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dslhell
join:2000-01-14
Alameda, CA
|  comments/clarifications - MSN/Northpoint (long)
seeing as there have been several threads about MSN glite and quite a bit of confusion about the current adsl/glite offering from NorthPoint and MSN, a few points and possible clarifications ... i hope this is helpful.
the arescom 860 and 1000 are basically the same thing, you may also see some references to an 800 that imply it is a bridge/atur -- whilst arescom does have a bridge device, and like most soho dsl router/terminators it _can_ be set up to bridge only, by default it's a basic nat router. version/model numbers refer to firmware/vendor - ie: MSN is currently using the 860 on all new rollouts.
PPPoA/DHCP(actually IPCP) on the WAN interface and a typical NAT/DHCP LAN, with some restrictions (see below)
MSN has two basic service plans: single_user and multi_user
i don't know what pricing and support for multi_user is set for, but don't try to ask for it now - Tier 1 has enough problems with single_user troubleshooting and they don't have the ability to change the arescom config to multi_user at this time, even if they wanted to. give them a month or two to figure it out.
single_user is NAT/ usb or ethernet to a single dev (predictably) 192.168.1.0/30
(gw:192.168.1.1 usr:192.168.1.2 subnet .252,
altho it doesn't make much difference if you use 255.255.255.0...)
the setting to change to multi_user isn't _only_ done by changing the dhcp range, but it isn't all that hard.
setting on the local computer should be pretty simple, install the USB drivers, or use the existing ethernet (10baseT) and set yourself up as a DHCP client (no default GW needed) and set DNS locally to whatever MSN or NorthPoint sez. note: DNS information is passed down to the arescom via IPCP from Northpoint's network; so it's possible to set up a DHCP client without specifing either DNS or gateway information, and work just fine;)
DNS: host is whatever you want and domain should be set to something like msn.com don't worry about search order and wins is typically disabled.
\note: northpoint actually owns the dns at this point, so if msn support can't tell you what they are, call np -- just remember that np support is for msn themselves, and not directly responsible for dealing with end user problems. they frequently do, especially if you ask politely and have been getting the runaround, but don't be too suprised if you do get refered back to MSN tier 1 tech support.
setting your static ip to 192.168.1.2 will work fine, but trying to get the arescom to recognize more than one device isn't going to work unless it is set to multi_user.
remember, the arescom is a router (albeit a very simple and secured one that behaves like a bridge), but it's technically leased/rented to you by microsoft, and in typical fashion MSN doesn't want you playing around inside it. when they work out the preceedures, you will need to call them and have the router setup for multi_user -- and they will adjust the billing.
on a related note, if you need to set up port mapping, you will need MSN to remotely manage the arescom and set this up. don't even bother asking them this at the moment.;)
another particularily good way to set up port mapping (assuming you have admin password) is to point your browser at your local LAN gateway (192.168.1.1) which will start up a basic http arescom management session.
if someone tells you what the current WAN ip is, remember, it's dhcp on both ends on the horse, and the public ip will change.
passwords? sorry. 
the installer will often install (or just provide) the end users with an arescom CD -- and MSN support was under the impression that one needed to install this on the client machine to get the connection up.. sorry -- the software on the CD should include USB drivers, but otherwise contains management software. if you don't have the password, don't bother installing this.
see the local settings above for client configurations.
FIREWALLING? your best bet is to run a local software firewall at all times. the only provision for firewalling on the arescom is NAT. this seems to be a common and troubling misconception among several soho router companies; that NAT provides anything more than a basic level of security in today's internet enviroment. an addition (and somewhat incidental) level of security is that the WAN public ip is DHCP, and therefore subject to change... the range is pretty predictable and if someone is just port scanning for random targets, then it's a coin toss. it does make it a lot harder to target specific targets, though.
also see http://www.attrition.org/security/ and http://securityfocus.com/ for additional information.
generally you should call MSN for all LAN problems...
good things to check before calling for tech support?
1. what is the local assigned ip? from the command prompt c:> type ipconfig
you are looking for an ip range of 192.168.1.x
type ipconfig /release_all
-- ipconfig should now reflect 0.0.0.0s
type ipconfig /renew_all
-- now you should see a set of ip addr's again..
if you see something like 169.254.x.x or 0.0.0.0 it'll be an internal addr from the ethernet card, and simply means that the DHCP was unable to see an external server... in otherwords you are not connecting to the arescom, or something is misconfigured...
ipconfig ? will show you any possible switch/options if you forget.
2. if you can get a DHCP lease, and still can't browse, see if you can ping your gateway (192.168.1.1) from the dos prompt. if that is successful, then try to ping an external site like yahoo.com (ping yahoo.com)
-- if that fails, then try the numeric ip for yahoo.com (ping 216.115.108.245) FYI: msn.com is running ICMP filters, and will not traceroute or ping normally. yahoo.com tends to be pretty reliable test site, but use your own servers if you like. the closer to you the better.
if a numeric ip ping is successful, then verify the DNS settings. northpoint runs several dns servers that are distributed regionally. you can set your dns servers to a different region (if npnt or msn provides you with alternate addr) and it _will not_ make you slower generally... there is some misconception about this, but basically once you have looked up the dns for the first time, it will remain locally cached for a while. depends on local settings. not a big deal.
if a numeric ip ping fails, but you can ping your gateway (192.168.1.1) then see if you are synched to the DSLAM -- ie: the wan light on the arescom is solid green?
WAN light is flashing or blank? recycle the powersupply on the arescom and let it power down for a minute or so. try connecting to a different power outlet, or moving it away from any possible EMI/electrical interferers -- ie: the monitor, on top of the CPU, way from the microwave;)
when you reconnect the power, it may take up to 10 minutes to regain synch (fast_retrain, hah!) be patient.
still no synch? call MSN tech support and tell them that you 'cannot connect to the internet' and that 'you do not have line synch'
-- also indicate if you have been able to synch in the past, or if the connection has NEVER worked.
'cannot connect the the internet' is the magic phrase, but don't be surprised if they want to run you through some basic LAN troubleshooting -- they have a checklist, and it's MSN tech support after all.
also, tier one and two tech support is typically outsourced in this industry.. it doesn't mean that you are talking some tech flunky who has no connection to MSN, but if you vent and rant againt bill gates for 10 minutes -- it's probably falling on deaf ears, and won't get you better service.. in fact, altho' most tech support veterans will put up with _some_ venting, it's highly counter-productive and generally not a good idea.
lack of synch issues will require a trouble ticket to be opened up with the DLEC (in this case, typically NorthPoint), sometimes the ILEC (SBC, Verizion, AMT etc) and may require an IW (inside wiring) dispatch. be prepared to provide general availablity and access, if asked.
be patient, take notes, record names, numbers, times and ticket numbers. be polite but firm.
if you have synch, but are still unable to ping any external/public ip addr...
call MSN tech support and tell them that you 'cannot connect to the internet' and that 'you have line synch' but are unable connect to any website or ping external servers. again, indicate if you have been able to surf in the past, or if the connection has NEVER worked.
sometimes end users know that the install technician was able to surf, but was never able to get your local computer up on the internet... this generally points to a LAN configuration issue, not a network/northpoint problem.
MSN will have to verify if your arescom is connecting and being authenticated on the public network. for those of you familiar with dialup authentication -- ie: typing in your username and passwork, and waiting for the connection to complete? that's generally being handled by a RADIUS server -- Remote Access Dial In User Services if you were curious.. the same thing is happening here, over a PPPoA or point to point protocol over atm link
http://www.dslreports.com/information/kb/PPPoA
right now, MSN has to contact northpoint to verify this part of the network. they should have visibility on authentication soon;)
someone mentioned the linesharing support number for northpoint earlier... be aware that you will still need to call MSN support directly.
linesharing is often confused with adsl and adsl with linesharing... basically: adsl can be run over dedicated copper loop or lineshared over the existing ILEC voice pair running to your house.. all of pacbell/SBCIS's ADSL is lineshared, but the vast majority of covad and northpoint lines are dedicated copper. lineshare is much faster to provision, and cheaper to boot, but means that the transport provider (npnt, covad or rythmns usually) hands over some control, testing and acceptance to the ILEC.
linesharing requires that the DLEC/CLEC (data/competitive local exchange carrier) run to a ILEC (incumbent local x carrier - ie: your local telephone company) data/voice splitter in the CO (central office) and then be split out again at the prem/demarc -- your house, in other words.
Glite is splitterless ADSL and runs at a lower bandwidth, although there are glite cards that will handle ~3meg downstream if memory serves me correctly... usually, MSN customers are set up with a downstream of 1.5 meg and 128k on the upstream -- adsl is adaptive rate and will synch best effort.
MSN doesn't technically guarantee datarate -- and the minimum synch rate to the dslam is generally set to 64k... so you can conceivable synch at 56k modem speeds. -- they will usually regard 128k or thereabouts as a good baseline, with anything higher as gravy. for reference, 128/144k is IDSL/ISDN speed, and translates to an effective throughput of ~10-16k per second...
voice signals are transmitted over 0-4 kHz, ADSL utilizes 20kHz-1.1 MHz and higher... SDSL utililizes the entire lower frequency range and therefore is unable to coexist on the same loop with voice frequency, whereas ADSL is designed to start at a higher frequency and may be provisioned on either dedicated copper or the existing voice loop, hence linesharing -- assuming it is accepted as clean enough for data transmission (sometimes referred to as isdn capable or conditioned) and doesn't have bridgetaps, hi-cap disturbers, adverse inductance or other interferers on the loop.
for some additional information
»www.sunworld.com/unixinsideronli···y_p.html
»www.paradyne.com/library/index.html
»www.paradyne.com/sourcebook_offe···file.pdf
try not to lend too much credence to so-called line speed testing sites... they can be highly unpredictable, and can only provide you with a relative sense of throughput. a better test would be to traceroute from your machine out to a nearby, or well connected, server - and then run a continuous ping with varying packet sizes to the first hop, looking for any packet loss, or abnormally high ping times.
you can try a local ftp or try to download a large file from a reliable ftp server (try ftp.cisco.com?) and try to get a baseline.
then again, you can get some pretty good results from various tweeks available through sites
such as
»cable-dsl.home.att.net/ and http://www.speedguide.net/index.shtml
just don't expect to get any support or sympathy from tech support if you don't backup your registry, or get yourself into a bind. -- that's what usenet is for.... try comp.dcom.xdsl
ok, well, this has gotten a lot more involved than i was intending, so take it for what it's worth.. as always, information is only as good as the source;)
dslhell./29-Dec-00
minor edit./5-Mar-01
[text was edited by author 2001-03-05 19:55:25] | |
JYoung
G L 2814
join:2000-06-13
Sherman Oaks, CA
| Very good post, answers a lot of questions. Cute how MSN is locking down the whole thing.
I take it you have inside information.....
--
If you're wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts, then repeat to yourself "it's just a show, I should really just relax" | |
Anon | reply to dslhell
I have in writing that my soon to be installed MSN is 1.5/512. I called MSN and they verified all Northpoint service should be provosioned this way. BUT, I called them yesterday and they said it was a Radioshack Exclusive. I dunno, but I was told twice, first time without telling them what I thought, my up speed will be 512. I am 3000ft from the CO. My line was conditioned and approved at 6Mbits. So if they ever offer better service, I can get it. | |
dslhell
join:2000-01-14
Alameda, CA
| said by apknet:
I have in writing that my soon to be installed MSN is 1.5/512. ... I am 3000ft from the CO. My line was conditioned and approved at 6Mbits. ..
don't be suprised to get a 1.5 / 128 line. 512 is the exception, not the rule. technically msn is only selling 1.5/128 best effort - even though they may not always know it;)
also, remember, adsl is adaptive rate.
you can have a lousy 3kf loop that synchs @ 384000, and a 15kf run that gets a clean 1536000 connection.
having your loop conditioned and approved for 6meg indicates the loop is very clean and has plenty of margin, so you should be fine. the glite line cards are only provisioned up to 1536k, though.
/ac | |
C Stefan
join:2000-12-21
Lakewood, OH | Once again. I am 3000 ft from the CO. The line it is going in on is ok for 6mbit/(new info here)2mbit up. They also know if it isnt 512 or close to it, it is coming out as soon as it goes in. | |
Anon | reply to dslhell
Does anyone know how to share an MSN/DSL connection. Are there any routers that will work?
Thanks | |
creepndth
join:2000-12-21
San Francisco, CA
| you can share literally ANY router/bridge. In the very least, you can use one workstation as a 'gateway' with two NIC's in it. One leading to the router and the other to a hub/switch on your LAN.
Sygate and Wingate are two programs which will allow you to do this with minimal troubles.
Especially if you have an existing LAN in place, sharing a DSL connection is not difficult at all to set up.
Many routers allow you to use the router itself as a hub, bypassing the need for a proxy workstation. | |
danzig7
join:2000-12-25
Lewiston, ME
|  SYSGATE is a wonderful util, i remember back in the day using SYSGATE to do connection sharing for 4 pc's, and 1 dialup acct:) not the fastest thing in the world, but it was enuff to get your netfix
--
Leave the network monkey alone!! | |
Geeky7
join:2001-01-24
Lansing, MI
| reply to dslhell
I just ordered MSN DSL and this answers most every question I've had. I have a Linksys 4port Broadband Router and was wondering if this could be used to share the MSN DSL connection? It seems feasible, but I'd like to know for sure (so I can return it if I have to). | |
dslhell
join:2000-01-14
Alameda, CA | reply to dslhell
just to let you know I made some minor updates... | |
BrianJJJ
@northpoint.net
| reply to dslhell
The information that was posted by dslhell was Great. More information then my brain could compute though. I hoping to read it a couple of times and let it sinc in.
my Question to DSLHell is i am working with MSN-northpoint have the IP address that you specified 192.168.1.2 When i log onto to various sites to locate my Public IP it comes up as 64.234.14.XX or something similar. I am trying to setup my home computer with Pcanywhere host so i can Log onto it from work via Remote Pcanywhere. I'm not sure how to setup the host to wait on the corrrect IP. If possible. The Address it waits on it 192.168.1.2. Obviously i am not able to connect to that address. I have tried to ping the addrss 64.234.14.XX/ from another computer and am unable to.
Any suggestions how to acomplish my goal.
Thanks | |
toddster
join:2000-12-01
Columbus, OH
| the IP 198.168.1.2 is a local IP, i am on msn and that is my local IP too...the Ip you want to use is the 64.xx.x.x.x
number, you can find your IP using the line quality test here....it has a button to click to find your public IP addy, that is the one you should use.
was you computer off when you tried to ping from a remote computer? i tried yesterday to ping myself from work, and i couldn't, i think it was because my computer was off...not sure:)
someone else may be able to elaborate more as to the correct terminology and why, when, where etc...as this is just me speaking from personal experience;)
--
'Scuse me while i kiss the sky!' | |
Anon | reply to dslhell
Don't forget you guys on the MSN dsl have dynamic IP's which can change at any time! | |
dslhell
join:2000-01-14
Alameda, CA
| reply to BrianJJJ
brian.
the shortest answer i can give you at the moment (is stark contrast to the first post;) is nope.
theoretically it's possible, but trust me, you don't really want to go there.
the official answer you will get from MSN is that the dsl product is residential and therefore does not accomodate port mapping and remote access.
the two IPs you are seeing are the LAN (local) side of the router, and the publicly routable and assigned IP from NP/MSN - ie: the WAN or external side of that router.
i realize this may not help explain your question very well, so let me know if you need a more specific response, and I'll see what I can do.
DH. | |
Anon | reply to dslhell
You are exactly right about the residential part of your quote dslhell, just thought I would enforce that. | |
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