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mbernste
Boosted
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-30
Piscataway, NJ

[WIN8] Windows 8 Review

He makes some excellent points. I agree with much of what he has to say. Thoughts?

»youtu.be/WTYet-qf1jo


Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2

Great video and quite entertaining too. I agree with much he has to say too. Not sure why it is so hard to figure out how to close a Metro app. That's pretty easy... try Googling it like I had to. Uh...then again, why should you need to Google anything with regard to the most basic aspect of OS operation? That's why I give him some slack. I totally agree that Windows 8 is worthy of a product recall. It shouldn't be on the shelves in its present form.



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

I guess he didn't watch the video windows 8 plays you when you install it.

Microsoft does have a really nice "how to use it" site now, as well. Close an app is right here:

»windows.microsoft.com/en-US/wind···s#1TC=t1
--
My place : »www.schettino.us



plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3
reply to mbernste

I watched about 10 minutes of it, and while I will say that to some people, his views are correct. If you are expecting things to be in the exact same place as they were in previous versions of windows, or the steps to perform a given task to be exactly the same as in previous versions of windows, you might as well not even run it.

This review (at least to me), makes that assumption on everything.

I've been using it off and on now for about 3 months. While the Start Screen (aka Metro) was quite the shock to me, I did not feel it was that hard to figure out. The underlying directory structure, as well as the underlying functions match what they do inside of Windows 7.

I've said it a few times on here in different threads, but I think its worth saying again. While we all know exactly where everything was in Windows 7, and the exact steps to get things to operate (in fact some of us can quote specific tasks without even being in front of the PC), IF you approach Windows 8 with an OPEN MIND, and embrace the new OS, it is not as bad as he is making it out to be.

I'm not saying forget everything you ever knew about Windows 7, or any previous versions you may have used before it. What I am saying is to approach it with an open mind, and for just a few seconds, forget what you know about previous versions, and see what the new OS is about. Don't open it and try to change it back to what Windows 7 (or Vista, or XP) looked like because "you liked how things worked and functioned in" that OS. If you are so happy with Windows (insert your favorite version here), then stay with that version. No one is putting a gun to your head and going "YOU WILL USE WINDOWS 8, AND YOU WILL LIKE IT". If you buy a new computer and it comes with Windows 8, and you want to run Windows XP, Format the drive, install Windows XP, and be done. Again, you don't have the FBI standing in your house with a gun to your head going "YOU JUST GOT THIS DELL WITH WINDOWS 8 ON IT...IF YOU FORMAT THE DRIVE, WE WILL KILL YOU, SO USE WINDOWS 8."

I have no idea what he was talking about when he made the reference to the Weather App just "popping up full screen on its own". Even in Windows 8, you have to CLICK on the app for it to get to full screen, it just does not do it on its own.

For me, I never ran Vista. I went from XP to Windows 7. While the "shock" of the UI made me go "Where the heck did they move ?" or "How do I find x", that only lasted for about 20 minutes. Once I sat down, and took a few deep breaths, I was at home in Windows 7. The same can be said for me with Windows 8. Yes its different, and yes it looks nothing like Windows 7 (at least from the Start screen), but once you get past that, things work the same. Everything in the Control Panel is the same as it was inside of Windows 7. Windows Explorer still works the same way, you have the same options to view hidden or system files, folders, etc.

--Brian

--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail



goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

I guess he didn't watch the video windows 8 plays you when you install it.

No, I think it's more a case of do you use your pc recreationally or to get work done.

Intro videos are nice, but some of us need to produce. That often means multitasking, for example. Anything that slows us down costs us time and money.


La Luna
RIP Lisa
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3

So that means you never make the time to learn something new? That seems rather unproductive.

We heard tons of similar complaints when Vista, then Windows 7 came out, but people finally learned how to adjust and the world didn't explode. People make it worse on themselves by resisting and subbornly refusing to take the time to learn something new just because they "shouldn't have to". Might as well adapt, or get left behind. Eventually, people will have to do it, whether they like it or not.
--
The Alien in the White House

20,196 DEADLY TERROR ATTACKS SINCE 9/11



plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3

said by La Luna:

So that means you never make the time to learn something new? That seems rather unproductive.

We heard tons of similar complaints when Vista, then Windows 7 came out, but people finally learned how to adjust and the world didn't explode. People make it worse on themselves by resisting and subbornly refusing to take the time to learn something new just because they "shouldn't have to". Might as well adapt, or get left behind. Eventually, people will have to do it, whether they like it or not.

This is exactly my point. Its not just Windows that is changing with each release. Look at cell phones, or TV's, or even a car. Sure, the basic function of the device is the same, but the way you use it, or the steps needed to use it may change slightly (and that's the key word).

Example: Look at the Model T, the first automobile, which was made in September of 1908. Compare it to a Ford made in 2013. Do they look EXACTLY the same (Color, design of the car, shape of the steering wheel, location of and devices on the dashboard)? To operate it, do you perform the EXACT same set of steps? Of course not. They are different cars with different steps involved to get them started, and to operate them. While the differences between these two are very large, if you look at the changes made each year a new car came out, those changes are probably very small. The bottom line is that both cars will perform the task they were built for: To get you from Point A to Point B without having to walk.

Windows 8 does exactly the same things that Windows 7 does. You just may have to modify slightly the actual steps (mouse clicks perhaps) to get them done. In the grand scheme of things, is it really that big of a deal to have to click the mouse 3 times instead of two to open an application? I don't know of any business, industry, or job function where someone is standing next to you with a stopwatch, and will punish you if you cannot open Word in the exact same amount of time that you did in Windows 7. If you work in such a place, where people stand next to you with a stopwatch and a big hammer, and keep track of how long it takes you to go from application to application, and record all that, so when you get to Windows 8, and they see you are taking more steps and more time, they will hit you over the head with the hammer. After 5 hits, you get fired. If that is the case, you need to find a new job.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3
reply to plencnerb

Apparently you didn't pay attention in the video, yet you claim he made an assumption on everything. When he moved his finger on the touchpad from left to right anywhere it was triggering the side action of recalling another loaded metro app. This is what was screwing up the progress, and likely the fault of some touchpad drivers in my opinion. If they could have plugged in an external mouse it would have gone far smoother, but the unwanted app switching was interrupting his work, along with trying to figure out how to close the metro app.
--
I distrust those people who know so well what god wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires- Susan B. Anthony
Yesterday we obeyed kings, and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to the truth- Kahlil G.



goalieskates
Premium
join:2004-09-12
land of big

1 edit
reply to La Luna

said by La Luna:

So that means you never make the time to learn something new? That seems rather unproductive.

We heard tons of similar complaints when Vista, then Windows 7 came out, but people finally learned how to adjust and the world didn't explode. People make it worse on themselves by resisting and subbornly refusing to take the time to learn something new just because they "shouldn't have to". Might as well adapt, or get left behind. Eventually, people will have to do it, whether they like it or not.

No, it doesn't mean that. But do you have any idea how often I mouse left to right for a reason? So I'm supposed to put up with an o/s reading it as a swipe when it's not? Why?

It's not about being stubborn, it's about knowing what I need to do on a daily basis to get work done. That's not something anyone can force on me, because there are other options for o/s. It also means if Microsoft keeps this up my software dollars and those of people like me go elsewhere. I can live with that, I've already checked into running my apps, but can they?

Bottom line for me is that a lot of the Win8 "improvements" are pretty but irrelevant and occasionally detrimental. Sometimes it's not that you're left behind because you're stubborn, it's that the ones leaving you behind forget their core mission and go off on a tangent. There's no such thing as too big to fail, even if it's Microsoft.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to goalieskates

said by goalieskates:

said by JohnInSJ:

I guess he didn't watch the video windows 8 plays you when you install it.

No, I think it's more a case of do you use your pc recreationally or to get work done.

Intro videos are nice, but some of us need to produce. That often means multitasking, for example. Anything that slows us down costs us time and money.

I don't get this at all. My statement was simply that he didn't bother to learn the three new gestures he needed to use Metro. Swipe down (or right click with mouse) Swipe in from right (or mouse to right corner) and Swipe in from left (or mouse to left corner)

There, you learned everything you need to know for Metro.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

BlitzenZeus
Burnt Out Cynic
Premium
join:2000-01-13
kudos:3

You're still ignoring how the touchpad was not responding correctly, but that's besides the fact they didn't try to good ol' trusty alt+f4 to close the metro app, which I did at first in beta since there was no kind of instructional video at all.



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

said by BlitzenZeus:

You're still ignoring how the touchpad was not responding correctly, but that's besides the fact they didn't try to good ol' trusty alt+f4 to close the metro app, which I did at first in beta since there was no kind of instructional video at all.

Yep it's still Windows.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Guru

join:2008-10-01
kudos:2
reply to mbernste

I don't know if anyone else feels this way but I can't stand the guy! I couldn't even listen to him for more than 2 minutes!



kvn864

join:2001-12-18
Sun City, AZ
kudos:1

Guru, me too, I can't figure out what is the purpose of this flick. If you don't like green apples, get red ones instead. There is no need to watch this thing IMO.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by goalieskates:

said by JohnInSJ:

I guess he didn't watch the video windows 8 plays you when you install it.

No, I think it's more a case of do you use your pc recreationally or to get work done.

Intro videos are nice, but some of us need to produce. That often means multitasking, for example. Anything that slows us down costs us time and money.

I don't get this at all. My statement was simply that he didn't bother to learn the three new gestures he needed to use Metro. Swipe down (or right click with mouse) Swipe in from right (or mouse to right corner) and Swipe in from left (or mouse to left corner)

There, you learned everything you need to know for Metro.

What are you guys talking about an Intro video that plays when you start Win 8 the first time? THERE IS NO SUCH THING. You just get thrown on the OS and Microsoft tries to FORCE you to create a Microsoft account to use instead of a local account so they can track you all the time. There is NO video...no orientation to the weirdness that comprises Win 8 on the Metro side and that is totally worthless if you have a desktop. All Metro does is slow you down and there is no way to completely stay off Metro. If I could stay on the Desktop ALWAYS I could be ok with Win 8 but I am forced to Metro (even with Start8) because search on desktop doesn't work for some things. You must search on Metro. That sucks badly and I still may downgrade to Win 7 because of this.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

said by Mele20:

What are you guys talking about an Intro video that plays when you start Win 8 the first time?

We're talking about the video that plays while it is "preparing for first use" - I have done 10 installs, it's played that same video 10 times. Even on the Surface RT.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3

1 edit

said by JohnInSJ:

said by Mele20:

What are you guys talking about an Intro video that plays when you start Win 8 the first time?

We're talking about the video that plays while it is "preparing for first use" - I have done 10 installs, it's played that same video 10 times. Even on the Surface RT.

Correct. I've also done at least 2 dozen installs of Windows 8. At some point in the install process, you get the little demo that we are talking about.

I also believe that once Windows 8 is installed and running, if you create a new user account (not sure if it has to be a local user, or it can be a Microsoft Account), it will also run that little demo too on the very first time you login to that new account.

It shows you how to "move the mouse to any corner" and the Charms bar will come up. The video shows the mouse moving to the top right corner, and then the Charms bar pops out. However, if you move the mouse to the top left corner, or the bottom left corner, you don't get the charms bar, so that is a bit mis-leading. However, if you follow what the video shows, and not what the text says, you will have no problems getting the charms bar to pop up.

Here's a video from Youtube that shows this. Start watching around the 6:30 mark to see what we are talking about. The Screen will be black, and the text "Check out the new way to use Windows" will be displayed.

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdpgSxulr_4


--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail


SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1
reply to mbernste

I've been using Windows 8 for a few days now, and I can see how first impressions on a non-touchscreen device would present a "what kind of crap is this" reaction. But looking at it from a touchscreen-enabled perspective... I actually see some impressive work, maybe even brilliance. Nothing is perfect, but this is a bold step in the right direction with solid roots still in a standard MS operating environment (desktop). Eventually, with touchscreen capability, a desktop environment will fade as a primary need.

Personally, I like it. I'm already thinking about how a touchscreen laptop or tablet would really make this OS complete.. So maybe it's cause enough to upgrade...



Kramer
Premium,Mod
join:2000-08-03
Richmond, VA
kudos:2
reply to mbernste

I don't think anyone here is specifically being critical or supportive of his basic conclusions with any detail. The man is making a number of valid or invalid points. Either refute them, agree with them or move on to another thread, but lets not make this another I hate or love Windows 8 thread.

Is Windows 8 "User-Hostile"?

CONTROL- The weakest argument Boyco makes is with regard to control but I don't disagree with him completely here. I don't know what his problem was that caused the weather app to keep popping up, but that isn't normal. If you know how to use Windows 8, you almost have complete control of it. With any operating system I have used, you do things by clicking things. I occasionally use my wife's Mac. I stumble around by clicking on various objects and eventually getting to where I want. In Windows 95 through WIN 7 you had the start button. There were specific objects you interacted with to make things happen. All the keyboard shortcuts are fine and dandy, but the operating systems were mouse based and the primary means of navigation within the operating system were by using a mouse. With the introduction of Windows 8, Microsoft has eliminated the object in some important controls. They have replaced those with "sweet spots". I have two monitors as do a lot of people I know. When you try and find the sweet spot to get the charms bar, it requires a great deal of concentration. If you go a little to far to the right, you move over to another monitor. If you don't go far enough you get nothing. There is no visual object to select. It is all location based and you lose a lot of control when that is the case.

CONVEYANCE- The user should be visually able to figure out where to go to get things done. Windows 8 fails miserably here. As stupid as it was, you always knew you could go to the start button to shut down the computer. In Vista Microsoft wisely took the name off the button, but it still did the same thing. From the start menu, one could find a program, shut down their computer, search for things, and do lots of other chores. A monkey could have figured it out. There is absolutely not one visual clue when you look at either the Windows 8 Start Screen or Desktop of where you go to get these things done. I don't see how anyone could argue that Microsoft has not degraded the conveyance of information in Windows 8.

CONTINUITY- There couldn't be a bigger fail for Microsoft. If you do something in part of the operating system, doing that exact same thing in another should achieve the same result. In Desktop mode you close a program by clicking the X in the right top of the screen. In Metro, there is no X. You hunt for one of those delightful sweet spots at the top of the app and you drag the app to the bottom of the screen. There is nothing that CONVEYS that information to you and there is no CONTINUITY within the operating system itself that that method would be appropriate. This is what happens when you combine two operating systems into one.

CONTEXT-I'm a little unclear here as to the difference between CONTEXT and CONVEYANCE. I'm not sure where the concept of the 4-Cs originated. Is this something Boyco came up with himself? I'll go along with his arguments, because I think he is right here, but I'm not so sure there is a big difference between CONTEXT and CONVEYANCE. Boyco mentions the Start screen itself and says it should be called "The Taskpanel." I don't know about that. He makes a better argument when he talks about the "Charms Bar". What the heck does "Charms" have to do with anything? What does that convey to the user? His strongest argument is hen he talks about the lack of information in Metro itself. You look at a some tiles and wonder what the heck they do. There is nothing in the Photos tile that tells you anything if you don't recognize the photos they place in it. The travel icon tells you nothing. There is absolutely no information to help you. Where they do put in titles, the text size is small compared to the whole icon. There is a lot to complain about with regard to conveyance and context with Metro, simply looked at alone.

The weakest part of Boyco's presentation is the lack of curiosity found within. How hard would it have been to find out how to shut down a Metro app? Did he really think that weather app popping up un-expectantly was something that was supposed to happen? When you make a good argument and pepper it with nonsense, everyone writes you off. He needs to clean up the presentation because in my opinion he makes some very valid points.



jaa
Premium
join:2000-06-13
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vonage
·Optimum Online
reply to La Luna

said by La Luna:

So that means you never make the time to learn something new? That seems rather unproductive.

What is unproductive is having to learn something new. May as well just get a Mac, or Linux.

When I buy a new car, I don't have to "learn" something new. I just get in and drive - because I know how to drive.
--
NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 recommendation

said by jaa:

What is unproductive is having to learn something new.

And you knew how to use an iPhone (or Android, or whatever touch phone you use...) the first time you picked it up? Pinch zoom, you always did that did you?

At some point what you know now, you didn't know, because it was new. Now it's not. In a handful of minutes you would learn the trivial new things to learn to use Win8... with a mouse or touch. Then you'd never need to relearn them.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us
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PeteC2
Got Mouse?
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-20
Bristol, CT
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to mbernste

Re: [WIN8] Windows 8 Review

He makes rather weak points. He takes a minor issue (which to be sure Win 8 has a few of) then proceeds to expand it beyond the reality to support his personal feelings about the OS. A simplistic, distorted analysis bordering on being a "propaganda" piece.

Without a doubt, MS's attempt to create an "all-in-one" OS, capable of running on traditional desktops/laptops, touch screen computers, tablets, and smart phones has been an ambitious attempt with somewhat uneven results.

Win 8 has some rough edges to be sure, but it is not without merit, and certainly I find no problem using it productively in both work applications as well as for personal use.

Since I do not have a touch screen laptop, and am happy with android for my tablet & smart phone, I do not find Win 8 particularly compelling for me, although I do have it installed on my notebook, however, it works well enough, and I really have no major complaints (a few minor ones).

Frankly, the guy comes across as a whiner.
--
Deeds, not words

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jaa
Premium
join:2000-06-13
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Vonage
·Optimum Online

1 edit
reply to JohnInSJ

Re: [WIN8] Windows 8 Review

said by JohnInSJ:

said by jaa:

What is unproductive is having to learn something new.

And you knew how to use an iPhone (or Android, or whatever touch phone you use...) the first time you picked it up? Pinch zoom, you always did that did you?

Yep! Never needed an instruction manual, never had to look something up - it just worked. Even something new and different like that.

No, I didn't know everything day 1. But I was able to do everything I needed to - make and receive phone calls, surf the web, setup email, use email, etc. I learned new features as needed. Sort of like I don't know every feature of Word - but I can write a letter, and when I need to do some formatting, or add footnotes - it is pretty natural to figure it out.

I don't recall forum threads about the iPhone when it was introduced saying how unusable it was.

Boyko was right on the money.
--
NOTHING justifies terrorism. We don't negotiate with terrorists. Those that support terrorists are terrorists.
Expand your moderator at work