dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
26
share rss forum feed
« Dat Bitrate
This is a sub-selection from Why would they?

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

1 recommendation

reply to silbaco

Re: Why would they?

Please get a clue about how this works and how the internet in general works.

When you get that clue you will clearly see that it is a win-win situation for both of them with the ISP getting the better of it.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
Alright, since you clearly think I know nothing, explain it to me.

Explain to me how a Tier 1 like Verizon, who pays nothing for peering benefits from this. How it helps them make more money by peering directly with Netflix's network, with Verizon footing the costs, which just do happens to compete with Verizon's TV offerings. How increasing traffic in the last mile will help Verizon. How Verizon will be benefited from a contract that promises not to charge them for peering "for now" but no guarantee about the future, regardless of Tier-1 status?

Explain to me how small ISPs that are not within a hundred miles of the Netflix Open Connect Content Delivery Network will benefit from from a network they can't peer to even if they wanted to? How small ISPs that don't meet the traffic requirements for the appliance hardware will magically benefit from a program they don't qualify for? Which by the way, you are supposed to peer to the Netflix Open Connect Content Delivery Network to use?

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
Because oh wise one.

Netflix for the most part uses Level 3 for their ISP so they will be the example here. Verizon (insert any IPS even your small ones) will thus get all Netflix traffic that their customers request from Level 3 without them agreeing to host caching servers and thus it will affect their peering agreement with Level 3. That is how peering agreements work.

Now if Verizon were to agree to have FREE caching servers on their network they will benefit 3 ways.
1.) They will get a lot less traffic between them and Level 3 to get the content that their customers are requesting being that it will be cached internally thus saving them money.
2.) They will get the "upgraded" content.
3.) They will make their consumers more happy being that probably millions of them use Netflix.

Netflix of course benefits because they send out less data saving them money AND they get to offer a higher service to their customers.

You bring up last mile crap is just that.. crap. The customers are going to request the data, Verizon is going to deliver that data. They can either deliver it cheaper and better by having caching servers or they can deliver it more expensively and try to beat down a competitor by not allowing the better quality. But then again, Netflix (and I would recommend this) can fight back by allowing FIOS customers to get the high quality stuff anyway forcing Verizon to spend more money on the content their very customers are requesting. So Verizon can choose to help them both out or Verizon can be an ass and choose to hurt them both.

silbaco
Premium
join:2009-08-03
USA
Netflix CDN is a separate network. It may use Level 3 infrastructure, but that is irrelevant. It can only be peered free of charge at these locations:

Ashburn, VA: Equinix Internet Exchange
Atlanta, GA: Telx Internet Exchange
Chicago, IL: Equinix Internet Exchange
London, UK: LINX and LONAP
Los Angeles, CA: Any2 Internet Exchange
Miami, FL: NAP Of The Americas
New York, NY: Telx Internet Exchange, Equinix Internet Exchange, NYIIX
San Jose, CA: Equinix Internet Exchange

So... what is an ISP going to do if they do not operate in those regions? Well they are not going to peer obviously. They may peer with someone who does peer with Netflix, but it seems that it doesn't matter. You peer with Netflix or not at all. Even if they do operate in these regions, they have to haul the traffic all over their network. Very inconvenient. And these caching servers are not candy. Netflix isn't going to just hand them out. They have a list of requirements to qualify, that doesn't even mean you will get one. And if you don't peer with them, you probably are not going to get one.

Most importantly they compete with existing TV services. Verizon would be foolish to work with Netflix if all it does in return is eat into their revenue stream.

Skippy25

join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
I believe the biggest point you are missing is that Netflix is going to be eating into their revenues regardless so it would be to their benefit to work with them to save them both money.

Do you think subscribers are going to cancel Netflix just because they can't get this upgraded service? No, they are going to continue to stream movies OR if they have the option and it is important enough to them they may very well change services to get the upgraded Netflix. So now the ISP has to deal with Netflix traffic passing their peering points and possibly losing customers which again will effect their revenue. Again, it would be to THEIR benefit to work with Netflix to save them both money.

Smaller ISP's could still benefit if they had to pay for the caching servers and connection as well. Ultimately it would be for them to decide if it is cost benefit enough as their customers are going to request the Netflix data. Would it make more since for it to all have to pass 1 time to get to many people on their network or do it for every customer that request it?


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to silbaco
said by silbaco:

So... what is an ISP going to do if they do not operate in those regions? Well they are not going to peer obviously. They may peer with someone who does peer with Netflix, but it seems that it doesn't matter. You peer with Netflix or not at all. Even if they do operate in these regions, they have to haul the traffic all over their network. Very inconvenient. And these caching servers are not candy. Netflix isn't going to just hand them out. They have a list of requirements to qualify, that doesn't even mean you will get one. And if you don't peer with them, you probably are not going to get one.

It most certainly does matter if you peer with somebody who peers with Netflix. That's how a lot of Canadian ISPs got on OpenConnect.

Netflix doesn't care if your ISP peers with them or not. They care if the traffic goes out through their OpenConnect peering connections, or if it goes out through their paid transit.

The other way to get on OpenConnect, if you're not near a Netflix peering point, is to accept the free OpenConnect caching hardware and stick that on your network. That's how my ISP got on OpenConnect, despite not peering with Netflix.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org

chomper87

join:2012-02-22
Clearwater, FL
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
·CenturyLink

1 edit
reply to Skippy25
BTW I really don't disagree with you or the other side, something is missing

1. I agree it's really a win for all

but

2. Verizon and Redbox have Instant

3. This "OpenConnect" CDN, I don't care what's it's called - is something that Netflix would normally have to PAY Verizon to connect to. - just as Netflix PAYS Level 3. So offering this new CDN for "free" is not an incentive for Verizon.

4. Verizon Owns and Operates this place:
Miami, FL: NAP Of The Americas
»www.terremark.com/data-centers/a···cas.aspx

Verizon can freely peer with almost anyone if they wanted to. But they don't. That's how the Internet works. The Tier 1's are all friends. The others have to pay the Tier 1's if they want to connect.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:2
reply to Skippy25
said by Skippy25:

Smaller ISP's could still benefit if they had to pay for the caching servers and connection as well.

Can you throw out how you define "smaller ISP's"? I operate an EXTREMELY small ISP, and don't consider my network anywhere close to even being large enough to be considered "small" but even so, it takes a heck of a large network to be able to get any benefit from the servers.

Even if Netflix were to give me the caching server, I need to supply it with a 5 gbps connection in order for it to update the content nightly. In a metro area where you have access to datacenters containing many of the Tier-1 providers, sure, that's no problem. You can do the peering then too.

But for any ISP in rural areas, this is a non-starter. It costs $5,000 a month in my region just to get a 100 mbps fiber connection to backhaul bandwidth from a metro area. The prices per meg go down as you go to gigabit and above, but still that's a hell of a price tag just to feed the caching server, and I consider any ISP big enough to have that much traffic to not be considered "small" anymore. Sure, they may not be giants like VZ, etc, but I consider that to be at least a medium to large provider.

TBBroadband

join:2012-10-26
Fremont, OH
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
·MegaPath
reply to silbaco
You don't have to peer with them at their data centers. You can cache their content with their boxes as well. But its limited to many ISPs as they are required to have X amount of traffic to NF at a given time. So its back to square one for most of them. The Open Connect system is pointless for a great deal of ISPs that actually compete with AT&T, VZ, Comcast, etc.