dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
2358
share rss forum feed

jsouth
Jsouth

join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS

Doors

I have a question about doors. Are solid core wood doors better for security or are the steel doors better. I already know to get the screws for the deadbolt put into the frame of the house. I am just wondering about the pros and the cons of each type of door.


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10

Steel doors are uglier, noisier, and heavier, but they won't splinter when kicked in if nothing else, and the heavier duty doors are also fire-rated.


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to jsouth

Just a guess but I think a solid wood door would be stronger than a foam cored residential quality steel door. Commercial rated doors would be different.



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to jsouth

I don't think it matter between solid and metal they work about the same. Both are fire-rated doors. In the end the weakest part of the door is the hinges, handle, and/or lock. That's where people focus. If someone wanted to go threw our door they'd just hook up a chain to the door then to their car and rip the door off. That or shoot out the lock. Just go with a standard solid core FIBERGLASS fire-rated 20 minute door.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


tcope
Premium
join:2003-05-07
Sandy, UT
kudos:2

Weakest part of door... heck with that, they could just break a window and then unlock the door.



VioletVenom
Lets go Gators
Premium
join:2002-01-02
Gainesville, FL
reply to jsouth

You not only need to take the door into consideration, but the jamb and swing of the door. When someone tries to breach the door they're going to try and force the door inwards. If you have an inswing door with a wooden jamb enough force needs to be applied to break 2 fastners and ~3/4" of wood. Versus a metal jamb, outswing you are now applying force against a metal stop on 3 sides of the door. As to metal vs solid core, I would think both would hold up quite well against brute force with the later installation. As to someone using heavy equipment to breach a house, house loses.


jsouth
Jsouth

join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS
reply to jsouth

We are having break ins where they are kicking in back doors or doors attached to garages that are in the back yard or out of view of neighbors. On my house breaking a window would possibly work but the neighbors would all hear. The same with brute force. Can any door be set to swing out? What about temperature issues? Does steel conduct heat and cold? Also I am getting a plain door. No windows in it at all.



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to jsouth

As long as you have room for the door to swing it can open either direction. You just have to buy a pre-hung inswing or outswing door to install. A cheaper option is get a wireless outside webcam and install it out of reach but in plain sight. Set it to email you pictures anytime it detects movement. If they want to break in after that the door wouldn't have made any difference.

While your at it go onto eBay and buy some ADT stickers and signs. The best option is to make sure they don't want to mess with you in the first place rather then invite attack and plan a defense against it.

The best defense is a good offense!
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!



cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to VioletVenom

said by VioletVenom:

You not only need to take the door into consideration, but the jamb and swing of the door. When someone tries to breach the door they're going to try and force the door inwards. If you have an inswing door with a wooden jamb enough force needs to be applied to break 2 fastners and ~3/4" of wood. Versus a metal jamb, outswing you are now applying force against a metal stop on 3 sides of the door. As to metal vs solid core, I would think both would hold up quite well against brute force with the later installation.

When was the last time out saw an outswinging entry door on a house? Yeah they exist, but they are rare. Even if they are used, they are still not hard to get into. It's going to make noise, but a metal pry bar of a decent length will provide more than enough leverage. Door jamb, door, hinges, lockset...somethings going to give.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0pH08plTz0


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
reply to jsouth

An outswing entry door is 10 times easier to pick then inswing entry door as well which is why the majority of entry doors are inswing.


bemis

join:2008-07-18
Reading, MA
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to sk1939

said by sk1939:

Steel doors are uglier, noisier, and heavier, but they won't splinter when kicked in if nothing else, and the heavier duty doors are also fire-rated.

My $199 Jeld-Wen looks just fine, from 5' away you would have no way of telling the difference between it and a painted wood door.

Not sure what you mean by noiser? It doesn't really make a sound when it closes unless you're counting the sound of the seals hitting the door, but that was same noise I had w/ my old wood door...

Fire rating is usually only for the ones w/o a window, and of course, if it's an exterior door, who cares about a fire-rating?

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to Draiman

said by Draiman:

An outswing entry door is 10 times easier to pick then inswing entry door as well which is why the majority of entry doors are inswing.

Could you elaborate?


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to jsouth

The only difference between wood, fiberglass, and steel exterior is durability. If you bump a steel door you might dent it where wood or fiberglass wouldn't. Steel is considered the budget door. A fire-rating means 'solid core' so from a security prospective you don't care about the fire rating but you want 'solid core' so you get a fire rated door.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to robbin

said by robbin:

said by Draiman:

An outswing entry door is 10 times easier to pick then inswing entry door as well which is why the majority of entry doors are inswing.

Could you elaborate?

The space between the frame and the door is exposed on an outswing door. I've seen people pick outswings in under 60 seconds as a teen. Inswings they skipped and attacked windows instead.

Not to mention other things like an outswing can get blocked so a fire hazard or if you get snow a nightmare to use that door.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!

nonymous
Premium
join:2003-09-08
Glendale, AZ

said by Draiman:

said by robbin:

said by Draiman:

An outswing entry door is 10 times easier to pick then inswing entry door as well which is why the majority of entry doors are inswing.

Could you elaborate?

The space between the frame and the door is exposed on an outswing door. I've seen people pick outswings in under 60 seconds as a teen. Inswings they skipped and attacked windows instead.

Not to mention other things like an outswing can get blocked so a fire hazard or if you get snow a nightmare to use that door.

Is that true picking? Plus you are not saying you could do that with a deadbolt?

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to Draiman

Sounds like some old, cheap lock. A properly installed, quality lockset does not allow manipulation of the latch to gain entry. There are also plates which will protect this area from access. As far as a fire hazard, commercial doors are required to swing out as an in-swinging door is considered a fire hazard.



cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:7
reply to Draiman

said by Draiman:

Not to mention other things like an outswing can get blocked so a fire hazard or if you get snow a nightmare to use that door.

Yup. That's why almost all businesses have doors that open inwards instead of outwards.

For the sarcastically challenged, that's sarcasm.


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to jsouth

Apples and Oranges argument about the safety of inward vs. outward swing doors...

Emergency exits are required to be out swinging so that in a panic or emergency situation, a crush of people trying to get out won't prevent the door from opening.

Regular entrance/exits can be either way; although traffic flows work better with in-swinging on entrance, out-swinging on exit.

As for the security - outward swinging doors are easier to break into - the hinges are exposed, and even security hinges aren't that difficult to remove... Once the hinge side is free, it doesn't matter what kind of latch or deadbolt is on the other side. You can also get tools into the gap between the door and jamb easier on an outswing door, if you want to try and brute-force it; but reinforced jambs and door edges can minimize that risk.

At the end of the day, doors and locks keep honest or lazy people out - if they really want in, they are getting in... Regardless of what the door is made of.

@cdru - I've taken the Brotherhood Instructors Forcible entry course (that your video is from...) - by the end of the course, there isn't a commercial or residential door out there, that can't be breached in under a minute or two...


TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel
reply to nonymous

said by nonymous:

Is that true picking?

The accepted definition of lock picking is the action of manipulating the tumblers inside the lock, to get it to unlock the same as if the proper key had been inserted.


mityfowl
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
reply to jsouth

As one who has been robbed in a nice neighborhood this is what I learned.

A good door is a deterrent. Double keyed dead bolts are great if you don't have small children.
Install a floor safe outside the master bedroom
You can't stop a pro
Alarms do nothing for most people
The police are minutes away when you have seconds
Make the thief want to go next door
Use 2.5" or longer wood screws to secure the striker plate and hinge plates
Use liquid nails to secure all wood to wood surfaces. use 2.5" screws to secure these surfaces and use opposing angles
Use pins on exterior doors (from the hinge door to the jam) to keep anyone from removing hinges

I could add big dog, gun and don't be prey but...


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to LazMan

said by LazMan:

As for the security - outward swinging doors are easier to break into - the hinges are exposed, and even security hinges aren't that difficult to remove...

I'm curious how you would remove a hinge with the door closed?


mityfowl
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX

said by robbin:

said by LazMan:

As for the security - outward swinging doors are easier to break into - the hinges are exposed, and even security hinges aren't that difficult to remove...

I'm curious how you would remove a hinge with the door closed?

Exterior or interior hinge pins can be removed.

The jam pin with a keyed deadbolt removes that opportunity (at least makes it very hard) to slide/slip/pry the door out.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1

Properly installed exterior hinges with non-removable pins would be very hard to remove.

Interior or exterior, security hinge bolts complete the project with the double keyed deadbolt.

»www.amazon.com/SECURITY-HINGE-PL···ge+bolts



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to robbin

said by robbin:

I'm curious how you would remove a hinge with the door closed?

For an outswinging door, the hinges are exposed, right? The hinge pins (even in security hinges) are your weak spot - a 5# sledge and a halligan bar will pop the pins in 2-3 hits usually. If, for some reason you can't take the pins, you can always just cut the exposed portion of the hinge off, pin and all. Even with security pins/bolts in the hinge; the door is fairly easily popped - you only need about 1/4" of movement to clear the pin.

Don't get me wrong - the techniques for forced entry I know are effective, not subtle... Pounding with a sledge and halligan, cutting hinges, using a K-tool or slide hammer to remove deadbolts, etc are going to attract a LOT of attention. I'm trained to get in fast, not quietly... LOL


mityfowl
Premium
join:2000-11-06
Dallas, TX
reply to mityfowl

said by mityfowl:

said by robbin:

said by LazMan:

As for the security - outward swinging doors are easier to break into - the hinges are exposed, and even security hinges aren't that difficult to remove...

I'm curious how you would remove a hinge with the door closed?

Exterior or interior hinge pins can be removed.

The jam pin with a keyed deadbolt removes that opportunity (at least makes it very hard) to slide/slip/pry the door out.

It's all about making the thief go to the neighbors.

You can't stop a pro


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada

That's pretty much it... Make someone else's house look like an easier target.


ncbill
Premium
join:2007-01-23
Winston Salem, NC
reply to jsouth

Jambs remain the weak point for residential exterior doors - usually soft wood, a good kick has the deadbolt rip right through them.

They need to be reinforced top to bottom by pulling off the molding and installing "door jamb armor" (many google hits)



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to jsouth

Exactly most security is about making the risk not worth the reward to people. Commercial fire code creates a weakness for example. There's no reason to create the same weakness if you don't have too though an inswing door isn't that much better. I guess you could install door bolts on the opposite sides as the hinges that go into the floor/ceiling so when someone tries to kick the door open it's solid. Eventually they'll get in but it might add enough trouble to get them to stop and pick another place.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


jsouth
Jsouth

join:2000-12-12
Wichita, KS

1 recommendation

reply to jsouth

Well I got a solid core steel door and a storm door that has a deadbolt lock on it as well the screws all go in to the frame of the house and we installed this »ezarmor.com/?dt_catalog=ez-armor-combo-set as well. Also we installed more lights and some cameras around the house. They tried to get into our neighbors house last weekend but they were home in the basement and the loser thieves almost got shot. (dang.) So the neighbors did the same and also put up a mercury vapor light and also put up cameras. Also all the neighbors are starting a neighbor hood watch in the area and we are getting stepped up police patrols. We have even sent the info of all the stolen Items to all the pawn shops in the surrounding towns and as far as Nebraska, Oklahoma and Missouri, through family members. In other words we are mad as hell and are not going to take it anymore. LOL


TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel
reply to mityfowl

said by mityfowl:

Alarms do nothing for most people
The police are minutes away when you have seconds

True, since most alarm systems are installed in a way that the alarm can not be heard from outside.

A siren and flashing light on the outside of the house is the way to go. That in itself will be a pretty damned good deterrent. In seconds the whole neighborhood will be alerted. The would-be thief isn't going to stick around.

Just be careful to avoid false alarms!