 Mangix
join:2012-02-16
united state
1 edit | reply to Cabal
Re: Security Flaws in Universal Plug-n-Play: Unplug, Don't Play Let me try demystifying a couple of things since I didn't see them mentioned here:
Most of the issue surrounding this report deals with the fact that the firmware on some routers opens the UPnP port on the WAN side and as such makes in accessible by anyone.
While it's true that this is a rather big issue, the fact is that 99.9% of the routers being sold today do not do this. They only expose UPnP on the LAN side, which is where it should be.
There is also the issue of exploits that were shown in the report. The fact is, if UPnP is not exposed on the WAN side, you'd have to break into the LAN, which is easier said than done. But at that point, might as well be game over anyways. The security of modern routers at the LAN side is absolutely terrible and this will not improve anytime soon.
The best recommendation I have is if your router supports it, flash it to dd-wrt, tomato, openwrt, gargoyle, w/e. Any third party firmware should be safe. At least if it's a recent version anyways.
And while on the topic, tomato does provide some extra security in that regard. See: »dl.dropbox.com/u/102011983/Tomat···upnp.png
Secure Mode is enabled by default while UPnP is disabled by default.
Having UPnP disabled is rather inconvenient while having it enabled does not lower security too much. Especially given tomato's implementation(miniupnpd 1.6) |
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 Wily_OnePremium
join:2002-11-24
San Jose, CA | said by Mangix:Most of the issue surrounding this report deals with the fact that the firmware on some routers opens the UPnP port on the WAN side and as such makes in accessible by anyone.
While it's true that this is a rather big issue, the fact is that 99.9% of the routers being sold today do not do this. They only expose UPnP on the LAN side, which is where it should be. Good point, and exactly why the only test I was interested in was the external test. |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to Mangix
Gee, you must think everyone has new, or relatively new routers, to be telling them to flash them to WRT or something. My router will be 10 years old in October. It is vulnerable. Linksy has stated that all their older routers have the vulnerability. I don't want a new router because Linksy has been sold to Belkin (ugh) and I don't like Netgear, DLink, etc. I'll have to get a new router eventually whenever TWC finally turns on IPv6 and I am not looking forward to that day.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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Mangix
join:2012-02-16
united state | dd-wrt has very wide hardware support. The original WRT54G is still supported by dd-wrt. Not sure what your router is though. |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | Yes, it does have wide support but ONLY for newer routers. A lot of people have OLD routers. I got mine in 2003. The Oceanic TWC foreman has a Linksy router that is 12 years old...my friends have 7-10 year old routers. NONE of them are new enough to run third party software. Plus, you can't run it until your warranty (2-3 years) is over unless the word warranty is meaningless to you.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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1 edit | said by Mele20: A lot of people have OLD routers.
You could try a workaround. Someone in this thread said that the UPnP uses port 1900 UDP. So, one thing I would try is to port forward UDP 1900 in the router to a non-existent Lan IP, to some internal UPD port, say 65535 and run the test again to see if you're still vunerability.
Not saying it is going to work, but that would be the kind of thing I would try. If Linksys didn't intend the UPnP to work from the Lan Wan side, the port forward might be a way to bypass the vulnerability. Good luck.
edit: fix the side I was talking about |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | My problem is that I cannot access my router for years now. There is a bad bug that Linksy didn't bother telling about until us users stumbled on it and that was too late. I didn't insert the password TWICE on something...I have forgotten what exactly...that I was changing in the router interface and because I only inserted the password once (logical thing to do) and was not told to insert it again...that caused the router to create a RANDOM password and lock me out. I found lots of Linksy router users with the same problem...no password suggested in Linksy forums would unlock the random password.
So, I had beta firmware from Linksy Europe FTP server...never was offered in the USA because Linksy told me USA customers were too stupid to flash the beta firmware properly and too stupid to even understand they needed it. Linksy customer service was awful even when the router was new). Without the beta firmware, I can't use Ping Plotter Pro. I don't think I have a copy of the firmware on my old XP machine. So, I can't reset the router to factory default as then I can't use Ping Plotter Pro. I have to have this beta firmware. Plus, I don't want to mess with an old router resetting to factory default and then the various (this was the fifth beta firmware I installed) beta firmwares. It might kill the router or definitely mess up my network which has problems anyway and I don't need any more). Linksy was bad long before Cisco bought them. The Ping Plotter author and I both contacted them back then and they could care less...they didn't even suggest the beta firmware we found that allowed Ping Plotter to work with the router.
So, I can't turn off UPnP because I can't get into the router interface. I enabled it years ago for some Microsoft something that had to have it. Irony...huh?
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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 huh
@verizon.net | reply to Mele20
I have a ~10 year old linksys wrt54g v2 that is still supported by openwrt, ddwrt and tomato.
These days a router that supports ddwrt costs about $20. I would think in this case buying a new router would be better than keeping an old buggy one that's life has likely run its course. I mean $20 over 10-12 years? That's $2 a year and you get 802.11n support too. |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | said by huh :I have a ~10 year old linksys wrt54g v2 that is still supported by openwrt, ddwrt and tomato.
These days a router that supports ddwrt costs about $20. I would think in this case buying a new router would be better than keeping an old buggy one that's life has likely run its course. I mean $20 over 10-12 years? That's $2 a year and you get 802.11n support too.
Yeah...$20 and the shipping to Hawaii is $50.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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 DrDrewSo that others may surf.
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:8 | Just take that Netgear WNR3500L you got from the SamKnows project, which they replaced with something else, and load Tomato, DD-WRT, or something else onto it: »www.myopenrouter.com/download/list
You've already got that router, it's just collecting dust unused right? SamKnows doesn't want it back and you don't like the Netgear firmware on it.
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Two is one, one is none. If it's important, back it up... Somethimes 99.999% availability isn't even good enough. |
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 Name GamePremium
join:2002-07-07
North Myrtle Beach, SC
kudos:7 | reply to Mele20
Never found a linksys router yet you could not reset it back to the factory setting with a toothpick in the hole in the bottom when it is on or a combination of special buttons..that will then let you back in again with the default password..or none at all. so what is your model number that is it so special ?
»pcsupport.about.com/od/linksys-d···word.htm |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to DrDrew
said by DrDrew:Just take that Netgear WNR3500L you got from the SamKnows project, which they replaced with something else, and load Tomato, DD-WRT, or something else onto it: »www.myopenrouter.com/download/list
You've already got that router, it's just collecting dust unused right? SamKnows doesn't want it back and you don't like the Netgear firmware on it.
I guess it would be ok to do that. The original agreement with SK was that we would not be able to change the firmware on the Netgear until 3 years into the project which it has not been. (But they never asked for it back...still, I would need to get permission from them as they still could ask for both back when the testing ends. Plus, I don't have a converter plug for it because the TP-Link didn't come with one for USA electrical power (Neil sent me one that was lying around his office for him to test with as I was the first tester in the USA to get one of them) and he told me to just use the one for the Netgear as it would fit the TP-Link. So, I'd have to buy a converter plug that would fit it before I could try that and in Hilo...
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to Name Game
You read too fast. 
The problem is not resetting it. It is then flashing the beta firmware version I need to get Ping Plotter Pro to work with it.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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 JuggernautIrreverent or irrelevant?Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2 | A router reset does not alter FW at all. |
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said by Mele20:You read too fast. ...
I must have read too fast too. Because, earlier, I thought I read, "My problem is that I cannot access my router for years now. ... So, I can't turn off UPnP because I can't get into the router interface."
And what I thought I just read was how to reset the password to a default, so that you could presumably log into the router and turn off the UPnP.
Them reading comprehension problems. |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | I don't know how to put it more clearly. I cannot access the router's interface due to a nasty bug that reset my password long ago to an arbitrary one. Yes, I could reset the router to factory default and then I could get in its interface. BUT I can't use the router AT ALL unless it has beta firmware from Europe flashed and I can't currently access my old XP machine to try and find it ...it has an odd name for searching for it in a huge downloaded programs folder. Plus, even if I found it, I have a bad feeling about flashing a router this old with beta firmware. I don't even know if I would need to first flash 4 OLDER beta firmware versions before I would flash this one I need. (Do the beta firmware versions build upon the one before it or not? What about the actual released firmware versions since I got the router? Would I have to flash each of them and then the beta firmware versions)?
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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| Then I guess your router is broke. Not old, but broke. If you're concerned about this UPnP thing, then you'll have to get a new one.
When I looked in my router's firewall log, other than the GRC scans, I didn't see any UPnP probing. |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | Yep. I would have to get a new router whenever my ISP implements IPv6 as my router has no idea what that is...it is that old. I would rather wait awhile (since my ISP has said nothing about when IPv6 will be implemented and also because I wanted to finish paying for my new computer first). Plus, I was always going to buy another Linksy (even though support on this one was not good ....but the router was good) but now Cisco has sold Linksy to Belkin I don't think I want a Linksy, but other brands don't interest me much either.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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Mele20Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:4 | reply to Frodo
said by Frodo:Then I guess your router is broke. Not old, but broke. If you're concerned about this UPnP thing, then you'll have to get a new one.
Maybe not. I just read the Defense Code paper. My router does not have a Broadcom chip. The chip is a Kendin Ks8695. I doubt it is vulnerable. Linksy should list which ones of theirs are vulnerable. I doubt that any Linksy routers so old that DD-WRT firmware cannot be made to work on them are vulnerable.
On an ironic note, I now remember that it was my activating UPnP in the router that caused the nasty bug to trigger that set a random password. I stumbled on the threads at Linksy just now and decided to again try the passwords users say are what the router sets when it sets a "random" one (and that worked for some users but not others). They didn't work on Fx but I thought, what the heck, I'll try on IE as one has a character that evidently the browser adds...so I did that and IE popped a Security Warning that the Linksy User Name and Password would be transmitted as plain text 
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson |
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Name GamePremium
join:2002-07-07
North Myrtle Beach, SC
kudos:7 | reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:I don't know how to put it more clearly. I cannot access the router's interface due to a nasty bug that reset my password long ago to an arbitrary one. Yes, I could reset the router to factory default and then I could get in its interface. BUT I can't use the router AT ALL unless it has beta firmware from Europe flashed and I can't currently access my old XP machine to try and find it ...it has an odd name for searching for it in a huge downloaded programs folder. Plus, even if I found it, I have a bad feeling about flashing a router this old with beta firmware. I don't even know if I would need to first flash 4 OLDER beta firmware versions before I would flash this one I need. (Do the beta firmware versions build upon the one before it or not? What about the actual released firmware versions since I got the router? Would I have to flash each of them and then the beta firmware versions)?
Of course not.. hard reset it to factory setting and then put on what you like. each beta is not stacked. » www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Re···ad_Flash» www.idealinternet.co.uk/restore-···ware.tpl--
Gladiator Security Forum
»www.gladiator-antivirus.com/
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