dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
Search similar:


uniqs
2123
uphillclimb
join:2013-01-24

1 edit

uphillclimb

Member

Connection drops on Fusion, but is stable with DSL 1

My connection was very stable with DSL 1 speeds, but disconnects me randomly (about once or twice every hour) when at higher Fusion speeds. The temporary fix implemented by Sonic.net support was to cap my speeds back down to DSL 1 speeds. Although this prevents me from being disconnected, I know my line is capable of higher speeds, and if possible, I would like to have stability at those speeds too.

2 phone jacks on the line are in use. Both phones have DSL 1 filters on them. One of the jacks connects to a phone system that has multiple units. There is also an alarm system using that line that may not be filtered; taking a look at the box where the wires go into the wall, I don't think it is. I contacted the alarm company, but there are serious communication problems with them; only one person answers calls, and he barely speaks English. I don't think the alarm company can be of much help here, so if filtering is the problem, I'm going to have to try buying a filter and installing it myself, although there might be differences between a DSL 1 and ADSL2+ filter.

I've received inconclusive information from Sonic.net's tech support. One agent thought the REN load on my line might be too high; to fix this, I unplugged one of the phones, and the reading dropped, but it didn't prevent my connection from dropping. Another said I must eliminate the alarm system as a problem before they can contact AT&T to check for possible line problems. 2 did tests by having me unplug my phone line (outside the house), but they were still unable to pinpoint any specific problems.

I need to get to the bottom of this problem so I can use the full potential of my connection. I started by looking at the alarm box myself, but it seems to have no jacks at all. I see wires that go straight into a circuit board, so I don't know how an ADSL2+ filter, if one exists for this board, would even look like. Could an alarm system cause my Internet to drop periodically, or is something else the problem? What are my best options for getting to the bottom of this problem?

CCNnorthcali
join:2004-03-07
San Francisco, CA

CCNnorthcali

Member

If you haven't tried it yet, try posting on Sonic's official support forum: »forums.sonic.net/

New filters would be a cheap, easy place to start. Other than that, I'll let some more knowledgeable members of the forum chime in.

Snypes
join:2003-12-29
Santa Rosa, CA

Snypes to uphillclimb

Member

to uphillclimb
There are definite differences between an ADSL1 and an ADSL2+ filter. The alarm is the more likely suspect here. We want to get this resolved for you so please send me your username via IM and I will take a look at your issue directly.

Thanks!

leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
Netgear CG3000DCR
ZyXEL P-663HN-51

leibold to uphillclimb

MVM

to uphillclimb
There are many things that can negatively impact a DSL connection (way too many to list them all). Some will simply limit the maximum speed that you can reach since they are a constant factor (such as distance from the CO). Other things may be of variable nature and those can lead to sporadic loss of connectivity (all sorts of external interference).

With only two phones (3 if we include the alarm) connected I don't think the REN is much to worry about.

The alarm system is a well known issue for DSL signal quality and you should find a proper solution for it. However that is primarily to improve your speeds, since it is a constant factor it is less likely to be responsible for dropped connections. My recommendation would be to install a POTS splitter between NID and alarm system. Attach the line to the alarm system (and the phone outlets inside the house) to the voice terminals in the splitter. Then install a new twisted pair line from the data terminals of the splitter directly to your DSL modem. This will eliminate the need for micro/line filters at the phones, solve the alarm problem and also take care of most inside wiring issues that may deteriorate your DSL signal.

Finding a sporadic source of interference isn't easy. Your best bet of identifying the cause of the dropped connections is two-fold:
1.) regularly check the DSL modem stats and logs and look for reasons why the connection is dropping (this varies depending on modem type and some have more informative messages then others but the idea is to see whether you are being disconnected by your own modem or the DSLAM in the CO and whether the reason is an immediate line issue or simply cumulative error counts getting too large).
2.) keep a logbook about the time of the dropped connections (and if they vary also about the durations). Try to see if the dropped DSL connections correspond to any activities inside your home (phone use, CFL lights, electronic devices used, ...) or in your neighborhood (street lights, ...).
uphillclimb
join:2013-01-24

uphillclimb

Member

leibold, thanks for the suggestions. I know almost nothing about phone lines, so I obviously have a lot of reading to do, but am I correct in assuming that I would need 3 "POTS splitters"? It sounds like I would place one where my alarm system's wiring goes into the wall, and one at each RJ11 jack inside my house. I'm making these assumptions because whatever a splitter is, if I have more than one phone, I wouldn't be able to attach the splitter to all of them unless all those phone jacks connect to a common point at which I can place the splitter. Of course my assumptions would be wrong if there is such a common point.

I guess the next logical question is, where can I buy a splitter, and what might one look like? If you can provide one specific example (say, on Amazon), it would help a lot.

leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
Netgear CG3000DCR
ZyXEL P-663HN-51

leibold

MVM

said by uphillclimb:

am I correct in assuming that I would need 3 "POTS splitters"?

No. If you are using micro (inline) filters you need for each outlet but if you are using a POTS splitter it will handle all the devices attached in your house.

You are right about the common point requirement to install the POTS splitter. Typically that is the NID (the point where the responsibility for the telco ends and the responsibility of the homeowner starts). However alarm systems have that common point requirement too (they need to be able to disconnect all phones inside the house when making an alarm call). It would therefore be extremely unusual if the alarm system isn't the first (and only) device attached to your incoming line at the NID and all the phones (plus currently the DSL modem) connected to the output side of the alarm system interface.

POTS splitters aren't difficult to find but many are still only rated for ADSL (DSL 1). All of the ones I saw on Amazon were the older ones (which may not work as well for frequencies above 1.1MHz). Splitters that are rated for ADSL2+ or VDSL will work for Sonic Fusion. Some come with their own outdoor enclosure while others are designed to fit directly into a matching NID. Since the latter is a lot easier to install, locate your NID and see if you can identify manufacturer and model number of the NID (there are many different types of NIDs and not all are suitable for the convenient plug-in install of a POTS splitter).
public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

public

Member

said by leibold:

said by uphillclimb:

am I correct in assuming that I would need 3 "POTS splitters"?

No. If you are using micro (inline) filters you need for each outlet but if you are using a POTS splitter it will handle all the devices attached in your house.

You should never use "microfilters" with adsl2. These filters create unterminated stubs, and depending on length will create reflections.
Adsl splitters may not be specified at top adsl2 frequencies, but will still have order of magnitude better rejection than the chinese crap "microfilters.

Tobester
join:2000-11-14
San Francisco, CA

Tobester

Member

Have you considered having Sonic do a Professional Installation where a whole house ADSL2+ compliant splitter is installed at the demarcation point?

leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
Netgear CG3000DCR
ZyXEL P-663HN-51

leibold to public

MVM

to public
said by public:

Adsl splitters may not be specified at top adsl2 frequencies, but will still have order of magnitude better rejection than the chinese crap "microfilters.

This is correct. I'm still using the old POTS splitters that I had installed for ADSL long before upgrading to Sonic Fusion (the performance of my line is as expected and therefore I'm not in any hurry to replace the splitters). However for a new install (and especially since the OP is trying to maximize the speed of his Internet connection) I would recommend buying correctly rated POTS splitters.

I remember Dane posting that sometimes older POTS splitters gave poor results with ADSL2+.

The suggestion from Tobester See Profile is a good one.
uphillclimb
join:2013-01-24

uphillclimb

Member

Well, from looking at the NID on the outside of my house, it's got a standard RJ11 jack, so I'm assuming a convenient plug-in install would work, if not for the alarm system.

If the alarm system is the first device behind the NID, then I suppose I would have to put the splitter between the NID and the alarm system.

The only problem with this is that the alarm system doesn't seem to use an RJ11 or RJ45 jack. It only uses colored wires that might go into a board like this: »www.amazon.com/BB400-Sol ··· 40Z1ERO/

Assuming all this is correct, then I only need to find a splitter compatible with ADSL2 that can take single wires instead of a multi-conductor cable (I'm not sure if this is the right term, but it's what you might see in a phone line that runs from your telephone to an RJ11 phone jack). Do such splitters even exist? It doesn't have to be on Amazon; any reputable online store would do.

As for the Sonic.net professional installation, I wasn't aware they offered such a service. If they do, would they be allowed to tinker with the alarm system for the sole purpose of installing a splitter (or filter) behind it?

Finally, if I fail to find a splitter, would a filter be installed in a similar manner? I assume I would need 1 filter for the alarm system and 1 for each of the phones. But finding a filter compatible with ADSL2 that takes basic wires instead of multi-conductor cables has proven to be a challenge.

leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
Netgear CG3000DCR
ZyXEL P-663HN-51

leibold

MVM

said by uphillclimb:

If the alarm system is the first device behind the NID, then I suppose I would have to put the splitter between the NID and the alarm system.

That is correct.
said by uphillclimb:

Well, from looking at the NID on the outside of my house, it's got a standard RJ11 jack, so I'm assuming a convenient plug-in install would work, if not for the alarm system.

No it is not that simple. The fact that you have an NID with RJ-11 test jack is good (some still have the old line protectors without test jack) but as I said before there are different makes and models and not all will fit POTS splitters (my NID didn't and therefore I have two separate outdoor POTS splitters mounted next to it).

The advantage of having an NID that can house the POTS splitter is that you don't need to mount an additional outdoor enclosure next to the NID with wires between the two. A downside is that it limits you in the choice of POTS splitter to those made specifically for your NID. Having the POTS splitter installed inside the NID does not eliminate any of the wiring requirements (just makes it easier due to the close proximity with the existing wires). POTS splitters are made in many different styles with all sorts of different terminations (many have screw terminals for the wires, some have RJ-11 jacks and others have IDC punch-down terminals).

POTS splitters and microfilters perform similar functions and in principle it is possible to use a microfilter instead of a splitter. The two issues are:
- a microfilter is designed for the load of a single device (phone, fax, etc.) while the POTS splitter is designed to handle the load of all devices in your home.
- the filter characteristics of a POTS splitter are generally far better then those of a microfilter.

What you definitely cannot do is trying to put a microfilter in front of your alarm system with your existing home wiring. Since currently your modem is after the alarm system you would block all the DSL signals and get no (or extremely poor) connectivity.


You have:

phone1 --- filter ---\
phone2 --- filter ----*---(inhouse wiring)--- alarm --- NID
modem ---------------/

In this (common) scenario the DSL signal spreads throughout the entire inhouse wiring with the alarm system as well as reflections at unused outlets causing some interference.


You want:

phone1 ----*---- (inhouse wiring) --- alarm --- (voice) splitter (network) --- NID
phone2 ---/ |(data)
modem -----------------(new twisted pair cable) ---------/

In the ideal scenario you split the analog voice portion of the phone line from the DSL signals as soon as possible after the NID (but definitely before the alarm system). This keeps the DSL signal out of your old inhouse wiring and creates a clean path for those signals from the NID to your DSL modem.

Depending on your specific situation and how your home was originally wired you may not have to run a new twisted pair cable. If your inhouse wiring is Cat 3 or Cat 5 twisted pair cable and all outlets are wired as separate runs you should be able to identify the one going to the DSL modem and reuse it.

Tobester
join:2000-11-14
San Francisco, CA

Tobester

Member

Dear UpHillClimb,

In re-reading this thread you don't mention what kind of telephone wire you have in your house?

Like Leibold has suggested, using Cat 3 or Cat 5 twisted pair cable will definitely give the best results.

Years ago I discovered my place is wired with the typical the Radio Shack type two parallel pair telephone wire (non-twisted) and every time I received a call on my second line, my ADSL suffered or would disconnect due to interference.

I solved the problem by running a CAT5 drop line from the NID directly to my computer, bypassing the in wall telephone wire completely. Is this a possibility for you?

If so, educate yourself about proper CAT5 installation procedures such as avoiding electrical boxes and rounding the diameter of turns like a Coke-Cola can

Also, I can confirm from experience switching from a Covad installed ADSL splitter to a Sonic installed ADSL2+ splitter increased my speeds significantly.
public
join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

public

Member

said by Tobester:

Also, I can confirm from experience switching from a Covad installed ADSL splitter to a Sonic installed ADSL2+ splitter increased my speeds significantly.

That is likely due to some installation error, or the unlikely case of a defective splitter.
uphillclimb
join:2013-01-24

uphillclimb to leibold

Member

to leibold
Thanks for all that information. leibold, your diagram was particularly helpful in getting a picture of what I need to be doing. I'll check the model/manufacturer of my NID soon. Any suggestions on how to locate a proper splitter after I find that information?

As for the telephone wire, I must admit I lack knowledge in this area. I do know about the theoretical aspects of cancelling interference using twisted pair. However, I find it a bit difficult to picture how I would install a new line myself. Doesn't the wire weave a complicated path throughout the walls in my house? How do I take out such a long wire and install a new one myself? Wouldn't I need at least 50 or 100 feet of cable? It would seem I need to be at most the size of a rat as I crawl through the walls, pulling cable behind me. The only way I can picture it being simpler than that is if there is a large "common" coil of wire that reaches every outlet, and installing a new wire simply means hooking up to that coil.

Anyways, in the meantime, I'm going to read up on how to install a phone line. If I get this working, it could prove to be a very educational experience.

leibold
MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
Netgear CG3000DCR
ZyXEL P-663HN-51

leibold

MVM

said by uphillclimb:

Any suggestions on how to locate a proper splitter after I find that information?

Since there were no POTS splitters that fit my NID I never tried shopping for one of those. My first POTS splitter (I have two lines) was made by Alcatel and came from a professional install back in the early days of DSL. The second POTS splitter I bought myself but it too is a generic model (Siecor, Corning, tii network technologies) with its own outdoor enclosure.

As for the distance to bridge and the difficulty to run new twisted pair cables each home is different. Sometimes a long cable run can turn out to be really easy and another time a short distance can appear insurmountable with difficulties. I was able to drill through the floor boards and run a cable through the crawlspace. Other people find it easier to run a cable through the attic or bring it along the outside of the house to the room of their choice.

If you are lucky you may have twisted pair cable already in your home and can re-purpose one of the pairs (since a phone line and a dsl line only require one pair each). While that may sound much easier then running a new cable, beware that you probably don't know how that existing cable is run throughout the home. Existing phone cables are often installed in the same daisy-chain fashion as electrical outlets. While that is fine for electricity, each splicing/termination at the outlets causes losses in the DSL signal. Also bad are dead ends of twisted pair cable runs (a portion of the DSL signal gets reflected back and interferes with itself). It can be far more work fixing up existing home wiring then installing a new twisted pair cable (it all depends on your specific situation).
uphillclimb
join:2013-01-24

uphillclimb

Member

I just took another look at your diagram, and I realized that no matter where I plug the splitter in, I will still have to run a wire to my modem, which, given the way my place is built, is quite a bit of trouble.

I'm willing to accept a less than ideal solution. If I can install a filter for the alarm system, I should at least prevent the connection from dropping at ADSL2 speeds, even if I won't be maxing the potential of my line because the DSL signal will be spread around.

How does an ADSL2 filter for an alarm system that has no jacks of any kind look like? Can I buy one on the market?