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resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to John Doe 187

Re: Teksavvy Voltage motion - Looking for some advice

said by John Doe 187 :

I agree with this. I believe the service provider should be doing something to protect their customer's interest along with their own. If they are unwilling to question such requests now how many more requests will be made to them in the future? It just seems this fight to set some precedence is worthwhile and something Teksavvy should be seeking to do.

After January 14 I will be cancelling my internet with Teksavvy and subscribing with someone else who has my best interest in mind if nothing happens. Let’s see what my service provider is willing to do for my interest right instead of the other way around.

Bell, Cogeco & Videotron didn't fight a court order from Voltage in Sept 2011 back when they could have easily argued privacy rights & evidence issues based on the 2004 decision.

Other TPIA providers decided not to fight November 2012. Before this 'neutral' requirement in the act which indemnifies them from liability from their customers' downloading. It wasn't in place til end of Nov I think? They wouldn't have been held liable for their customer's downloading practices no matter what.

As for now, they have to be 'neutral' whatever the hell that is, with no described standard for what 'neutral' is, and what ISPs can or can't do while remaining immune from liability.

Other ISPs have larger windows in which they keep IP address info..

I'm just curious who you plan on going with.. (No, I'm not being sarcastic.. I'm curious as to who you think will do better than Teksavvy in protecting your privacy).
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


TwiztedZero
Nine Zero Burp Nine Six
Premium
join:2011-03-31
Toronto, ON
kudos:5
I think the trolls' idea of an isp is any open wifi router it can leech from. Cause as far as I know there isn't a single ISP in Canada that does what that troll wants.


John Doe 187

@5.135.78.x
reply to resa1983
As far as which provider I will be switching to I have yet to decide and need some time to do some research. I just don't want to cancel my internet right now as I need to be up to date and is less on the priority list but I will be cancelling once more information comes out.


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
reply to resa1983
said by resa1983:

said by John Doe 187 :

I agree with this. I believe the service provider should be doing something to protect their customer's interest along with their own. If they are unwilling to question such requests now how many more requests will be made to them in the future? It just seems this fight to set some precedence is worthwhile and something Teksavvy should be seeking to do.

After January 14 I will be cancelling my internet with Teksavvy and subscribing with someone else who has my best interest in mind if nothing happens. Let’s see what my service provider is willing to do for my interest right instead of the other way around.

Bell, Cogeco & Videotron didn't fight a court order from Voltage in Sept 2011 back when they could have easily argued privacy rights & evidence issues based on the 2004 decision.

Other TPIA providers decided not to fight November 2012. Before this 'neutral' requirement in the act which indemnifies them from liability from their customers' downloading. It wasn't in place til end of Nov I think? They wouldn't have been held liable for their customer's downloading practices no matter what.

As for now, they have to be 'neutral' whatever the hell that is, with no described standard for what 'neutral' is, and what ISPs can or can't do while remaining immune from liability.

Other ISPs have larger windows in which they keep IP address info..

I'm just curious who you plan on going with.. (No, I'm not being sarcastic.. I'm curious as to who you think will do better than Teksavvy in protecting your privacy).

Comparing in that context is a far cry. Just because the big 3 do or don't do something doesn't mean it's ok for TSI to do or not to do something.

Isn't TSI different? I'm not even arguing about privacy or IP issues, just your argument. Quit comparing TSI to them. Everyone should quit comparing Teksavvy to anyone. They're not comparable, period.

If one user chooses to leave, doesn't mean we all should debate what one or the other did and didn't do. This is about Teksavvy. It really doesn't matter who they go with, it's not them Voltage is after right now, and Teksavvy may be Voltages go to ISP for for some time to come.


John Doe 187

@5.135.78.x
I agree to this. I mean you cave the first time they will come for seconds, thirds, etc... Voltage and company are hungry to recoup revenue they would have never made in the first place and exploiting the court system to do so. It’s sad but the old dollar bill rules.

That alone is enough reason for me to leave TSI. Weather there is a better ISP out there is not relevant but I choose to believe something else must be better. I choose TSI because they fought for bandwidth and now there is another fight coming and they unwilling to go the extra mile so I like them can make a decision too.

resa1983
Premium
join:2008-03-10
North York, ON
kudos:10
reply to Tx
said by Tx:

Comparing in that context is a far cry. Just because the big 3 do or don't do something doesn't mean it's ok for TSI to do or not to do something.

Isn't TSI different? I'm not even arguing about privacy or IP issues, just your argument. Quit comparing TSI to them. Everyone should quit comparing Teksavvy to anyone. They're not comparable, period.

If one user chooses to leave, doesn't mean we all should debate what one or the other did and didn't do. This is about Teksavvy. It really doesn't matter who they go with, it's not them Voltage is after right now, and Teksavvy may be Voltages go to ISP for for some time to come.

And what about my comparison of the TPIA providers who didn't fight back in Nov 2012?
--
Battle.net Tech Support MVP


Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed
said by resa1983:

said by Tx:

Comparing in that context is a far cry. Just because the big 3 do or don't do something doesn't mean it's ok for TSI to do or not to do something.

Isn't TSI different? I'm not even arguing about privacy or IP issues, just your argument. Quit comparing TSI to them. Everyone should quit comparing Teksavvy to anyone. They're not comparable, period.

If one user chooses to leave, doesn't mean we all should debate what one or the other did and didn't do. This is about Teksavvy. It really doesn't matter who they go with, it's not them Voltage is after right now, and Teksavvy may be Voltages go to ISP for for some time to come.

And what about my comparison of the TPIA providers who didn't fight back in Nov 2012?

Same rules apply. Marc has time and time again said Teksavvy is not them. They pride themselves for being a different, better option.

Compare bell, rogers, telus all you like, they're in eachothers pockets... but TSI is a whole new ball game. They are absolutely different and moves they make every year will define them 10 years from now.

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
reply to Tx
I agree. I signed up with TSI because they claimed to be different and care about their customers. This lack of action in my opinion does not support their claims.

Maybe doing nothing won't hurt TSI and maybe it will but for myself I rather go with another ISP. Which ISP that will be is unknown and I don’t have the time to worry about now. But I do know is I am not staying with them after Jan 14th or when I get this matter dealt with. Maybe I won't be sheltered by the new ISP, maybe I will, I am not sure, but what I do know is if the trolls know you are willing to give up your customers… be prepared for them to come back again and again... I for one don't want to stick around for the second dinner!

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to resa1983
said by resa1983:

said by John Doe 187 :

I agree with this. I believe the service provider should be doing something to protect their customer's interest along with their own. If they are unwilling to question such requests now how many more requests will be made to them in the future? It just seems this fight to set some precedence is worthwhile and something Teksavvy should be seeking to do.

After January 14 I will be cancelling my internet with Teksavvy and subscribing with someone else who has my best interest in mind if nothing happens. Let’s see what my service provider is willing to do for my interest right instead of the other way around.

Bell, Cogeco & Videotron didn't fight a court order from Voltage in Sept 2011 back when they could have easily argued privacy rights & evidence issues based on the 2004 decision.

Other TPIA providers decided not to fight November 2012. Before this 'neutral' requirement in the act which indemnifies them from liability from their customers' downloading. It wasn't in place til end of Nov I think? They wouldn't have been held liable for their customer's downloading practices no matter what.

As for now, they have to be 'neutral' whatever the hell that is, with no described standard for what 'neutral' is, and what ISPs can or can't do while remaining immune from liability.

Other ISPs have larger windows in which they keep IP address info..

I'm just curious who you plan on going with.. (No, I'm not being sarcastic.. I'm curious as to who you think will do better than Teksavvy in protecting your privacy).

and all three own and produce movies and tv...gee wonder why, cause then they can come after you easier for there stuff.
thats why its bias to have an isp with iptv or owning cable or satallite tv/movies.

funny0

join:2010-12-22
reply to resa1983
so far no one is fighting back really if cippic doesn't get intervene status its being handed to voltage.

enjoy


dillyhammer
START me up
Premium
join:2010-01-09
Scarborough, ON
kudos:10
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Start Communicat..
reply to resa1983
said by resa1983:

I'm curious as to who you think will do better than Teksavvy in protecting your privacy

If people stand around and do nothing, how the hell are ISPs going to get the message the handing off our private information is a bad thing?

What people need to do is make this experience as painful as possible, so that any ISP considering giving up the info at the drop of a hat thinks twice.

Let's face it. This was a risk assessment exercise by TSI. They simply weighed the possible outcomes of fighting versus rolling over, and decided that rolling over was less risk.

We as a community need to change that perception.

The message we need to send is, "if you roll over, it will cost you, and big time".

There needs to be a backlash for rolling over like this. It needs to be swift, and extremely painful. Once it goes public that TSI released the info I think we're going to see some of that.

Mike
--
Cogeco - The New UBB Devil -»[Burloak] Usage Based Billing Nightmare
Cogeco UBB, No Modem Required - »[Niagara] 40gb of "usage" while the modem is unplugged


dontbackdown

@nltelcom.com
What we are witnessing is the death of an ISP. Inside of 5 years Teksavvy will be gone if they roll over. The whole business model was about protecting the customer and they will have effectively thrown it out the window. If they fight the business will grow, if they don't it will die. Everybody stuck with Teksavvy through thick and thin because of this.

bullwinkle

join:2011-03-19
Nepean, ON
said by dontbackdown :

The whole business model was about protecting the customer and they will have effectively thrown it out the window. If they fight the business will grow, if they don't it will die. Everybody stuck with Teksavvy through thick and thin because of this.

I have to disagree with you. As far as I can tell, it's more that their business model was about providing better - or at least, differentiated - value to customers. Their prior battles with the incumbents and the regulators were about sustaining their ability to provide their current and potential consumers as an aggregate with those other choices. That's very different from your expectation that they should defend individual customers who may have been implicated in court proceedings.

If your choice of ISP does depend on having that expectation met, then, yeah, you should look elsewhere for service.


hm

@videotron.ca
said by bullwinkle:

said by dontbackdown :

The whole business model was about protecting the customer and they will have effectively thrown it out the window. If they fight the business will grow, if they don't it will die. Everybody stuck with Teksavvy through thick and thin because of this.

I have to disagree with you.

Some lawyers are saying the same thing as "dontbackdown". Howard Knopff i one of them. See, »www.excesscopyright.blogspot.ca/···-in.html
... Will feisty, progressive Teksavvy, the ISP that has built its reputation on being customer-friendly, actually stand up and fight for its customers’ “privacy” without taking sides on “piracy”

Fight or flight.

If teksavvy just lets cippic handle it w/o involving themselves, they are going to lose face with a lot of people.

However my prediction is:
Teksavvy is loading the dice. That is, they are siding with and trying to let cippic handle it and if they fail to get intervention status then TSI will come out swinging. They are just leaving doors open. Or so I am hoping.

cynic10

join:2011-02-05
quote:
However my prediction is:Teksavvy is loading the dice. That is, they are siding with and trying to let cippic handle it and if they fail to get intervention status then TSI will come out swinging.[i/] They are just leaving doors open. Or so I am hoping.

I truly hope you're right about this last part but I don't have much faith. Already looking for new ISP in my area, Start.ca seems to be the next to go to.

And this is what happens when you give copyright trolls an inch....another one bites the dust.

»torrentfreak.com/music-biz-wants···-130105/
What started out with Eircom agreeing to have The Pirate Bay blocked could now potentially lead to a few other Irish ISPs having to follow suit.


dontbackdown

@start.ca
reply to bullwinkle
They should defend all customer not individual ones. Last I checked this was not the problem of one individual but that of thousands. Do you even have any idea what you are defending? Lol

JMJimmy

join:2008-07-23
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to hm
said by hm :

However my prediction is:
Teksavvy is loading the dice. That is, they are siding with and trying to let cippic handle it and if they fail to get intervention status then TSI will come out swinging. They are just leaving doors open. Or so I am hoping.

I'm really hoping this is the case as well, especially since TSI has serious business concerns here. From poaching by other ISPs (I'm sure P2P users are cash cows for the likes of Bhell and Robbers), detriment to their short term reputation which will affect referrals and retention rates, and long term reputation as this will be the case everyone remembers. People won't remember the 20-30 person suits but they will remember the first mass lawsuit that set the standard of behaviour for other ISPs to follow.

JohnDoe187

join:2013-01-04
Does anyone know if CIPPIC has been given intervener status or when that would be given or denied?

Tong

join:2012-12-11
r3t 38x
We will find out on Jan 14th. Right now, they don't.

abcjak

join:2012-12-18
reply to funny0

said by funny0 See Profile
As for now, they have to be 'neutral' whatever the hell that is, with no described standard for what 'neutral' is, and what ISPs can or can't do while remaining immune from liability.

Other ISPs have larger windows in which they keep IP address info..

:

Hmmm.....all this talk of remaining "neutral" finally clicked button in my memory. How many of you were online roughly 15-20yrs ago? My recall is sketchy in the details but it concerned newsfeeds and NNTP and local storage of all kinds of things which normally would be illegal. If i remember right, in the end, it was decided that it was not the ISP/school/news-server-owners job to analyze and police everything that was going on with them and that they can turn a blind eye and remain neutral to what's going on with them. ...this was here, I was in univeristy at the time but the decision later trickled to Rogers and all the others. This sounds very similar to the position taken by the australian ISP that recently walked away from that movie company saying it's not their job to watch users the way the company wanted them to.


InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to dillyhammer
said by dillyhammer:

If people stand around and do nothing, how the hell are ISPs going to get the message the handing off our private information is a bad thing?

What people need to do is make this experience as painful as possible, so that any ISP considering giving up the info at the drop of a hat thinks twice.

If the ISP gets served a court order, they have to comply or get charged with contempt for the court which could have some rather nasty consequence for the company... imagine a search warrant where the police brings down the routers and servers for investigation because the ISP refuses to cooperate. If the search discovers evidence that the ISP deleted records after they were made aware of the search warrant, the ISP and its employees may also get charged with destruction of evidence.

So, unless the ISP's owners and employees are willing to get criminally charged and/or have their business shut down for an undetermined period of time while their offices and installations are being stormed by investigators, there isn't much they can legally do to object to court orders once they have been issued.
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