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Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4

Meeting Monday: Pay to Win, Pay to Play, Pay to Look Good

Recently, game companies have taken alternate routes to generate revenue for games.

Basic, buy the game and play (Diablo 3)
Buy the game and pay a monthly fee (WoW)
Download the game and pay to "win" (Star Wars: ToR)
Download the game, pay for cosmetic effects only (Path of Exile)

Which of these do you think is the most profitable? Which do you prefer? Do you think "pay to win" is a dishonest way to generate revenue?

Are real money auction houses something other games may institute?
--
"This thread has more subs than the actual game." Phantasee, in reference to SWTOR



Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
kudos:19

From a player's perspective, I value the way that League of Legends does their system. I'd like to say that Mech Warrior does the same, but they do a lot of things wrong.

League offers a lot of the same cosmetic updates, with some game boosting updates, but at no point can you purchase anything that gives you a competitive advantage that someone.

MWO blurs that line a little, but nothing that is of significance. Also, I think that MWO prices things way too much on the expensive side. League lets you buy things for a buck or two or upwards of 20-30 bucks. MWO has you spending up to 30-40$ just for a single mech. Dumb.
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have. -MLK



Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5

Path of Exile is the same way. It's damn expensive for certain cosmetic upgrades. Anywhere from 20-40 dollars for one skin if I remember correctly.

I like the GW2 system, with the 2 currency system, which I think gives players more options. You can farm gold and then convert your gold to gems for the online store.



Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4
reply to Savious

I think companies can make a lot more money off of the LoL model. I can imagine that people have spent more than $50-$60 on LoL, which is good for Riot.

Personally, I don’t have an issue with the “pay to win” model, as long as it is in the same vein as Diablo 3. I know, but hear me out first.

When you take the average person on this forum, no one has the time like when we were single, no kids and no job/working 30-40 hours a week. I cant log 50-60 hours a week in a video game like I used to, I am lucky if I get 15. There is no way I am going to be able to compete with players investing even twice as much time as I can, let alone 50-60 hours a week.

Enter Pay to Win. Kids are selling items for $10, I am buying them for $10. I can afford to do it, they can afford to eat now. Its like giving money to strippers to help pay for college. The system works perfectly.
--
"This thread has more subs than the actual game." Phantasee, in reference to SWTOR



Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5

League of Legends has the best model so far, give the game for free, get everybody addicted to it make them able to grind the champions with ingame currency and release really cool skins for RL cash.

So free....

Monthly fees are more commonly used on MMO's but I think GW2 set a good trend in that matter.
--
When on dangerous ground maneuver, when on deadly ground fight.



saillaw
Premium
join:2007-05-08
Dismay
kudos:2
reply to Savious

said by Savious:

Its like giving money to strippers to help pay for college. The system works perfectly.

That is signature worthy


Blockfire
Sarcasm is my native tongue

join:2010-02-11
Wichita, KS
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
reply to Savious

I think LoL does it best and agree with Arch that MWO is doing it kinda right. I think their premium stuff is correctly priced, I actually like their pricing better than LoL's but their mech Prices are rediculous. $37 for one mech? and if you want to use this mech to the best of it's capabilities, you have to buy (either through in-game currency or $$) two more of the same type of mech.

I have no problem's with buying mech's with cash, but I can delude myself into thinking I haven't spent as much if it were 10-20$$ at a time instead of 40. I think they would actually make more money this way. more smaller transactions, etc.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Savious

said by Savious:

Recently, game companies have taken alternate routes to generate revenue for games.

Basic, buy the game and pay to win, or else play to grind forever (Diablo 3)
Buy the game and pay a monthly fee (WoW)
Download the game and pay to "win" (Star Wars: ToR)
Download the game, pay for cosmetic effects only (Path of Exile)

Which of these do you think is the most profitable? Which do you prefer? Do you think "pay to win" is a dishonest way to generate revenue?

Are real money auction houses something other games may institute?

FTFY

There's also "pay to speed up unlocks" a la League of Legends and Mechwarrior, although the game-altering items (runes for LoL and mech components for MWO) can only be bought with in-game-earned currency.

Lastly, SWTOR isn't the right example for pay-to-win. It is a little harsher on the restrictions for free players, but it combines both WoW's subscription model and GW2's ingame store (minus the gold-to-gems conversion option). It's like a free WoW account without the level cap.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Savious

said by Savious:

I think companies can make a lot more money off of the LoL model. I can imagine that people have spent more than $50-$60 on LoL, which is good for Riot.

Make that $500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it. Why? Because you aren't forced to, and the illusion of freedom (or the temptation of perks) is a much more enticing game model than the forced subscription fee.

This is why companies want in on this model. Even Blizzard's $15/mo only makes $180 in the same time period.
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4

said by Krisnatharok:

said by Savious:

I think companies can make a lot more money off of the LoL model. I can imagine that people have spent more than $50-$60 on LoL, which is good for Riot.

Make that $500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it. Why? Because you aren't forced to, and the illusion of freedom (or the temptation of perks) is a much more enticing game model than the forced subscription fee.

This is why companies want in on this model. Even Blizzard's $15/mo only makes $180 in the same time period.

Depending, server, race, faction etc changes are also available.
--
"This thread has more subs than the actual game." Phantasee, in reference to SWTOR


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4
reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

said by Savious:

Recently, game companies have taken alternate routes to generate revenue for games.

Basic, buy the game and pay to win, or else play to grind forever (Diablo 3)
Buy the game and pay a monthly fee (WoW)
Download the game and pay to "win" (Star Wars: ToR)
Download the game, pay for cosmetic effects only (Path of Exile)

Which of these do you think is the most profitable? Which do you prefer? Do you think "pay to win" is a dishonest way to generate revenue?

Are real money auction houses something other games may institute?

FTFY

You'll have to dig deeper than that, Sergeant. Most games today are “grind forever” games. WoW, LoL, Path of Exile, probably MWO in some aspects. Are we not playing to reach some goal, some electronic notification that our time has been justified, via a picture or title or slight change to our digital appearance, unnoticed by the general populace, but we know. We know.
--
"This thread has more subs than the actual game." Phantasee, in reference to SWTOR


Dissembled

join:2008-01-23
Indianapolis, IN
reply to Krisnatharok

said by Krisnatharok:

$500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it.

Holy shit dude.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5

said by Dissembled:

said by Krisnatharok:

$500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it.

Holy shit dude.

Don't ask Tigerlord or myself. Please don't.
--
When on dangerous ground maneuver, when on deadly ground fight.


Dissembled

join:2008-01-23
Indianapolis, IN
reply to Savious

I don't think Pay-to-Win is dishonest. It's a choice and everyone has one whether they chose to play that way or not....of if they even play at all.



Dissembled

join:2008-01-23
Indianapolis, IN
reply to Jobbie

said by Jobbie:

said by Dissembled:

said by Krisnatharok:

$500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it.

Holy shit dude.

Don't ask Tigerlord or myself. Please don't.

It just amazes me, that's all. I get there's people out there doing this kind of thing, but....wow.


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4

At best, its ~$28 bucks a month, at worst its $50. That’s really not a lot if you get your spending around 30-50 hours a month on the game, your looking at $1 an hour of entertainment, max. I mean, I spend like $40 just going to a movie with my wife.

I guess it depends on your financial situation, but I wouldn’t feel bad if I was in Kris’s situation.

If you want to be surprised, look at my Magic Online expenses. This weekend I think I dropped around $150 on it in 2 days. Ive probably spent at least $5,000 on it since I started playing, too.
--
"This thread has more subs than the actual game." Phantasee, in reference to SWTOR



Blockfire
Sarcasm is my native tongue

join:2010-02-11
Wichita, KS
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
reply to Savious

i don't think my LoL expenses are as high as KrisN's but i haven't been playing as long either. I would bet we spent around the same $$/time though. I have no problem paying for stuff, i just don't like the subscription model where you wait 18 months from the latest content patch to the next expansion with nothing new in between. Riot/MWO/etc are always putting out new champs, tournaments, infrequent map additions/changes.



diablo1892
Plough, sew, water, harvest. Repeat.

join:2011-04-21
Friendly, WV
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
·HughesNet Satell..
reply to Dissembled

said by Dissembled:

said by Krisnatharok:

$500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it.

Holy shit dude.

wow thats 5 runs to the grocery store to get groceries (in an entire year) and this is excluding the phone/internet bill... how are you guys able to do this??

must be VERY expensive...
--
HT1000/ BeamID 32/ Power Max plan/ 4 pcs on a D-Link wired switch/ wireless D-Link router with password

Support only the gaming company's that matter the most, pay for something that actually is worth buying or has a good reason for how much it's worth.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to Blockfire

I actually like the Premium Account type on the games where you can pay a monthly fee, and get very nice bonus perks, and if you are really active you can get the best of it, only reserving the real cash for those limited edition goodies.
--
When on dangerous ground maneuver, when on deadly ground fight.



Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
reply to diablo1892

You will be surprised all the useless shit you buy with the money for those 5 runs to the grocery store in two and a half years. I normally setup a fixed gaming amount per month, lets say $25-$30 it just adds up over time.
--
When on dangerous ground maneuver, when on deadly ground fight.



Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4

1 recommendation

reply to diablo1892

said by diablo1892:

said by Dissembled:

said by Krisnatharok:

$500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it.

Holy shit dude.

wow thats 5 runs to the grocery store to get groceries (in an entire year) and this is excluding the phone/internet bill... how are you guys able to do this??

must be VERY expensive...

Kris makes money hand over fist. He and Jobbie have it all set up, Kris flies the plane down to Mexico, Jobbie meets him, loads the plane up, Kris flies back, makes some money, rinse, repeat.
--
"This thread has more subs than the actual game." Phantasee, in reference to SWTOR


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5

said by Savious:

Kris makes money hand over fist. He and Jobbie have it all set up, Kris flies the plane down to Mexico, Jobbie meets him, loads the plane up, Kris flies back, makes some money, rinse, repeat.

Well that too.
--
When on dangerous ground maneuver, when on deadly ground fight.


Blockfire
Sarcasm is my native tongue

join:2010-02-11
Wichita, KS
kudos:1
Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service

1 recommendation

reply to diablo1892

said by diablo1892:

said by Dissembled:

said by Krisnatharok:

$500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it.

Holy shit dude.

wow thats 5 runs to the grocery store to get groceries (in an entire year) and this is excluding the phone/internet bill... how are you guys able to do this??

must be VERY expensive...

how much do you spend going out on dates/movies/bars/hobbies?

I get a little irritated when i see comments like this, (not aimed at you directly) but I used to play softball like a maniac. I bought a new bat every year, gloves, cleats, snacks, gas, etc for this was easily a couple hundred dollars a month. It's not any different than anyone else's hobby, like golf, cars, MTG, pretty much anything anyone can be into that's not their job (unless your frickin lucky). On the whole, I would bet it's cheaper than most other hobbies.

At worse, Krisn averaged $50 a month (12 months) or $30 a month (18 months) on a hobby. to an established person, I don't believe this is anything to sneeze at.


Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to diablo1892

said by diablo1892:

said by Dissembled:

said by Krisnatharok:

$500-600, easily, over the 12-18 months I played it.

Holy shit dude.

wow thats 5 runs to the grocery store to get groceries (in an entire year) and this is excluding the phone/internet bill... how are you guys able to do this??

must be VERY expensive...

I spend in the neighborhood of $700.00+ a month for food alone for a family of four.

500-600 dollars on a video game over a year and a half period, is nothing in my opinion.


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4
reply to Blockfire

said by Blockfire:

At worse, Krisn averaged $50 a month (12 months) or $30 a month (18 months) on a hobby. to an established person, I don't believe this is anything to sneeze at.

I think you mean "its something to sneeze over."
--
"This thread has more subs than the actual game." Phantasee, in reference to SWTOR


Savious
Premium
join:2012-03-05
Belgrade, MT
kudos:4
reply to Ghastlyone

said by Ghastlyone:

I spend in the neighborhood of $700.00+ a month for food alone for a family of four.

500-600 dollars on a video game over a year and a half period, is nothing in my opinion.

Lay off the caviar, bro. That's insane.
--
"This thread has more subs than the actual game." Phantasee, in reference to SWTOR


diablo1892
Plough, sew, water, harvest. Repeat.

join:2011-04-21
Friendly, WV
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
·HughesNet Satell..
reply to Blockfire

said by Blockfire:

how much do you spend going out on dates/movies/bars/hobbies?

I get a little irritated when i see comments like this, (not aimed at you directly) but I used to play softball like a maniac. I bought a new bat every year, gloves, cleats, snacks, gas, etc for this was easily a couple hundred dollars a month. It's not any different than anyone else's hobby, like golf, cars, MTG, pretty much anything anyone can be into that's not their job (unless your frickin lucky). On the whole, I would bet it's cheaper than most other hobbies.

At worse, Krisn averaged $50 a month (12 months) or $30 a month (18 months) on a hobby. to an established person, I don't believe this is anything to sneeze at.

dates: don't have one, i don't spend any time loving up a woman, women are no good, trouble (no offense to any laddies that might be in here)

movies: there usually a sham, no good.. I get rented movies from the redbox and watch them. Much better, you don't get into fights with others, would'nt be so crowded, kids yelling or picking on you.

bars: don't go to any, not quite of age yet but if i were, i still would'nt cause of bar fights and i don't like being around unknown other people.

hobbies: I get my bicycle out of the building, get a fishing pole and put it on the back of my bike inside a crate i have installed on it and head out to the creek or river.. and of course, times when i just like to ride going fast.

I don't regularly spend nothing at all in fact but i will if i need to, yes i still live under mothers roof):
--
HT1000/ BeamID 32/ Power Max plan/ 4 pcs on a D-Link wired switch/ wireless D-Link router with password

Support only the gaming company's that matter the most, pay for something that actually is worth buying or has a good reason for how much it's worth.


Snakeoil
Ignore Button. The coward's feature.
Premium
join:2000-08-05
Mentor, OH
kudos:1
reply to Savious

I've been playing Defiance. You have to buy the game.

Then once in the game, there is of course a store.
In the store you can buy skill boosts, loot boosts, inventory slots, outfits, and a few other things.

But according to the makers of Defiance, most of those items are available in game. For example there are missions you can do that will give you a skill boost. Hence no need to pay for it.
There are outfits that are given as a reward, and the outfits have no impact on your stats.
Defiance will also have weekly updates, after the TV show airs. They are free updates [If I understood a post about them correctly]. During the year, they expect to have 5 paid DLC, as well. Again, you don't have to pay for the DLC if you don't want to. It's just that content is locked off to you.

Also farmville does this as well. It's free to play, but you can buy items to improve your farm.

IMO, if done right, the game company could make more money doing it that way, vs a monthly subscription.

Dungeons and Dragons online is another free to play, until you get to a certain point. Then you have to buy dungeons in order to continue on.

I play wow, and am happy they have game time cards, as I am a casual gamer. But I dislike paying a monthly fee, then having a store where I can purchase in game items for cash. You'd think that monthly fee would be enough.

Now paying to win, I'm kinda familiar with. I used to play a game called Kingdoms of Camelot. The top dogs were those that typically spent money in the game store for boosts, and better items. The game itself is free to play.

Paying for cosmetic effects is ok, because it has no overall impact on the game.
--
Is a person a failure for doing nothing? Or is he a failure for trying, and not succeeding at what he is attempting to do? What did you fail at today?.



Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to diablo1892

said by diablo1892:

dates: don't have one, i don't spend any time loving up a woman, women are no good, trouble (no offense to any laddies that might be in here)

You're a little young to be making declaratory statements like that. On the other hand, maybe not...
--
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


diablo1892
Plough, sew, water, harvest. Repeat.

join:2011-04-21
Friendly, WV
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
·HughesNet Satell..
reply to Ghastlyone

said by Ghastlyone:

I spend in the neighborhood of $700.00+ a month for food alone for a family of four.

500-600 dollars on a video game over a year and a half period, is nothing in my opinion.

You have to be working a wealthy job. Around here, its just low minimum pay wage, mean/greedy manager's, no bathroom breaks, no lunch breaks, no time at all for yourself.. and there's just a few of them in the area... the rest of the job's (the much better ones) are over 50 or more miles away.

My uncle is a mechanic, barely ever gets to come down to see his mom and the rest of the family, same goes with my mother.. both work back to back, 12 to 12, really hard work if you ask me, deserves some extra money for working 3 days and 2 nights in a row without any sleep at all.
--
HT1000/ BeamID 32/ Power Max plan/ 4 pcs on a D-Link wired switch/ wireless D-Link router with password

Support only the gaming company's that matter the most, pay for something that actually is worth buying or has a good reason for how much it's worth.