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Jon
Premium
join:2001-01-20
Lisle, IL

1 recommendation

reply to alkizmo

Re: EXTREME freezing temperatures - What to worry about?

Why does every thread in this forum turn into an argument about code and safety? And why is running a propane grill inside dangerous? There are houses all over the world that run entirely on propane. How is it different from a propane powered stove or furnace or fire place?

Do you guys also go to Extreme Sports forums and tell them how stupid they are for rock climbing, base jumping or whatever else they may be doing? This used to be a cool forum until all the know-it-alls came along. Now every response is "ILLEGAL" or "Call a professional". What's the point?



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by Jon:

Why does every thread in this forum turn into an argument about code and safety? And why is running a propane grill inside dangerous? There are houses all over the world that run entirely on propane. How is it different from a propane powered stove or furnace or fire place?

Do you guys also go to Extreme Sports forums and tell them how stupid they are for rock climbing, base jumping or whatever else they may be doing? This used to be a cool forum until all the know-it-alls came along. Now every response is "ILLEGAL" or "Call a professional". What's the point?

+1 - I really think they are grumpy old men who need some strife in their lives to feel alive again so here they are.
--
IF YOU FIND ANY MISTAKES IN MY WORK...Please consider that they are there for a purpose. I try to please everyone and there is always someone looking for mistakes!


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

2 recommendations

reply to Jon

said by Jon:

And why is running a propane grill inside dangerous?

Two words. Carbon monoxide.

There are houses all over the world that run entirely on propane. How is it different from a propane powered stove or furnace or fire place?

Those devices are all properly vented to the outside. I have a natural gas furnace and water heater. Both are vented to the outside. The furnace also has an outside air intake.

Do you guys also go to Extreme Sports forums and tell them how stupid they are for rock climbing, base jumping or whatever else they may be doing? This used to be a cool forum until all the know-it-alls came along. Now every response is "ILLEGAL" or "Call a professional". What's the point?

as if you know the risks? If you want to engage in risky behaviour, that is your choice. But at least know the risks.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


hm

@videotron.ca

said by DKS:

said by Jon:

And why is running a propane grill inside dangerous?

Two words. Carbon monoxide.

There are houses all over the world that run entirely on propane. How is it different from a propane powered stove or furnace or fire place?

Those devices are all properly vented to the outside. I have a natural gas furnace and water heater. Both are vented to the outside. The furnace also has an outside air intake.

Here where we live DKS, it would be rather uncommon to see. Mention propane and you get the mental picture of a one-toothed hillbilly who married his sister and roasting a steak on an outdoor grill in his kitchen with a little white propane tank next to it.

Kind of easy to get this mental picture from where we're from. But I do on the rare occasion see a propane hook-up to a non-restaurant out in the sticks.

But over in warmer states (I guess) I can see this. Just like they have propane for their stoves and ovens over there, and I have seen this in trailer parks out in Vermont, Maine and Newyork.

Most every mobile home uses this. Mine did when I had a mobile out on a lake in the states.

There does exist some very nice set-ups (restaurant quality) with very big and nice fume hoods over them.

All this really goes to show is the mental picture people from different parts of the world can get. It isn't trolling as what the guy above proclaimed. Just differences of where people live.

But hey, if he want to come out and say he does this on his Coleman camping stove...


Chinabound
Premium
join:2002-12-21
Antioch, IL
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to Jon

said by Jon:

This used to be a cool forum until all the know-it-alls came along. Now every response is "ILLEGAL" or "Call a professional". What's the point?

I used to feel the same way, and in the not so distant past. A lot of that talk was a pain in the ass to read. However, my feelings changed as I read more threads that I'd otherwise overlook. I found an abundance of wrong and dangerous suggestions. In fact, it was only a week or two ago that a thread was locked due to some (sarcastic) dangerous suggestions being made. I totally agreed with that decision, because you never know if a person is picking up on the sarcasm or not.

I'm grateful to Hellrazor and lutful for pointing a couple things out for me in my MFing Wire thread. That's one of the purposes of this forum. For me, at least.
That's the point.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
reply to DKS

Your natural gas / propane stove is vented to the outside? I never saw a gas stove with any sort of vent.



DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2

said by Bob4:

Your natural gas / propane stove is vented to the outside? I never saw a gas stove with any sort of vent.

I don't have a gas/propane stove and never said I did.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus
reply to DKS

said by DKS:

said by Jon:

And why is running a propane grill inside dangerous?

Two words. Carbon monoxide.

I hear what you're saying and I think that burning propane, itself, indoors and unvented isn't necessarily a hazard. Plenty of kitchen ranges and ovens run on propane without incident even in the winter with the house as closed up as it can be.

Now, in the case of a grill, it may be different. Many grills have the flames impinge on rocks or metal plates/bars that then radiate heat to sear the food and cause drippings to smoke. Having the flames interact with those rocks/plates MAY interfere with complete combustion (I don't know) but it does seem possible.

In any case, I'd definitely suggest a working CO detector in the room if running any unvented combustion (even a natural gas range or oven). The cost of the detector and its peace of mind seem, to me, to be worthwhile.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey

It's probably less of a hazard than cars with remote start (very popular in Canada) being parked in attached garages.



Sc0tt
Kneedragger
Premium
join:2000-11-13
Stockholm, NJ

1 edit
reply to Jon

said by Jon:

Why does every thread in this forum turn into an argument about code and safety? And why is running a propane grill inside dangerous? There are houses all over the world that run entirely on propane. How is it different from a propane powered stove or furnace or fire place?

an entire family of 5 directly next door to my work was taken to the hospital, nearly dead from carbon monoxide poisining, because after Sandy they tried to cook inside with a small camping hibachi powered with propane.

feel free to try it if you wish, just be warned of the consequences.

***edit--it was 6, and the story had the grill shown as charcoal. either one can potentially kill you though. YMMV.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Bob4

said by Bob4:

It's probably less of a hazard than cars with remote start (very popular in Canada) being parked in attached garages.

Both are hazards. I don't see a lot of remote starter systems here. Perhaps in Quebec.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.

laserfan

join:2005-01-14
Texas
reply to garys_2k

said by garys_2k:

I hear what you're saying and I think that burning propane, itself, indoors and unvented isn't necessarily a hazard. Plenty of kitchen ranges and ovens run on propane without incident even in the winter with the house as closed up as it can be.

Now, in the case of a grill, it may be different. Many grills have the flames impinge on rocks or metal plates/bars that then radiate heat to sear the food and cause drippings to smoke. Having the flames interact with those rocks/plates MAY interfere with complete combustion (I don't know) but it does seem possible.

In any case, I'd definitely suggest a working CO detector in the room if running any unvented combustion (even a natural gas range or oven). The cost of the detector and its peace of mind seem, to me, to be worthwhile.

We acquired a ventless propane heater (Vermont Castings) for one of the rooms in our house, and I was skeptical that anything with an open flame was safe to use.

The short version of the story is that modern ventless heaters are designed for extremely efficient combustion with minimal noxious by-products, but they are NEVER to be used as primary heating systems and ALWAYS need to have plenty of combustion air (oxygen) available to them, i.e there are cubic foot requirements for any such heater less-than-which one mustn't install-to. Ours is in a 20x30 vaulted ceiling "great room" with lotsa windows (which of course leak) thus it's safe. We have birds that are healthy after 10 years so I can say that with confidence.

Cooking: OK. Primary Heating: Not OK. Small space or bedroom: NOT OKAY! Not designed as a home heating device: NOT OK! Pay attention, or risk one day waking-up dead!



hm

@videotron.ca

said by laserfan:

Cooking: OK. Primary Heating: Not OK. Small space or bedroom: NOT OKAY! Not designed as a home heating device: NOT OK! Pay attention, or risk one day waking-up dead!


And once again, just wish to point out. Heaters in trailers and mobile homes are propane all over Vermont and NY. Mine had one. But I closed up the summer place in November, didn't have this all winter long. But I have seen many with this over there all winter long. Just saying. No one died.

I also seem to recall visiting people there mid-Feb and there was a problem at times with propane with it was very very cold. Don't recall what it was now. Too long ago. Anyhow you can google propane heating and propane anything in the States.

Hey, who hijacked this topic and switch it to a topic about propane?

It's just odd to see over here unless you are in a summer only trailer park off a lake. In the States it's all over the place in residential homes. Kinda like Kerosene heaters. Never saw one here, but when I was in the states, lots of people had one running in their living rooms.

Differences...


LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to garys_2k

There's a reason building code specifies exhaust vents for fuel burning stoves (I.e. your range hood) must be vented to the outside, and have a source of make-up air; most commonly tied to the HRV these days..

Ventless heaters, ranges, grills, etc all produce carbon monoxide - more efficient and properly adjusted ones produce less, but they all produce some, as a product of combustion... Ventless heaters and ventless gas fireplace logs are against code in Canada for a reason. Using a BBQ grill indoors is just stupid.

As for remote car starters, also by code, the garage must be sealed from the occupied portion of the house, and the seal must be gas proof, including caulking around all penetrations; the door must have a gasket, and an automatic closer... It's also code that there is no air exchange (heat vents or returns) within the garage space.

It's foolish to run your car in the garage for extended lentghs of time with the garage door closed, but the law has taken steps to protect people from themselves...


telco_mtl

join:2012-01-06

said by LazMan:

It's foolish to run your car in the garage for extended lentghs of time with the garage door closed, but the law has taken steps to protect people from themselves...

sadly in my experience here in the montreal area there is a hell of a lot of houses in the montreal area built pre 1970 with forced air heat that have a return AND heat duct in the garage. My usual recomendation for these is seal them and install a pair of electric baseboards set to +/- 12c

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
reply to LazMan

said by LazMan:

As for remote car starters, also by code, the garage must be sealed from the occupied portion of the house, and the seal must be gas proof, including caulking around all penetrations; the door must have a gasket, and an automatic closer...

In-law's place in Montreal has an attached garage. The door to the garage does not have an automatic closer. The living spaces above (8 units, I think) do not have carbon monoxide detectors.

I don't think people are stupid enough to run a car in a closed garage, but the cars can be started accidentally. Suppose a 3 year-old starts playing with the buttons on a keyfob.

I never heard of a requirement that residential gas ranges/ovens have an exhaust vent.

laserfan

join:2005-01-14
Texas
reply to hm

said by hm :

And once again, just wish to point out. Heaters in trailers and mobile homes are propane all over Vermont and NY. Mine had one. But I closed up the summer place in November, didn't have this all winter long. But I have seen many with this over there all winter long. Just saying. No one died.

Well, I was talking about VENTLESS heaters. Properly vented propane heaters/furnaces are no problem at all. I wish I'd had such installed myself for whole-house heating, instead of relying on (noisy) heat pumps.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus
reply to LazMan

said by LazMan:

There's a reason building code specifies exhaust vents for fuel burning stoves (I.e. your range hood) must be vented to the outside, and have a source of make-up air; most commonly tied to the HRV these days..

I guess propane and natural gas ovens are exceptions, but again, I'd use a CO detector at least for peace of mind.