dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
3813
share rss forum feed

voxframe

join:2010-08-02

ARGH! Ubnt radios freezing!

This comes back and kicks me in the ass every single year!

It's -25C out here (So not stupid cold, just cold) and I have...

SITE 1
----------
2 M5Bullets frozen solid, crashed and need hard boots
1 M5Powerbridge in the process of shitting itself. Passing maybe 2Meg when normally 50Meg+

SITE 2
----------
1 M5Bullet frozen solid, crashed and needs hard boot

SITE 3
----------
1 M5Bullet jamming and passing traffic when it feels like it, link holds, packet loss and high pings like crazy
1 M5Powerbrige in the same vote

SITE 4
----------
1 M5Powerbrige in same vote as Site 3

SITE 5
---------
1 M5Bullet in same vote as Site 3-4

Gawddammit! What a shitstorm!
Last year it was only one M5Bullet that kept acting up, now it's a pile of radios!

Does anyone else have issues like this?
What's WORSE is I have other radios hung in areas 5X as treacherous as these sites, and they don't flinch... WTF! Site 4 and 5 are the only ones even remotely in windy/high locations.



Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2

I dont quite live as north as you do, but occasionally does get that cold here. Solution? Lower the output power. Worked for me on all freezing issues I had.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe

No shit?

How much do you lower it? I'll try anything at this point!

Pleasepleaspleaseplease work!

Grrr F*** U Ubnt!


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe

Holy crap it works! ... Somewhat

Brought back 2 sites by dropping power levels. The others are still acting up but not as bad. Just don't have the guts to play the limbo game and see just how low I can go before I kill the link and have to climb a mountain. Dropped them by 4db and crossing fingers.

On a side note...
------------- Ubnt Spec Sheet
Power Rating Up to 24V
Power Method Passive Power over Ethernet (pairs 4, 5+; 7, 8 return)*
Operating Temperature -40C to 80C
Operating Humidity 5 to 95% Condensing
Shock and Vibration ETSI300-019-1.4
--------------

-40C to 80C MY ASS!!!!



Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to voxframe

I have only 6 PB5's and 12 Rocket M5's. All of them are at 20db or lower and have never frozen up. It's -27C here this AM and hit -31 overnight.



Zippytech

@aliant.net
reply to voxframe

Had this problem yesterday it is -27 here in NB and my issue was the power supplies in the outdoor cabinets where cold. Just for testing I heated up the cabinets and the radio's came back online. I do not know if this is the reason for the radio's coming back to life but it worked.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe

Well so far we've resorted to wrapping bullets in insulation, dropping power, changing PoEs, wrapping PBs in garbage bags full of insulation...

Let me tell ya Ubnt... I ain't happy!

I can see this with the bullets, but PBs???!!!


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe

I just wish I knew what the hell the cold did to these things. Maybe I could do some kind of contortion to get around it. None of these fixes are making things stable again. Each helps a bit, but nothing is smooth.

It seems that it affects the CPU directly as I can't do anything with the radio when it's frozen. GUI doesn't work, LAN or WLAN side doesn't matter, it doesn't reboot, it just freezes and comes back like nothing happened.

This might sound crazy, does anyone know a simple command line I could issue to these to crank their CPU to the limit for a couple minutes to warm them up? I know starting Airview always worked well for me, but lately I can't do that because of all the firmware screwups, and the fact that it usually never works due to some Java problem (If anyone knows what that's all about too, please let me know)



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:6

2 edits

1 recommendation

This is what happens when the electronic components used are commercial temperature rated devices (0C to 70C) rather than the more robust industrial rated devices (-40C to 85C).

How do you think that UBNT keeps the radio prices so low? Using more expensive components?


gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to voxframe

This is most likely a power supply issue. Bad crimps, cable, POE's etc..

Bullets make to much heat to "freeze" IMO. But I don't have to deal with the real cold stuff here in IL.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net



CMack

join:2004-07-30
canada

1 recommendation

reply to voxframe

Click for full size
I have never used Rockets or Bullets however, we use the PS2-PS5 externals with no issues over the past 5 years in -30, no issues. My guess is it's how the internal antenna marry's to the Board. see photo, there are 4 UBNT AP's at the very top (cant see them) of a 130ft tower in hoar frost (every year), all customers working 5x5.

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe

Definitely not power. I wish it was. Would make it simpler.

We've wrapped the bullets in thermal insulation wraps, and the PBs in garbage bags filled with insulation. So far it did the trick.

It's definitely cold temps.

What scares me is these aren't seriously cold temps. -25C sucks, but it ain't deathly cold.

Bullets I can understand freezing. There's no spacing or insulating area in the casing. Not to mention if it's attached directly to the antenna (Especially something like a grid) that cold is being conducted directly to the board VIA the connector. For the PBs, my only theory is the metal bolts in the back to the metal bracketing. All other radios like rockets and nanos are all plastic so no direct conduction of thermal to the board itself. (Rockets kinda with their SMA connectors, but they are a lot smaller in comparison and have some coax to go through before they get to the radio)


prairiesky

join:2008-12-08
canada
kudos:2
reply to voxframe

Here in winterpeg, we've already seen -30 and i haven't had one lock up yet. That being said, I have heated cabinets. It's really really easy to keep at least the POE's and switches warm.

We have a small heater taped glued to the door side of our cabinet. Between the gear, insulation and heater, the heater turns on for about 15 minutes out of the hour in cold cold weather. A cheaper solution would be to attach a light blulb (size of your choice) to a thermostat in your box.


voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe

It's strange too because we have mountain sites the same as CMack where the tower is completely one solid block of hoar frost. You can't even tell there ARE antennas on it. And those aren't affected.

These are all sub 50foot installs. On buildings or Trylon towers. It totally doesn't make sense.

I'm curious if maybe this is a batch issue?


gunther_01
Premium
join:2004-03-29
Saybrook, IL
reply to voxframe

We have a couple Bullets in use, and quite a few Bridges. I don't think we have seen this issue. I know this year we have seen some 15F temps. And last year we had a few 0's (I think was the coldest) And hadn't seen this.

I remember having issues like this with our older Deliberants and such for customers. Almost all of our power boxes are outdoor, without any insulation. Some just have 2 POEs chained together. So there isn't any heat to speak of in that box. I just find it pretty hard to believe a bullet would freeze. Ever held one of those on the bench? They get pretty darned warm even at idle. And of course they are "rated" at -40C

Of course after saying this, mine will magically start to do the same thing

I have heard in the past that as ambient temps drop, devices require more power (current) to operate. I can't recall why, or if it's even true. But, if there is any kind of issue with cabling, POE, or crimps, it will show it's ugly head at the worst time. If it is true, your wraps might be helping in the form of the radio needing less current since it's warmer. It would also correlate to the lowering of power output solution.
--
»www.wirelessdatanet.net



Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO

1 recommendation

reply to voxframe

Maybe they are just cold and lonely?
How about climb up and whisper sweet nothings in its ethernet port??


--
I survived Hale-Bopp!


LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to voxframe

said by voxframe:

I'm curious if maybe this is a batch issue?

Unless all your spares are of the same production run, I would start swapping them out to see.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
reply to voxframe

said by voxframe:

It's strange too because we have mountain sites where the tower is completely one solid block of hoar frost. And those aren't affected.

I would think the frost would actually provide some insulating value, much like snow since it isn't completely solid like a block of ice. Might not be much, but maybe enough to help keep the wind from wicking away whatever little bit of heat the devices are able to produce.


Inssomniak
The Glitch
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
kudos:2
reply to voxframe

said by voxframe:

It's strange too because we have mountain sites the same as CMack where the tower is completely one solid block of hoar frost. You can't even tell there ARE antennas on it. And those aren't affected.

These are all sub 50foot installs. On buildings or Trylon towers. It totally doesn't make sense.

I'm curious if maybe this is a batch issue?

What killed me wasn't even the cold itself. It was the wind. The hoar frost is probably acting as insulation against the wind. Where the building sides can even see the wind accelerate on the exposed walls.
--
OptionsDSL Wireless Internet
»www.optionsdsl.ca

voxframe

join:2010-08-02
reply to voxframe

I was kinda thinking that theory, but was wondering if I wasn't just grasping for any kind of answer at that point either. It's true though, any of our "exposed" radios on high points, are around half a foot deep in that frost on an average day.


lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to gunther_01

said by gunther_01:

I have heard in the past that as ambient temps drop, devices require more power (current) to operate. I can't recall why, or if it's even true.

It is true. Almost all ICs draw more current (and hence power) as the temperature drops. I wrote about this when people were having issues with some Realtek-based radios during 2006/7 winter.

Anyway IC engineers do what is called "timing analysis" at the required extreme temperatures and make sure that all internal circuits operate correctly. Those extremes are usually -20C/70C for extended ; -40C/85C for industrial and finally -55C/125C for a few miltary and satellite ICs.

The temperature is for the "die" inside the IC which depends on both ambient temperature and thermal specs of the IC packaging.

For occasional WISP radio failures in winter, the main culprits are the oscillator and the CPU. Most of them are tested/rated at -20C and we are actually lucky to have them running below that temperature.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5
reply to Rhaas

said by Rhaas:

How about climb up and whisper sweet nothings in its ethernet port??

Been reading geek p0rn, I see.

/spelling


Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO
reply to lutful

said by lutful:

^^^^^
Thats a name I havent seen in a loooong time.
--
I survived Hale-Bopp!

lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

said by Rhaas:

said by lutful:

^^^^^
Thats a name I havent seen in a loooong time.

I actually hang out at the electronics forum these days.
»Haven't seen Lutful posting lately

P.S. I really could not make any critical comments about UBNT stuff back in 2010 without getting attacked by fanboys. Hopefully that has changed.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

Respectively replying, anyone that hasn't extensively deployed UBNT gear shouldn't make critical comments.


lutful
... of ideas
Premium
join:2005-06-16
Ottawa, ON
kudos:1

said by WHT:

Respectively replying, anyone that hasn't extensively deployed UBNT gear shouldn't make critical comments.

Obviously there are exceptions like (
»Noisy UBNT gear appearing in our area ) by a veteran WISP. My only comment in that 5 page thread was about adding UNIX "nice" feature in a TDMA radio to co-exist with other WISP gear. And my response to a specific question in this UBNT thread relates to IC temperature ratings. Both are stuff I know a lot about because I personally designed ICs and TDMA radio PCBs.

Hopefully you UBNT guys will allow that tiny bit of freedom of relevant expression by non-UBNT users. After all there are very few of us left. Nothing to fear - you guys already won.


Rhaas
Premium
join:2005-12-19
Bernie, MO
reply to lutful

said by lutful:

said by Rhaas:

said by lutful:

^^^^^
Thats a name I havent seen in a loooong time.

P.S. I really could not make any critical comments about UBNT stuff back in 2010 without getting attacked by fanboys. Hopefully that has changed.

Even the fan boys got burned
I am using their 2.4G equipment with some success - as long as it is fairly quiet.

I am not happy about the 7kft of tough cable I have deployed that has or is failing..
--
I survived Hale-Bopp!

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2

said by Rhaas:

I am not happy about the 7kft of tough cable I have deployed that has or is failing..

Same here... The UV protected stuff that wasn't... I was just at a customer's house yesterday for something totally unrelated and happened to look at the cable and saw a bunch of cracks all over the place. Hadn't totally failed yet, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

I haven't participated on the UBNT forums for quite awhile, but does anyone know if they are offering any sort of compensation for the crappy cable that is only lasting a year or two? I have other cable that's been installed for 6+ years and is in almost as good of condition as the day we installed it. Even some cheap non-UV unshielded indoor cable that was intended to be temporary is still in great condition compared to the UBNt stuff.

Newbie

join:2011-04-18

No Compensation yet, they will send you new boxes for the stuff you used... But that doesnt quite cover man hours/ lost revenue.

We had a bit of a rush when a competitor went out of business last year.... Close to 300 installs in 2 months (thats a lot for us).... We just got killed this summer with service calls, left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.....


bburley

join:2010-04-30
Cold Lake, AB
reply to voxframe

I have a nanobridge M5 failing this morning at -29C.

The radio link is still good, but ping times are all over the place if they get through at all. I think the highest response was just over 4000 ms.

Rebooting fixed the problem but only for a few minutes. It has now warmed up a couple of degrees and it is returning to normal.

Now I just have to figure out what to replace the damn things with.