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elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

1 recommendation

reply to 34764170

Re: Sounds like the same old crap.

really theres a Nobel prize in it for you if you can figure out to put 200/200 down 100 year old telco copper


silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA

They already do 100/100 with VDSL. 200/200 has been done in the lab, although I don't know of any deployments yet.



elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

in a LAB a lab is not the real world and even in the lab the distance was VERY short



tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·G4 Communications
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to elios

said by elios:

really theres a Nobel prize in it for you if you can figure out to put 200/200 down 100 year old telco copper

Just to clarify, it is not speed per sa that is the problem. It is delivering high speed over thousands of feet of copper.

ADSL and VDSL do a fantastic job moving bits over voice grade twisted pair. VDSL2 is capable of 100/100 Mbps but is limited to only 1,000 feet. Not very practical in the real world. The fact there has not been a new ADSL/VDSL standard in years indicates copper has run out of gas, even with clever modulation/recovery techniques.

80% of US customers are 15,000 feet or less from the central office. Statistics for rural customers is much worse, Less then 50% are within 15,000 feet. I'd love to see some clever engineering that utilizes existing copper infrastructure but I'm not holding my breath.

Fiber is the only solution for wired broadband. Once installed is is actually cheaper then copper because maintenance costs are much lower. The down side is high up front capital investment that no quarterly profits driven CEO is willing to make.

/tom
fixed typos


elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

1 recommendation

thats kinda what i was getting at and better said



MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1
reply to elios

Yea for real world speeds like that you need fiber, cable can do it downstream now and has to potential with upstream channel bonding to do it up as well.

But old pots lines aren't going to do it, at least not unless the vdsl box is on the customers property , at the distances needed for that kind of speed, your better off doing fiber into the house.


silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
reply to elios

Perhaps. But A single pair for VDSL can push 100/100 in real deployments in countries like Finland. If you were to bond that, you could increase both the distance and the speed.



elios

join:2005-11-15
Springfield, MO

how far was the loop bet it was under 1500feet


34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to tschmidt

said by tschmidt:

ADSL and VDSL do a fantastic job moving bits over voice grade twisted pair. VDSL2 is capable of 100/100 Mbps but is limited to only 1,000 feet. Not very practical in the real world. The fact there has not been a new ADSL/VDSL standard in years indicates copper has run out of gas, even with clever modulation/recovery techniques.

The lack of a new standard doesn't mean anything. There isn't a requirement for a new standard. The existing VDSL2 standard can have a variety of speed profiles and there is definitely on-going work by the major vendors to improve VDSL2. One such major improvement that is being rolled out by carriers around the world over the next 2 years is Vectoring which will allow existing connections able to attain 25Mbps service to now be able to attain 75/100 Mbps service. Using VDSL2 Bonding which utilizes 2 pair that can be raised to 150/200Mbps. Alcatel-Lucent is working on Phantom Mode which when used in conjunction with Bonding can further raise that upwards of 300Mbps.

said by tschmidt:

80% of US customers are 15,000 feet or less from the central office. Statistics for rural customers is much worse, Less then 50% are within 15,000 feet. I'd love to see some clever engineering that utilizes existing copper infrastructure but I'm not holding my breath.

You don't feed VDSL2 directly from the CO. That's why you build VRADs close to the customer.

said by tschmidt:

Fiber is the only solution for wired broadband. Once installed is is actually cheaper then copper because maintenance costs are much lower. The down side is high up front capital investment that no quarterly profits driven CEO is willing to make.

I don't agree and if you're hanging on to the dream of fibre everywhere it'll be just that.. a dream.

Even in the countries where people go on about fibre out the ying yang a significant portion of the users if not almost 50% are still receiving Internet via VDSL2. Fibre makes up a very small percentage of the over all broadband market around the world.

Trust me I'd love to see fibre everywhere but it is not realistic. Even Verizon with their FiOS did a pretty poor job at it.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to MovieLover76

said by MovieLover76:

Yea for real world speeds like that you need fiber, cable can do it downstream now and has to potential with upstream channel bonding to do it up as well.

Cable is unlikely to ever see symmetrical speeds or anything close to it. In theory you could do a lot better but the existing legacy services already in use to deliver TV services get in the way. Way down the road when cable providers finally migrate to an IPTV based platform and get rid of digital cable they could do things properly. But that is so far out.

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

reply to 34764170

Well I guess while they are busy moving those VRADs closer to the customer at about 1000ft they might as well finish it up and give real speeds huh?

Keep preaching the silly VDSL. It isnt going anywhere fast and hasnt for years.


34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON

4 edits

said by Skippy25:

Well I guess while they are busy moving those VRADs closer to the customer at about 1000ft they might as well finish it up and give real speeds huh?

Keep preaching the silly VDSL. It isnt going anywhere fast and hasnt for years.

Which is what I said is coming.

I am not preaching anything. I'm living in the real world unlike some of you guys deluded thinking these companies are going to roll out fibre everywhere. It isn't going to happen. I am not saying that if they all of a sudden did roll out fibre I would be against it. But these companies are not going to spend the hundreds of billions it would cost to tear out all of their existing DSL/cable networks and replace it with fibre. If it is rolled out I want to see it pretty much everywhere, not some swiss cheese coverage where it's available to houses down one side of a street and not the other side of the street like Verizon or that they're only covering a portion of the city. That's a bloody joke.


tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
kudos:9
Reviews:
·G4 Communications
·Fairpoint Commun..
·Hollis Hosting

2 edits
reply to 34764170

said by 34764170:

One such major improvement that is being rolled out by carriers around the world over the next 2 years is Vectoring which will allow existing connections able to attain 25Mbps service to now be able to attain 75/100 Mbps service.

I agree vectoring is interesting what you neglected to mention is that all vectored DLSAMs need to be under the same management so it does not work well when ILECs and CLECS serve out of the same CO. In my case my phone and ADSL is supplied by a CLEC. There are two CLECs that collocate out of our Central Office. That being said even when DSLAM are managed by multiple entities vectoring should still help – but it is not the magic bullet to higher speed.

»www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine···fiction/

Can you provide a link to a 3X vectoring improvement you cite, that is much greater then I though possible?

said by 34764170:

Using VDSL2 Bonding which utilizes 2 pair that can be raised to 150/200Mbps. Alcatel-Lucent is working on Phantom Mode which when used in conjunction with Bonding can further raise that upwards of 300Mbps.

Bonding is actually pretty interesting for carriers that are not “loop poor.” There was a big build out during the heyday of dialup so many carriers have excess loop capacity. In our case at one time we had three phone lines and a SDSL connection. Today we are down to a single voice/ADSL connection. However loop bonding is relatively expensive (multiple loops, DSLAM, modems) but is better than nothing.

As long as we are navel gazing getting rid of ATM would yield a quick 11 % increase in effective ADSL speed.

said by 34764170:

You don't feed VDSL2 directly from the CO. That's why you build VRADs close to the customer.

The problem is 1) VRADs are expensive, 2) you need a lot of them, 3) they need backup power, 4)suburban NIMBY complaints, 5) you are still limited by copper.

said by 34764170:

Trust me I'd love to see fibre everywhere but it is not realistic. Even Verizon with their FiOS did a pretty poor job at it.

That is the real question – how long will we live with a band-aid approach to broadband and when will we migrate to a purpose built high-speed network?

/tom

bdray222

join:2004-12-21
Littleton, CO

1 recommendation

reply to tschmidt

TY, well said....my additional 2cents...they need to be killing 2 birds with one stone as far as I'm concerned and laying cable vaults across the country for easy access and upgrades to facilitate a minimum of fiber and a new underground power grid (that's a whole nother topic ...Fiber is simply the only solution for data needs and growth...100 Terrabits per sec recently on fiber? Copper people? Really? You really think we won't be pushing that kind of data relatively soon? lol ...I've amassed a Terrabyte of music, would have been laughed at for even using the term "terra" ten years ago.