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PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

3 edits

PJL

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Actiontec WiFI Connection Interesting Experience w/Denon Receiver

I just tried to connect a new Denon VR-X2100W via WiFi to an Actiontec Rev I. The AVR won't connect complaining the password I enter is wrong. It isn't. So for grins I tried to connect to a Netgear WN3000RP extender that is also connected to the Actiontec and the AVR connected fine. (I use the same password on both but different SSIDs.) So I thought that was strange and fired up an Android app that I have that gives information on the type of wireless network an SSID is. The Actiontec is listed as [WPA-PSK-CCMP][WPA2-PSK-CCMP][ESS] and the Extender is [WPA-PSK-CCMP+TKIP][WPA2-PSK-CCMP-TKIP][ESS]. The Actiontec has version 4.21.18 (which I believe is the latest). So it would seem that the lack of TKIP is what is causing my AVR to get rejected for connection.

I'm foggy on what the difference is, and can't seek to see anything in the Actiontec configuration that would allow me to change the WiFi for TKIP. I'll contact Denon about the AVR issue, but thought I would ask here for some thoughts on what's going on and a possible workaround. Note that all of my other wireless devices are not having the issue with the Actiontec router. Thanks in advance...

P.S. the AVR is about 12 inches from the Actiontec. Could that (so close) be a contributing factor?
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

GreyWhyte

Member

Log into the Actiontec and go to Wireless Settings then Advanced Security Settings. Select WPA2. Beside Encryption Algorithm, use the drop down menu and select TKIP and AES then hit apply. Try to connect the receiver to the Actiontec again.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

said by GreyWhyte:

Log into the Actiontec and go to Wireless Settings then Advanced Security Settings. Select WPA2. Beside Encryption Algorithm, use the drop down menu and select TKIP and AES then hit apply. Try to connect the receiver to the Actiontec again.

The drop down doesn't include TKIP and AES. It only shows AES. Thoughts?
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

GreyWhyte

Member

"TKIP and AES" can only be chosen if you are using "Compatibility" or "Legacy" modes.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

Thanks. I was using Performance but will try Compatibility. -- I changed it and it works. Will "N" devices still connect via N?
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

1 edit

GreyWhyte

Member

yes.

I looked up the user manual for your receiver and it says it can support "AES" alone. Now that you've set the wifi to "Compatibility" mode, see if you can select just "AES" in the "encryption algorithm" settings. If I'm correct in my thinking, the receiver should still connect. I believe the issue is with the "N" only setup of "Performance" mode.
hubrisnxs
join:2009-12-30
Fountain Valley, CA

hubrisnxs to PJL

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to PJL
won't N devices connect much slower than the 130 and 300mbs while over tkip?
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

1 edit

GreyWhyte

Member

As hubrisnxs has pointed out, you should definitely get TKIP out of the equation if possible.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

said by GreyWhyte:

As hubrisnxs has pointed out, you should definitely get TKIP out of the equation if possible.

I did some more troubleshooting on this. I removed TKIP (AES only, still compatibility mode) and the receiver connected fine. So I went back to performance (802.11n-only mode) and it lost the WiFi connection and gives the same bad password error. I am now in contact with Denon on this. The first thing they wanted me to do was to reset the receiver, something I am currently refusing to do because it took many hours to customize the unit and that will all be wiped out. (This thing is really a computer after all.) The tech could not guarantee that a reset would fix the problem. So it's been passed to Tier-2 support.
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

1 edit

GreyWhyte

Member

said by PJL:

said by GreyWhyte:

As hubrisnxs has pointed out, you should definitely get TKIP out of the equation if possible.

I did some more troubleshooting on this. I removed TKIP (AES only, still compatibility mode) and the receiver connected fine. So I went back to performance (802.11n-only mode) and it lost the WiFi connection and gives the same bad password error. I am now in contact with Denon on this. The first thing they wanted me to do was to reset the receiver, something I am currently refusing to do because it took many hours to customize the unit and that will all be wiped out. (This thing is really a computer after all.) The tech could not guarantee that a reset would fix the problem. So it's been passed to Tier-2 support.

I'm glad you were able to connect without TKIP.

Here's the instruction manual (PDF), »assets.denon.com/Documen ··· lish.pdf, check out pg. 258. Does it support 802.11n? The manual doesn't specify. Maybe tech support will...
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

The manual says it is certifed by the WiFi Alliance. I found the actual certification document and it includes b, g and n. I did a master reset of the unit (I found how to backup the configuration to a PC, without Denon's help, sigh) and that did not solve the problem. I'm beginning to think the unit is defective.
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

1 edit

GreyWhyte

Member

said by PJL:

The manual says it is certifed by the WiFi Alliance. I found the actual certification document and it includes b, g and n. I did a master reset of the unit (I found how to backup the configuration to a PC, without Denon's help, sigh) and that did not solve the problem. I'm beginning to think the unit is defective.

Considering the feature set of the receiver, I would certainly hope that it is 802.11n capable.

Did you attempt to connect the receiver to the Netgear Extender with only AES encryption enabled? I'm wondering if the Actiontec in "Performance" mode and the Extender encryption set to AES only will result in the same issue as if you were directly connecting to the Actiontec.

Did you try connecting the receiver to the Actiontec with the Extender turned off?
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

2 edits

PJL

Member

I did try to connect to the Netgear Extender with AES only, and I'm now running the Netgear Extender in that mode. All devices (including the Denon) connect to it fine. I confirmed that the extender is [WPA2-PSK-CCMP][WPS][ESS] by looking at it using the WiFi Analyzer app on my Nook HD+ (Android KitKat).

I also tried connecting the Denon to the Actiontec with the extender off. It did not connect to the Actiontec.

I also did a factory reset of the Actiontec and restored the configuration from a file I had just saved. The Denon still does not connect. Here is the interesting thing. The WiFi Analyzer app shows the Actiontec as [WPA-PSK-CCMP][WPA2-PSK-CCMP][ESS]. The difference is the [WPA-PSK-CCMP]. The Actiontec Wireless Status screen show WPA2 enabled (not WPA also).

So what's going on here? Should WPA and WPA2 both be concurrently enabled? The router says they're not, but on the network they appear to be both on.

P.S. GrayWhyte, I REALLY appreciate your advice, information testing suggestions.
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

GreyWhyte

Member

Your wifi analyzer is correct. The Actiontec operates in WPA mixed mode by default. I learned something new, thank you!

One more test:

Leave the Actiontec in "Performance" mode, set the Extender for WPA mixed mode and AES only, connect the receiver to the Extender. I believe it will still connect but just to rule out that particular configuration.

It really puzzles me that the receiver connects in "Compatibility" mode but not "Performance". Could be a bug in the receivers software or it doesn't like the Actiontec.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

2 edits

PJL

Member

The Netgear extender had been in mixed mode (and the AVR connected fine) but I changed that to WPA2 only as part of my testing (and it still connects). How do I disable mixed mode on the Actiontec? Things are pointing at Actiontec as the issue. The AVR was just recently certified but the Actiont rev I was several years ago.

aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
Asus RT-AX89

aaronwt to GreyWhyte

Premium Member

to GreyWhyte
said by GreyWhyte:

Your wifi analyzer is correct. The Actiontec operates in WPA mixed mode by default. I learned something new, thank you!

One more test:

Leave the Actiontec in "Performance" mode, set the Extender for WPA mixed mode and AES only, connect the receiver to the Extender. I believe it will still connect but just to rule out that particular configuration.

It really puzzles me that the receiver connects in "Compatibility" mode but not "Performance". Could be a bug in the receivers software or it doesn't like the Actiontec.

The receiver is not going to be doing anything that needs a very fast data stream. So whether on "performance" or "compatibility" I doubt you would notice a difference with anything.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

said by aaronwt:

said by GreyWhyte:

Your wifi analyzer is correct. The Actiontec operates in WPA mixed mode by default. I learned something new, thank you!

One more test:

Leave the Actiontec in "Performance" mode, set the Extender for WPA mixed mode and AES only, connect the receiver to the Extender. I believe it will still connect but just to rule out that particular configuration.

It really puzzles me that the receiver connects in "Compatibility" mode but not "Performance". Could be a bug in the receivers software or it doesn't like the Actiontec.

The receiver is not going to be doing anything that needs a very fast data stream. So whether on "performance" or "compatibility" I doubt you would notice a difference with anything.

It is not the impact on the receiver. It is the impact on all the other devices I have on WiFi.
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

GreyWhyte to PJL

Member

to PJL
said by PJL:

The Netgear extender had been in mixed mode (and the AVR connected fine) but I changed that to WPA2 only as part of my testing (and it still connects). How do I disable mixed mode on the Actiontec? Things are pointing at Actiontec as the issue. The AVR was just recently certified but the Actiont rev I was several years ago.

I haven't found a page that disables mix mode. Maybe the Actiontec's implementation of WPA is designed to allow all WPA clients to connect. The preferred selection in the Actiontec becomes the default for clients that have both WPA and WPA2 capability.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

said by GreyWhyte:

I haven't found a page that disables mix mode. Maybe the Actiontec's implementation of WPA is designed to allow all WPA clients to connect. The preferred selection in the Actiontec becomes the default for clients that have both WPA and WPA2 capability.

I could not find it either. If anyone else knows, please chime in! It may be one of those hidden pages like the UPnP setting on the Rev I. Sigh...

This thread »[Northeast] FIOS Actiontec MI424WR-GEN3I Disable WPA1 Question doesn't make it look too promising to disable mixed mode...
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

GreyWhyte

Member

said by PJL:

said by GreyWhyte:

I haven't found a page that disables mix mode. Maybe the Actiontec's implementation of WPA is designed to allow all WPA clients to connect. The preferred selection in the Actiontec becomes the default for clients that have both WPA and WPA2 capability.

I could not find it either. If anyone else knows, please chime in! It may be one of those hidden pages like the UPnP setting on the Rev I. Sigh...

This thread »[Northeast] FIOS Actiontec MI424WR-GEN3I Disable WPA1 Question doesn't make it look too promising to disable mixed mode...

I sent you an IM that basically confirms what you said earlier. If you can get the new G1100, you'd have a MUCH improved gateway minus all this present hassle. At least one would hope...

aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA
Asus RT-AX89

1 edit

aaronwt to PJL

Premium Member

to PJL
said by PJL:

said by aaronwt:

said by GreyWhyte:

Your wifi analyzer is correct. The Actiontec operates in WPA mixed mode by default. I learned something new, thank you!

One more test:

Leave the Actiontec in "Performance" mode, set the Extender for WPA mixed mode and AES only, connect the receiver to the Extender. I believe it will still connect but just to rule out that particular configuration.

It really puzzles me that the receiver connects in "Compatibility" mode but not "Performance". Could be a bug in the receivers software or it doesn't like the Actiontec.

The receiver is not going to be doing anything that needs a very fast data stream. So whether on "performance" or "compatibility" I doubt you would notice a difference with anything.

It is not the impact on the receiver. It is the impact on all the other devices I have on WiFi.

Get another router instead of the Actiontec. My DLink and ASus routers I've used over the last ten years can run circles around the Actiontecs. With my current Asus router I can have it set for b, g, and N clients and it is able to keep them separate so that the b devices will not affect the speeds of the g or n devices.

Or just get another Access Point to setup your WiFi network properly. Since a network with multiple wireless devices also needs multiple APs. I recently setup my fourth Acess Point since I keep adding wireless devices. Over half my devices now use wireless and I will hit eighty devices on my network sometime in December. Since I have several more devices on the way that will all use WiFi.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

aaronwt, thank you for the suggestions. There is likely some hidden screen that allows you to disable the Actiontec dual mode (as I mentioned before about UPnP) so I'm still hunting for that. Another access point is a possibility but it's unfortunate that only this one device is having difficulty connecting to a WPA/WPA2 mode **only** on the Actiontec. It connects fine in dual mode on the Netgear WAP. So I'm waiting for Denon to answer on Monday after the holiday weekend.
PJL

PJL to GreyWhyte

Member

to GreyWhyte
GreyWhyte, thank you for your efforts on this. Are we sure the G1100 doesn't have the same inability to disable WPA and run WPA2 only?

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
·Charter
Ubee EU2251
Ubiquiti UAP-IW-HD
Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-HD

Smith6612

MVM

said by PJL:

GreyWhyte, thank you for your efforts on this. Are we sure the G1100 doesn't have the same inability to disable WPA and run WPA2 only?

The G1100 is a Wireless AC router, and thus WPA2 is required for anything Wireless N and AC to function at full speed. It should have the ability to completely disable WPA.
GreyWhyte
join:2009-06-03
Laurel, MD

GreyWhyte to PJL

Member

to PJL
said by PJL:

GreyWhyte, thank you for your efforts on this. Are we sure the G1100 doesn't have the same inability to disable WPA and run WPA2 only?

WPA settings for the G1100 are as follows:

2.4GHz - WEP, WPA2, WPA2/WPA mixed mode
5.0GHz - WPA2, WPA2/WPA mixed mode

All modes function as they should.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

Just to update status: I opened a Verizon Direct thread on this. Support reproduced the behavior. It was elevated and I provided details, including screen shots. I'm to hear back within the week. I'm not optimistic. They said "...my actiontec tech advised me it's not possible to be on dual, either or on the fios rev i actiontec " but when I pointed out to them that their own support guy said this is what he say, he indicated he would elevate it saying I had given him the data to prove the issue and it will go to "developers/engineers/actiontec." (This discussion was done on a chat on a Verizon collaboration system apparently that is apparently used to escalate issues.)

Interestingly, the Verizon DSL router has the ability to set WPA, WPA2 or both. Just like my Netgear extender.

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

bluepoint to PJL

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to PJL
Sorry I'm a little late to the party. Let me ask, what is the denon receiver's wireless rating(b,g, or N)? I'm not sure what you meant by:

it's unfortunate that only this one device is having difficulty connecting to a WPA/WPA2 mode **only** on the Actiontec.

The REV. I let's you choose WEP, WPA or WPA2, I'm not sure what's your problem? But for security reason, WPA2 with AES encryption is the best to use. Is the Denon not able to connect to WPA2-AES the problem?
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

said by bluepoint:

Sorry I'm a little late to the party. Let me ask, what is the denon receiver's wireless rating(b,g, or N)? I'm not sure what you meant by:

it's unfortunate that only this one device is having difficulty connecting to a WPA/WPA2 mode **only** on the Actiontec.

The REV. I let's you choose WEP, WPA or WPA2, I'm not sure what's your problem? But for security reason, WPA2 with AES encryption is the best to use. Is the Denon not able to connect to WPA2-AES the problem?

The Denon is fully WiFi certified (in February 2014) for all modes and does connect to Netgear wirless extenders running WPA2 only (and it will connect when those extenders are using WPA/WPA2 or WPA only mode also). The thing is that the Rev. I does NOT let you choose WEP, WPA or WPA2. Even when choosing WPA2 it still broadcasts in WPA/WPA2 mode. Verizon has replicated the behavior and is trying to figure out what's going on and why you there is no configuration screen that allows actual setting of the mode.

On other routers, there is a way to clearly select WPA, WPA2 or WPA/WPA2 modes. This is not the case on the Actiontec Rev I even it looks like you are setting WPA or WPA2. It always broadcasts in WPA/WPA2 simultaneous mode. The Rev I was certified in July 2011. But that was likely the vanilla Actiontec, not the Verizon custom interface. I suspect there is a hidden configuration page somewhere that allows setting of the mode (WPA, WPA2 or concurrent WPA/WPA2) but it is hidden in the Verizon interface. This would not be a first -- the UPnP settings page is also a hidden page.

bluepoint
join:2001-03-24

2 edits

bluepoint

Member

After I've re-read all your posts, it looks like your problem is the denon can not connect to the Actiontec when the wireless is set to N(performance) mode, correct me if I'm wrong. Two things can cause these problems.
1. Your Denon's wireless is rated G.
2. and/or, if not the rating, the drivers are incompatible.

The certification will not be the problem since both are WIFI certified but the question is what is the hardware certified of. Is it b,g, or N certified. If your Denon is only G certified then that's the answer why when the Actiontec wireless is set in performance mode it doesn't connect to it.
How did you figure out the Actiontec wireless is using WPA/WPA2 at the same time? I have not tested but I think there were two different options for each. Have you used the freeware "inSSIDer" tool for windows? You can download it from majorgeeks if interested. Try it, it's a good tool to asses your wireless devices and you'll know for sure if the denon is b,g, or N and if it's using WPA2.
PJL
join:2008-07-24
Long Beach, CA

PJL

Member

Perhaps you or I missed some of the information in my prior posts, so I'll respond to each of your points.
1. The Denon is not "rated G" but b/g/n and is certified for these. (No high-end AVR with WiFi is not n these days.) Certification includes interoperability, so the "driver" you mention makes not sense to me.
2. The Denon will connect to Netgear extenders in "performance" (N) mode in WPA or WPA2 mode -- as would be expected from the N certification.
3. The Denon will also connect to Netgear extenders in "Performance" (N) mode in WPA/WPA2 dual mode -- as would be expected from the N certification.
4. The Actiontec is running in dual-mode WPA/WPA2 as confirmed by Verizon support and as viewed from Android devices that show the exact mode a router is running in. (I do not have a wireless PC. The Android OS itself provided this information. Most Android WiFi apps show all available WiFi networks and what modes they are broadcasting.) Further, connections (link rates) to the Netgear extenders in WPA2 mode show higher rates than to the Actiontec in its WPA/WPA2 mode, which is as consistent with the Actiontec being in dual mode due to the overhead of dual mode operation.
5. There are indeed two different options for WPA and WPA2, but setting to WPA2 causes the router to be in WPA/WPA2 dual mode, not WPA2 single mode.

So it is NOT a Denon issue. And I know for sure what it supports, as I do know for sure what mode (dual WPA/WPA2) the Actiontec is in. And, as I mentioned, this has been confirmed by Verizon support. So back to your early comment: The Actiontec lets you think you're selecting WPA or WPA2, but it's broadcasting in WPA/WPA2. (Try changing the WPA password and apply it. Then try to enable WPA2 and you'll see the same password. If you change it, the WPA password changes too.)