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elizabeth

join:2010-07-23

Comcast business is $60 a month

Unsubsidized Comcast business is $60 a month. Why does any school or library need a subsidy?

axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
Well, that's over $10000 for 15 years of service, but not millions!


morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to elizabeth
Most schools have hundreds or thousands of computers and users. A basic Comcast business internet account will not support this level of use. We haven't discussed telephone needs...

Edit: I do not support the USF or E-Rate programs. I agree that these are slush funds abused by the providers and recipients.


skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
Premium
join:2012-01-26
AA169|170
kudos:2
Perhaps it would if the instructors would stop watching porn and surfing eBay.


kontos
xyzzy

join:2001-10-04
West Henrietta, NY
reply to elizabeth
said by elizabeth:

Unsubsidized Comcast business is $60 a month. Why does any school or library need a subsidy?

Because if a school doesn't buy the e-rate product they do have to pay for it themselves.
If they go through the e-rate program, they won't have to pay, and the e-rate sales team at the ISP/Telco will help them find the equivalent service which will be billed in the $6000 per month range. So the IT people for the school, look at their cost for simple business class service: ~$700/year or e-rate service: $FREE.
Then they go for the cheaper option.

Everybody wins. The Gov't/FCC has helped a school get Internet access, the school gets a connection, and the ISP makes a sale.

And that's when there isn't even any fraud involved.

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
·Charter
It appears you're not familiar with how e-rate works. The pricing on most dedicated services is driven by a state contract to begin with, so schools already get better than commercial pricing. Then the e-rate discount percentage is based on the population that qualifies for free/reduced lunches. Those with high enough percentages qualify for more + additional funding categories.

Rarely does e-rate make a connection outright free. It also covers basic telephone access, cellular, and long distance, not just Internet service.


kontos
xyzzy

join:2001-10-04
West Henrietta, NY
said by mj3431:

It appears you're not familiar with how e-rate works.

Actually I think I am.
said by mj3431:

The pricing on most dedicated services is driven by a state contract to begin with, so schools already get better than commercial pricing.

Yes, they're funneled to the high-cost/high-margin services available on the e-rate contract; even if a simple and cheap solution would be appropriate. This is exactly how you see stories here about small rural schools in WV using e-rate to get a pair of redundant $50k installed.
So exactly as I said, you get a really nice and expensive service installed even though a cheaper alternative could have been just as good at solving the problem.

said by mj3431:

Rarely does e-rate make a connection outright free. It also covers basic telephone access, cellular, and long distance, not just Internet service.

In the public sector, getting grant money is seen as a goal on its own. Spending a couple thousand to bring in several thousand in grants is viewed by many even if there are no benefits realized from the grants. The size of the kingdom is still increased.

pandora
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
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reply to morbo
said by morbo:

Most schools have hundreds or thousands of computers and users. A basic Comcast business internet account will not support this level of use. We haven't discussed telephone needs...

Edit: I do not support the USF or E-Rate programs. I agree that these are slush funds abused by the providers and recipients.

Does anyone have a link to a .gov site which could tell us how many network devices a school has?

I have Comcast business and it's pretty decent. If an area doesn't have decent Internet infrastructure, shouldn't we be more concerned with a build out, than to expensive stuff to one or two buildings while the rest of a community has nothing?
--
Congress could mess up a one piece jigsaw puzzle.

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to kontos
Perhaps providers and competition are a little different in NY. In MO there's often not multiple options for dedicated high bandwidth access.

If an organization is being steered toward a product they don't need, don't blame the provider. Blame the idiot IT manager for not doing his/her homework and purchasing a product that is unnecessary. The goal of the business is to make money.

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
said by mj3431:

Perhaps providers and competition are a little different in NY. In MO there's often not multiple options for dedicated high bandwidth access.

Level 3, Verizon Business/MCI, Cogent, TW Telecom, Windstream, will run metro business fiber anywhere if you sign a contract, plus the local cable co. All them have metro fiber in MO.

mj3431

join:2003-04-21
STL, MO
Reviews:
·Charter
This is getting OT, but I'm aware of all of this, and none of them pass a building I'm familiar with.

And yes, I already asked the local cable, 2 area telcos, and Windstream, and they all refused to build to that location because there were no other business opportunities near it. They (recently) all told me they just couldn't make any money off it. Period. Thanks to federal stimulus funding the building will be a Community Anchor and served with 1Gbps service before the year ends for little more than 2 T-1's now.


WYOIT

@bresnan.net
Or you have CenturyLink or Optimun that want several thousand dollars to build out a few hundred feet of fiber... in one case $15,000 for 90 feeet. E-Rate does have some success, but it is still all bureaucratic BS. I know there are a couple progressive states with smart leadership in IT looking to adjust things in that area... time will tell if it will work.

pandora
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join:2001-06-01
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reply to pandora
I just went to the article, Cox Cable provides cable and internet in Whiteriver Arizona. The school district that is a "success" per the article about E-Rate fraud.

The total IT expenditures reported by the school to the state are $33,000 out of about a 19 million dollar school budget.

Why is this "success" being subsidized? The school should contact Cox Cable, and ask about a business rate.
--
Congress could mess up a one piece jigsaw puzzle.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
Is this a public or private school? I would strongly agree that all private schools should be inelligible for these funds... they are businesses after all and SHOULD get business accounts. Public schools, however, are already paid paid for by tax dollars so subsidizing services seems perfectly reasonable to me. The tax is hardly 'outrageous'; mismanaged obviously but the answer to that is to manage it properly, not get rid if it. Cut private school businesses off the corporate welfare teat and the fee will go down considerably.

The argument that 'communities should have found a way to make due by now' is ridiculous. That is like saying they should get rid of busses because the kids should have found other ways to get to school by now.

pandora
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said by CXM_Splicer:

Public schools, however, are already paid paid for by tax dollars so subsidizing services seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Public schools will make better decisions if they are aware of prices. There have been umpteen stimulus programs, Internet build out programs, and what not over the past few administrations. It's time to stop this boondoggle. I'd like to see both the federal subscriber line charge AND the 911 charge removed from our bills.

Local communities can fund their schools, police and fire. They will make better decisions without bureaucrats in the federal government publishing regulations.
--
Congress could mess up a one piece jigsaw puzzle.


skeechan
Ai Otsukaholic
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reply to pandora
All public schools are "subsidized". Whether it comes out of the left pocket of the taxpayer (e-rate or whatever) or the right pocket (state and Federal spending) is pretty irrelevant. None of it is the "school's money" and they'll never be careful with it...ever.

pandora
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said by skeechan:

All public schools are "subsidized". Whether it comes out of the left pocket of the taxpayer (e-rate or whatever) or the right pocket (state and Federal spending) is pretty irrelevant. None of it is the "school's money" and they'll never be careful with it...ever.

Yup, let it come from the local community. If the federal government wants to give away cash, let it go to the states. If more revenue is needed, add to the income tax.

The U.S. phone tax system is ludicrous imo.
--
Congress could mess up a one piece jigsaw puzzle.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
I certainly would welcome the fee being collected at the state level instead if it were used only for schools. Since it is also used for extending broadband into rural areas, collecting it at the federal level is more fair to states with lower populations where the telecom companies discriminate more.
If you think your public schools are making poor decisions then run for the local school board. That is what local government is all about. Perhaps you could also volunteer some cost saving measures in their network design.


skeechan
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reply to pandora
Taxes from top to bottom are ludicrous, nearly as ludicrous as the amount of money governments local to Federal spend.

pandora
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reply to CXM_Splicer
said by CXM_Splicer:

If you think your public schools are making poor decisions then run for the local school board. That is what local government is all about. Perhaps you could also volunteer some cost saving measures in their network design.

School boards have limited power, and I have been providing assistance at my local school for many years. Federal and state regulations are overwhelming.

Getting rid of a complex program, and having Congress allocate from tax revenues is simpler, and would likely reduce help reduce opportunity for fraud.
--
Congress could mess up a one piece jigsaw puzzle.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to skeechan
said by skeechan:

Taxes from top to bottom are ludicrous, nearly as ludicrous as the amount of money governments local to Federal spend.

Tell me how to opt-out of defense spending and I will sign up tomorrow


DataRiker
Premium
join:2002-05-19
00000

1 recommendation

said by CXM_Splicer:

said by skeechan:

Taxes from top to bottom are ludicrous, nearly as ludicrous as the amount of money governments local to Federal spend.

Tell me how to opt-out of defense spending and I will sign up tomorrow

The defense industry is an absolute cancerous plague that needs to be eradicated asap.

TuxRaiderPen

join:2009-09-19
reply to CXM_Splicer

Tell me how to opt out of education funding

said by CXM_Splicer:
Tell me how to opt-out of defense spending and I will sign up tomorrow
Tell me how to see that my money is spent on

Defense
Police
Ammunition
Guns

over

education
welfare

I am all for it!

Schools should be 100% non government activities.. 100%

YOU the parent have a rugrat, then YOU THE PARENT pay for the education of your RUGRAT. Period.

You have the right to have an education, yes... but only so long as you PAY FOR IT! Or Homeschool, either way..

I have the right NOT TO PAY FOR YOUR rugrat!

I have no problem with the local village/township/borough/city/county running a school district so long as those who attend it PAY FOR IT 100%.. 10,000 tax payers does not equal 10K school tax payers.. If I don't have rugrats then I don't need to pay for that! Your carnal activities have consequences, PAY UP!

No, don't bother with this or that study about how education keeps the deliquinets off the prison route, or better soceity etc.. HOGWASH!
--
1311393600 - Back to Black.....Black....Black....


skeechan
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reply to DataRiker

Re: Comcast business is $60 a month

No kidding. The defense budget in 2001 was something like $300B. Now it is well north of 2X that. The US accounts for more than 40% of global military spending. Same gluttony is true for just about every inch of government, local up to Federal.

All this talk of sequester...not a SINGLE DIME is being cut by the sequester. They talk of layoffs, it's all lies. The sequester simply lowers the rate of increase. There should be 0 increase. Just to be clear, the sequester still means more money in defense spending, just not as much as the military industrial complex wants. It's insane.

Outlaw baseline budgeting across the board. Every department, every year should have to 1, justify their very existence, 2, justify their budget request.


skeechan
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reply to TuxRaiderPen

Re: Tell me how to opt out of education funding

While I'm no fan of welfare, public education leads to economic growth. An educated public is a productive public, and the taxes paid by educated workers more than pay for the government investment in their education.

The key is compelling kids to learn...you don't move up in grade until you pass a standardized exam. If you are 15 and can't read...you are 18 and still in 3rd grade. Make grade inflation a crime. Outlaw the teacher unions so that teaching is a true meritocracy and the best teachers make the biggest money (they can bargain for pay and benefits but can be fired at will by the district). Poor performing teachers have to go through additional training or they are canned and replaced.

Here in California, there no shortage of teacher applicants, fully credentialed, but because of the teacher unions, districts can't can bad teachers and make room for new ones.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to TuxRaiderPen
Hahaha, you actually want an uneducated lower class with no welfare but with the right to own firearms? Do you have any clue what a society like that would look like? The economy that you profit from would turn to shit very quickly.

How about we make tax spending decisions open to the people? You direct your taxes to defense, I will direct mine to education.

CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:2
reply to skeechan
While I agree with you on the need for good teachers (and to get rid of bad ones), the problem goes much deeper than a simple 'it's the union's fault'.

Districts have a period where they get to decide if a teacher is 'good' or not. They can be fired before they are tenured if they really are no good. The problem is that districts don't make these decisions based on the quality of education... they make them on $$$. A 'bad' teacher is one that makes the most money or is about to retire with a big pension. THOSE are the 'bad' teachers the districts want to get rid of. If they had their way, there would be no experienced teachers at all since they could constantly hire new young teachers at minimum pay. That is why teachers stay on during their tenure period (unless they are major screw-ups) because the districts don't want to loose cheap bodies in the classroom; they couldn't care less about the quality of education they are giving.

True grade inflation should be criminal but standardized testing is not the way to accomplish that. When you tie teacher evaluations to the standardized tests grade inflation is exactly what you will get... along with teaching to the test and a watered-down education. There is definitely a need for independent evaluation of the student's learning but a standard test is an inefficient way to accomplish that.

Being 15 and unable to read is a very common problem actually... not because of bad teachers but because of immigration. An immigrant from Germany who can't speak a word of English is expected to pass the exact same standard tests as all the other kids in his/her grade level. What do you think happens when you tie that kid's grades to the teachers' evaluations?


SubscriberLi

@comcastbusiness.net
reply to pandora

Feds don't get all fees

The "Federal Subscriber Line Charge" is not a fee collected by the government. Your local phone company collects that fee and keeps it. Phone companies put in the word "Federal" to deceive customers into thinking that it's some kind of tax. The only Federal involvement is that the FCC sets the maximum a phone company can charge.
»www.fcc.gov/encyclopedia/faqs-telephone#slc

The 911 fee is a state fee. It seems to me most states put it in the treasury, and then spend it however they like, but I haven't researched it thoroughly.


Devicive

@comcastbusiness.net
reply to pandora

Re: Comcast business is $60 a month

Well, if you're interested in a particular school or district, you can display the 471; Block 2, Item 7e shows the number of devices connected to the Internet. For districts, the number is cumulative, so you won't be able to see numbers for individual schools in the district.

For example, Yeshiva Avir Yakov, mentioned in the post above, claims to have:
3500 students
95 rooms with phone service
65 connections to the Internet
25 classrooms with Internet access
40 computers or other devices with Internet access

Displaying the Form 471 is a little bit of hassle, but here are the steps:
1) Go to »www.sl.universalservice.org/Util···blic.asp
2) Put in the first word or two of the school or district's name, followed by the % symbol.
3) Find the school or district in the list that comes up, and copy the Entity Number for the district.
4) Go to »www.slforms.universalservice.org···eck.aspx
5) Paste in the Entity Number you copied in Step 3.
6) Select FY2012 for Funding Year. (You can select an earlier year if you want older data. Most districts have not)
7) Click the "Search" button
8) Click "Continue"
9) Copy the "Form 471 Application Number"
10) Go to »www.slforms.universalservice.org···rch.aspx
11) Paste in the application number you copied in Step 9.
12) Leave the Security Code Number box empty
13) Click the "Display" button.
14) Click the blue "Block 2&3" button at the top of the page.
15) You'll see the number of devices connected to the Internet under Item 7e