to move channels 2-10 somewhere else, or basically redo the entire channel map).


kevinds
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Shaw

88-108MHz is where the FM stations were, but they have taken those away already, they stopped offering the FM stations, I can only hope, they are using the frequencies for something else

Channels 2-6 are 54-88MHz yes.
--
Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel.



Shaw250

@shawcable.net
reply to Link Logger

I Hit 250/15 easy on my BB250 connection. No reason they can't offer better uploads for the lower tiers.

Issue is no one else for example Telus can offer any thing near the speeds Shaw can to even X%(we all know) of their customer base.



jtl999
CEO of Actiontec Dev Team

join:2012-11-24
In the GVRD
kudos:4

TELUS can offer high upload speeds. Look at Internet 50. Let's wait and see whats in the future.



spock

join:2012-07-08
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

said by jtl999:

TELUS can offer high upload speeds. Look at Internet 50. Let's wait and see whats in the future.

My buddy lives in Comox B.C. and apparently telus brought fiber (GPON) to every house in Cumberland, Courtenay, and Comox.

Beside that who really needs a 250mbps connection unless for its for the bragging rights. I'd rather put that money, $200, towards a car payment. The 15mbps upload is pretty weak. That like having a 25m down / 1.5m up connection

And another thing. There is no way shaw could offer 250mbps to everyone on a node.


Shaw250

@shawcable.net
reply to Link Logger

I don't pay anything near $200 for 250mbps, LOL!!

I'm sure Telus will up their speeds when they start enforcing caps!!


ps3iscool

join:2012-12-27
reply to Link Logger

Shaw's uploading sucks! They should match it or at least make it half of the download speed. At least then their expensive internet prices would look good. If the uploading was right.



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to Link Logger

Blow's my mind that someone could say that Shaw is falling behind on speeds when the only "competitor" just finally released a 50x10 tier and isn't even pushed to their entire foot print. Shaw has had 50x5 to their entire foot print for quite a while at this point. Just finalizing the upgrades for 250x15. Even If you only get 100Mb out of that, the 15Mb upload would be huge. Node saturation can happen just as much as line issues with VDSL2, here to tell you. Distance is a huge factor for VDSL2, as well. At the end of the day, get what you want and if it doesn't work, switch. I love my Shaw biz well more than Telus biz side.



Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

Shaw isn't the industry leader it used to be and maybe Shaw's unbelievably bad competitors have something to do with that, but it doesn't change the fact that Shaw's upload speeds need to improve to keep up with the direction that technology is going. If cloud computing really is the future, then upload speeds are going to be a big component of that as now you are not just bring data down, but you have to send it back up as well and that will become an issue for Shaw customers (my Son in-Law has a cheaper plan in the US with a 3x faster upload speed then my Shaw service) and if Telus could get a clue they could use that to get back some market share (however Telus hasn't had a clue since Alexander Graham Bell moved to Canada).

Blake
For years when video conferencing with others, when problems arose I could wave them off with a 'your network connection sucks', but now they laugh and tell me its my network connection that sucks. Shaw ain't driving like they use to.
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to Link Logger

Regardless of whether upload speeds need to be bumped up, that's a North America wide issue, not directly related a single ISP. If you want to single Shaw out, they are well beyond the so called "competitors".

If you want to complain about the lack of upload speed across North America, try the Canadian Broadband forum. The issue is far from a single provider. Shaw is actually doing quite well compared to the general speed.



rvlad

@dependit.net
reply to Link Logger

This is nothing new to me, I have hear of this happening from time to time I remember the racing cars ads on shaw and miss that sort of funny russian commercial. Which is faster shaw or karneval? I think both connections are indistinguiseable and perhaps the secret success of shaw.

This can't all be about bandwidth though. Look towards Telus I had a arguement just the other day but I know there is nothing they can do its a bad setup from the beggining. The packaging is all wrong on the 6 meg , lite packages and " Highspeed " the packages seem to change the faces but never exceed 30-40% of the overall promised bandwidth.

When your right your right and if slow is the way to go I agree to a point but when your unethical business is stealing 60% from the customer the eithics is out the window. Even talking to the CEO , The directors , or someone at corporate will just reveal multiple levels of fraud. Overal dsl is hopeless but forcing someone into a choice because " There are no alternatives " is a pathetic way to get business.

Or harrasing someone daily by rotating there ip until they pay extra just so they can play there games online properly with game servers. Its all a game we seem to play but no matter how you slice it your paying for something that doesn't exist. Whether its a business package they can't deliver, a connection they can't install the ethical business model is gone.

You will find that scalable 3x figure model available but I think the updates on line speed is always the same little boy in there mommas basement.

With internet its difficult with other countries are involved and perhaps we are all guilty of hiding behind a language barrier when things go bad. Perhaps we even lose control of the ecential canadian component that needs to exist to remain legal and customer service becomes more like fraternizing with the enemy than a true connection.

Whether your internet is in Syria or Canada you would think you could expect to get a adult in customer service. It just starts looking silly when you have to make yourself look ridiculously uninformed or incapable of doing something when its just cost prohibiting you from delivering what you are legally entiteled too.

Dont take my reality of looking at 90% of speedtests from telus that demonstrate no one getting over 3 megs a second, coincidence? Bonded dsl different from regular ADSL? No NO its hpna... or PPOE or the DSLAM is overloaded.

IF coporate had to do there own collections for fraud and do customer service you would think things change. But since last I checked in 2008 there still wrong still incapable of reality and believing something that doesn't exist and I had to pay 3x for which never happened. But who cares right what do I know.

Sometimes I wonder if talking on here is useless and you all seem to hate the customer equally and will say or do anything for a dollar and couldn't care less whether its a human being or anyone that doesn't work at there ISP.


TierX

join:2009-01-20
Canada
kudos:8
reply to rustydusty

said by rustydusty:

Blow's my mind that someone could say that Shaw is falling behind on speeds when the only "competitor" just finally released a 50x10 tier and isn't even pushed to their entire foot print. Shaw has had 50x5 to their entire foot print for quite a while at this point. Just finalizing the upgrades for 250x15. Even If you only get 100Mb out of that, the 15Mb upload would be huge. Node saturation can happen just as much as line issues with VDSL2, here to tell you. Distance is a huge factor for VDSL2, as well. At the end of the day, get what you want and if it doesn't work, switch. I love my Shaw biz well more than Telus biz side.

While I agree with most of what you're saying, upstream is considerably more difficult with HFC Docsis networks than it is with VDSL2. 30% of the VDSL2 17A spectrum is dedicated to upstream, compared to ~5% on a common 1ghz cable plant used with Docsis3 (ignoring the fact below 20mhz is usually too noisy to use for upstream anyway, unless you're using SCDMA modulation).

Most cable operators in North America using Docsis3 upstream channel bonding aren't even using 6.4mhz channels simultaneously with QAM64 in the upstream yet; simply due to the plant maintenance required (lack of DFB lasers, 2nd and 3rd order distortion on return path, etc). I suspect this is exactly why Shaw recanted on there earlier plans to boost upstream rates, and why there 50mbps plan is stuck at 3mbps up. I've been told this by countless cable guys, that there return path is very noisy and very difficult ($$$) to clean up.

The cable co's will definitely get there, but I don't think they'll be able to complete on upstream, at least until Docsis3.1 (2015 for all the bells and whistles).

TierX

join:2009-01-20
Canada
kudos:8
reply to rvlad

said by rvlad :

No NO its hpna... or PPOE or the DSLAM is overloaded.

Huh, TELUS has never used PPPoE, and their FTTN DSLAM build (that 80% of our subscribers are on) is over engineered compared to every other telco in North America. Majority of DSLAM's have 3 gigabit ethernet links in a LAG, which sit around a couple hundred mbps utilization 99% of the time.

I'm not quite sure what 1/2 of your rambling is about, but it's certainly not the TELUS I know.


rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to TierX

said by TierX:

said by rustydusty:

Blow's my mind that someone could say that Shaw is falling behind on speeds when the only "competitor" just finally released a 50x10 tier and isn't even pushed to their entire foot print. Shaw has had 50x5 to their entire foot print for quite a while at this point. Just finalizing the upgrades for 250x15. Even If you only get 100Mb out of that, the 15Mb upload would be huge. Node saturation can happen just as much as line issues with VDSL2, here to tell you. Distance is a huge factor for VDSL2, as well. At the end of the day, get what you want and if it doesn't work, switch. I love my Shaw biz well more than Telus biz side.

While I agree with most of what you're saying, upstream is considerably more difficult with HFC Docsis networks than it is with VDSL2. 30% of the VDSL2 17A spectrum is dedicated to upstream, compared to ~5% on a common 1ghz cable plant used with Docsis3 (ignoring the fact below 20mhz is usually too noisy to use for upstream anyway, unless you're using SCDMA modulation).

Most cable operators in North America using Docsis3 upstream channel bonding aren't even using 6.4mhz channels simultaneously with QAM64 in the upstream yet; simply due to the plant maintenance required (lack of DFB lasers, 2nd and 3rd order distortion on return path, etc). I suspect this is exactly why Shaw recanted on there earlier plans to boost upstream rates, and why there 50mbps plan is stuck at 3mbps up. I've been told this by countless cable guys, that there return path is very noisy and very difficult ($$$) to clean up.

The cable co's will definitely get there, but I don't think they'll be able to complete on upstream, at least until Docsis3.1 (2015 for all the bells and whistles).

Problem I have with VDSL2 when I had it, was the distance from the CO. I wasn't "qualified" for the 25Mb plan, however I managed to get it overridden thanks to a Telus tech on the Telus forum. If it wasn't for him, I would have never been able to get the 25Mb. With the 50Mb out now, I would love to try it again but the hardware is the next biggest thing for me. Atleast with Shaw they will bridge their gateways so you can use your own hardware. With Telus you are forced to use the Actiontec. I went through 3 of the devices in the 6 months I have Optik at my condo. The last time was a long weekend and I had no TV or internet for 4 days. That was the absolute last straw for me. That was also at a different place of mine. Where I'm living now is not even available for anything more than the 6Mb Telus, therefore I have Shaw Biz at home and love it.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Link Logger

My Son In-law in Santa Clara gets 30 Mbps down and 5 Mbps up for just over $50 a month. That would be a worthy competitor for Shaw and not wimpy old Telus. I have a Business 25 (25Mbps down and 2.5 Mbps up) for $80 a month, maybe I need to switch to the residential 50 or 100 (I'm in SE Calgary) so my Wife can Facetime with the Grandkids without it crapping out on poor upload speeds.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


kevinds
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Shaw

1 edit

Depends if want to keep the basic TV package.

Business 50 is $99 for 50/5 and TV.

Residental 50 is 50/3 so not that different from the 25/2.5 plan.

--
Yes, I am not employed and looking for IT work. Have passport, will travel.



Baud1200

join:2003-02-10
Reviews:
·Shaw

4 edits
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

My Son In-law in Santa Clara gets 30 Mbps down and 5 Mbps up for just over $50 a month. That would be a worthy competitor for Shaw and not wimpy old Telus. I have a Business 25 (25Mbps down and 2.5 Mbps up) for $80 a month, maybe I need to switch to the residential 50 or 100 (I'm in SE Calgary) so my Wife can Facetime with the Grandkids without it crapping out on poor upload speeds.

Blake

Don't Switch to the residential at any cost Blake, it seems the routing priority is even worse than the business as business gets priority. Example is i am on the 250 with unlimited and 15Mbit upload but due to the network config i can only muster avg 3Mbit on average (from proliant with 6x15K SAS RAID with a quad teamed 4Gig NIC) and clients and suffer from a lower prioritized traffic queue on the network than the business packages.

I have yet to find a peer to peer protocol that isn't affected by throttling on the user based shaw package and despite multiple calling ppl out on this forum NOBODY has been able to come up with a P2P alternative that is not throttled on the home consumer package for several months since the original (approved)post.

said by Baud1200:

As a home user (non buisness) based package i really don't understand what they want us to transfer files with if they limit every single peer to peer (non commercial) software, how does this make sense for a non commerical package? With this being the best of the best as far as knowledge base, i still can bet that not a single person can even name me a P2P software that is not effected..


Doonz

join:2010-11-27
Beaumont, AB

said by Baud1200:

said by Link Logger:

My Son In-law in Santa Clara gets 30 Mbps down and 5 Mbps up for just over $50 a month. That would be a worthy competitor for Shaw and not wimpy old Telus. I have a Business 25 (25Mbps down and 2.5 Mbps up) for $80 a month, maybe I need to switch to the residential 50 or 100 (I'm in SE Calgary) so my Wife can Facetime with the Grandkids without it crapping out on poor upload speeds.

Blake

Don't Switch to the residential at any cost Blake, it seems the routing priority is even worse than the business as business gets priority. Example is i am on the 250 with unlimited and 15Mbit upload but due to the network config i can only muster avg 3Mbit on average (from proliant with 6x15K SAS RAID with a quad teamed 4Gig NIC) and clients and suffer from a lower prioritized traffic queue on the network than the business packages.

I have yet to find a peer to peer protocol that isn't affected by throttling on the user based shaw package and despite multiple calling ppl out on this forum NOBODY has been able to come up with a P2P alternative that is not throttled on the home consumer package for several months since the original (approved)post.

said by Baud1200:

As a home user (non buisness) based package i really don't understand what they want us to transfer files with if they limit every single peer to peer (non commercial) software, how does this make sense for a non commerical package? With this being the best of the best as far as knowledge base, i still can bet that not a single person can even name me a P2P software that is not effected..

Having a slow day Baud1200
Expand your moderator at work


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to Link Logger

Re: Has Shaw become too Asymmetrical and is now falling behind

Had a look at the speeds guys are posting with Optik50 (typically 50+ down and 10+ up) and it appears by the numbers to kick Shaw's butt on upload speeds, so going to have Telus give me a price for the whole shooting match (phone, TV, Internet) so I can compare equal feature systems.

I was one of Shaw's very first internet customers in Calgary and have been happy with them for many, many years, but as I said upload speeds are starting to matter so perhaps its time to see what the other guys have as I think Shaw is lagging on upload speeds.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool


ravenchilde

join:2011-04-01
kudos:2
reply to TierX

said by TierX:

Most cable operators in North America using Docsis3 upstream channel bonding aren't even using 6.4mhz channels simultaneously with QAM64 in the upstream yet;

There also isn't a need to do this. With channel bonding and load balancing (together) you can just keep adding more upstream channels at 3.2mhz and spreading customers across them.

I mean, great job to toss some "facts" out there about cable systems, but your spin on it wasn't needed or necessarily true. Also the size of the upstream portion of spectrum is changing in the cable industry, and that will (likely) happen before DOC3.1.

I personally feel that intentionally, or unintentionally, you are sowing unneeded FUD, and that it isn't in the spirit of these forums.


rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Had a look at the speeds guys are posting with Optik50 (typically 50+ down and 10+ up) and it appears by the numbers to kick Shaw's butt on upload speeds, so going to have Telus give me a price for the whole shooting match (phone, TV, Internet) so I can compare equal feature systems.

I was one of Shaw's very first internet customers in Calgary and have been happy with them for many, many years, but as I said upload speeds are starting to matter so perhaps its time to see what the other guys have as I think Shaw is lagging on upload speeds.

Blake

I would definitely consider the new 50/10 from Telus, however the biggest concern I have is the Actiontec device. Like I've stated before, the device just doesn't work for me and load I put on it. Burnt out 3 of them within my 6 months with Optik. When the device goes, you no longer have internet or TV. Have yet to have a cable modem completely die on me with the 10+ years with Shaw.