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LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

2 edits

LizzyB

Member

Is there anything with these line stats indicating unstable ping?

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I've dealt with this for what I feel like is far too long now, since it legit magically appeared one day and has not gone away since (which was almost 1 years ago)

Basically my ping is usually unstable in games; it never "sits" in place and always have a variation. So it could be 120, then shoot up to 170...etc. Spiking. An actual example, I was playing UT and my ping was at 110ms. However, throughout the match it fluctuated to any degree of 110ms-150ms practically every second. It does not settle/stabilize. (this problem was not here at one point ,i used to have a very nice and stable ping that had a variation of maybe 5ms).

So for the past year i've argued with CL about it; they always tell me the same thing "its because your area is bandwidth exhausted. Your area is permanently exhausted and the issue will not be fixed."

However...I was told the exhaust went into effect as of November 2013. When did my problem appear? July 2014. The period of time between Nov 2013 through July 2014 everything was *fine.* This contradicts there own words of "it wont get any worse." (Which is what I was told; however it has gotten worse).

The case was: July 4th,2014, a thunderstorm rolled in and knocked the internet out for my area. July 5th, internet came back up in the evening. Ever since then, my pings have been sporadic and poor.

Regarding the FEC errors: This was a long case that eventually resulted in "we dont know." I had multiple line techs that came out to my area and legit told me they have no idea what FEC errors are. They ran a new phone jack from the NID to the home. Nothing changed.

(I have plugged directly into the NID, nothing changes to my knowledge and CL's knowledge.)

So yeah,youll notice the millions of FEC errors. They seem to pop up if I restart the modem, and they explode in the millions, but they eventually stop over a period of like a week.

So, im curious if any of you can see a problem with my line, and if so, where I could possibly go to get something fixed (if anything).

Also, as a note, this is *always* here. it does not vanish at 2am in the morning ("non peak hours.") it is always like this.

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

3 edits

Atom90

Member

Somewhere between the DSLAM(local CL office) and your modem there is a major problem. As your stats show most the errors happening at your modem(near end) while the DSLAM is not getting much at all. This may be the root of the ping problem, with your modem constantly having to deal with these errors. On the plus side your SNR looks great considering your distance and sync rate.

*Assuming it is CL's phone line*
I would see if that modem could get out of multimode and switch it to G.MDT or even G.Lite. These two standards use lower frequencies and which helps on long phone lines, like the one you are on, and may help with errors. G.MDT maxes out at 8Mbit and G.Lite maxes out at 1.5Mbit sync, which would make you lose a small bit of DL speed.

I also have a long phone line which can make it more susceptible to the elements. And so through trial and error I have actually found that G.Lite is able to stand up to things like thunderstorms better than G.MDT. So take what you will from that. But I still use G.MDT because losing sync or getting errors are major problems I don't currently have.

At the distance and sync rate you are now, their is little use to use ADSL2+ and not sure why the DSLAM even allows it considering your plan. Switching to either may help a little or a lot, you just have to test it. Assuming your modem allows you to change it.

On a side note, you have my old 1760/288 sync rate. At least before they throttled me down to 1472/288, after I called them about a noise issue coming from their end of the phone line. Centurylink is a great company.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw to LizzyB

Member

to LizzyB
I think there's probably another issue:

Right now, my line syncs at 1536/896 which is only marginally better. What I've found is that if I'm doing something such as playing World of Warcraft and I turn on my iPad, my pings instantly go up as it checks for and downloads updates (an important task, but one that I have forgotten to ask it not to do automatically) and then as I start streaming music, my pings will go up further.

The more overall throughput you have, the less of a problem this is, but it's a huge problem with the slowest of ADSL connections.

About the errors: CRC errors are uncorrectable errors and when something comes up as a CRC error, the other side has to re-send it. (Your computer asks for the data again.) FEC stands for forward error correction and FECs were fixed by interleaving and "can" be ignored, even though it's not ideal to have them.
said by Atom90:

On a side note, you have my old 1760/288 sync rate. At least before they throttled me down to 1472/288, after I called them about a noise issue coming from their end of the phone line. Centurylink is a great company.

Just to mention this again -- Qwest, CenturyTel and Embarq are all still separate legal entities that are being held by and doing business as CenturyLink, and as such, have different practices. Some of which have changed to be more like the others since being acquired/renamed and some of which have changed to be less like the others.

In that time, the Qwest components have started over-provisioning where they never did before, and it sounds like the CenturyTel/Embarq areas have stopped that practice.

And, just to be technical about it, putting your line on a particular sync rate isn't the same as throttling. They have the same effect (another thing that has the same effect is congestion) but they imply some different things and are often different manners of solving problems.

A "throttle" or a software-imposed speed limit is often used in the case of, say, CenturyLink Prism or AT&T U-Verse, where the overall line will sync at a certain rate, your Internet speed is lower than that, and the overhead (the difference between a 32M profile and your 24M Internet speed on U-Verse) is used for TV streams and VOIP. In the CenturyLink world (really, most traditional ADSL/DSL providers that use PPPoE) the throttle would be set in the PPPoE/PPPoA/BRAS system.

Sync speed is of course the sync rate from the DSLAM to your house and may have been changed if you called in complaining about a low SNR. Setting the sync speed on the DSLAM might be something they did because your local DSLAM only has a certain amount of backhaul coming into it (an OC-1 or an optical T3, as a generous example.) Qwest won't sell anything over 1.5M on T1-fed remote DSLAMs because up to 48 1.5M customers will be sharing 12M of total throughput from eight T1s.

Congestion happens when you're Verizon and you won't increase your peering with transit carriers like Level3 and Cogent. The last mile carrier can still claim you're getting what they're selling you, but your pings and transfer rates to sites off-network might be very bad. Unfortunately, most last mile ISPs have their DSL help structures so far disconnected from the people who handle anything related to peering and transit that even if the DSL (or other consumer/small business connection) help team could find out what was going on, they're unlikely to be able to help.

Nothing about that is inherently going to increase your pings though, other than the fact that even a single computer checking for updates is going to overwhelm a line with such a low upload speed. It even happens if you're a Verizon or AT&T customer with 768k upload or in a Qwest area with 896k upload.

One of the biggest problems with DSL as a technology in general is even if CenturyLink and all its constituent components opened up the upload speed, you'd be getting like 20/2 at best and that's... not very good, when most streaming services these days are using TCP and require acknowledgement of every packet sent. (Which is the big thing that clogs up most DSL lines these days.)
said by Atom90:

I would see if that modem could get out of multimode and switch it to G.MDT or even G.Lite.

That might be neat to try, but my personal guess is either that the pair you're on is going bad, some moisture got into the system somewhere, or a bridge tap was added by mistake. This is a physical problem somewhere. G.DMT or G.Lite can sort of compensate for that a little bit, but I'd say that there is a problem with the physical plant that CL needs to fix.

Those SNRs are really nice though, so nice that I actually bet the OP is on the 1.5M plan for reasons other than distance. At almost 22dB downstream SNR, you'd be able to sync at 8000kbps ADSL/g.DMT, and about 20M on ADSL2+/VDSL2. Though, with as many errors as the OP is having higher speeds won't work well until CL fixes whatever physical problems the line is having. (Which may make the SNR better.)
said by LizzyB:

The case was: July 4th,2014, a thunderstorm rolled in and knocked the internet out for my area. July 5th, internet came back up in the evening. Ever since then, my pings have been sporadic and poor.

The good news is that the aspect of the connection CL told you wouldn't get worse hasn't, this is a different type of problem. This makes me even more inclined to believe that there is some kind of physical problem with the line, in addition to whatever's causing your latency, which could be an iPad checking for e-mail or an iPod streaming music.
cgreene
Premium Member
join:2003-12-14
Roanoke Rapids, NC

cgreene to LizzyB

Premium Member

to LizzyB
I would try some simple things if possible. Can you get Centurylink to put you on another pair? Maybe try another modem? Worth a try to me.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB to coryw

Member

to coryw
Thanks for the input everyone. Some things I will say:
said by coryw:

What I've found is that if I'm doing something such as playing World of Warcraft and I turn on my iPad, my pings instantly go up as it checks for and downloads updates (an important task, but one that I have forgotten to ask it not to do automatically) and then as I start streaming music, my pings will go up further.

All my of my bandwidth is dedicated to one computer; I have the pk zyxel 5001z or w/e its called, and it is only plugged into my desktop. The wireless is deactivated; no other devices are used at the same time as my gaming PC. (Just saying to rule out of the problem of other devices taking bandwidth).
said by Atom90:

Somewhere between the DSLAM(local CL office) and your modem there is a major problem. As your stats show most the errors

I *always* suspected this. I hate to be "that guy", but calling CL about it got me no where. I was forwarded to CHRONIC (their special investigation team)...and still got no where. The line techs checked for bridge taps, switched my pair, and gave me a new modem. Nothing fixed. (However, I will say that...well..they told me they did all those things). They also ran a new phone jack from the NID to the home.

From what I remember, they also put me on a neighbor's pair/line, because that neighbor had 0 errors. When associated with that line/etc, I still built errors.

(Does this mean the issue is the NID?)
said by Atom90:

At the distance and sync rate you are now, their is little use to use ADSL2+ and not sure why the DSLAM even allows it considering your plan.

What does this mean?
said by coryw:

Those SNRs are really nice though, so nice that I actually bet the OP is on the 1.5M plan for reasons other than distance. At almost 22dB downstream SNR, you'd be able to sync at 8000kbps ADSL/g.DMT, and about 20M on ADSL2+/VDSL2. Though, with as many errors as the OP is having higher speeds won't work well until CL fixes whatever physical problems the line is having. (Which may make the SNR better.)

I had a tech sync me to 3MB/s at one point with 0 problems whatsoever. He even told me to call a number about switching to it. However, they told me my area was bandwidth exhaust permanently and could not do it.
said by coryw:

The good news is that the aspect of the connection CL told you wouldn't get worse hasn't, this is a different type of problem. This makes me even more inclined to believe that there is some kind of physical problem with the line, in addition to whatever's causing your latency, which could be an iPad checking for e-mail or an iPod streaming music.

Just to reiterate, all of the bandwidth is going only to my gaming PC, which is hardwired to the modem. Wireless is disabled, no other devices connected to the modem.

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

4 edits

Atom90

Member

said by LizzyB:

What does this mean?

Well at the attenuation you are at now there would be little speed benefit to using ADSL2+, and you seem to be on the 1.5Mbit plan so G.MDT is more than enough. Also the fact that you said that the errors stop piling up after week of the modem being on is weird, and maybe your modem stops these higher frequencies as the erros build up. So using G.MDT or G.Lite would mitigate that by not allowing it to use those high frequencies in the first place.




I'm guess the blue is referring to G.MDT and the Red may be G.Lite.

similar graph
»upload.wikimedia.org/wik ··· tion.gif
said by LizzyB:

I *always* suspected this. I hate to be "that guy", but calling CL about it got me no where. I was forwarded to CHRONIC (their special investigation team)...and still got no where. The line techs checked for bridge taps, switched my pair, and gave me a new modem. Nothing fixed. (However, I will say that...well..they told me they did all those things). They also ran a new phone jack from the NID to the home.

From what I remember, they also put me on a neighbor's pair/line, because that neighbor had 0 errors. When associated with that line/etc, I still built errors.

(Does this mean the issue is the NID?)

If both your line and your neighbors 2nd pair are giving you errors then it probably isn't a bad line, but something else. Might be something really wrong with the DSLAM, might be EMF from your house messing with the modem or phone line. This is really weird.

Try keep AC-DC transformer bricks and wireless phones away from your modem and the phone line behind your wall.
said by coryw:

Those SNRs are really nice though, so nice that I actually bet the OP is on the 1.5M plan for reasons other than distance. At almost 22dB downstream SNR, you'd be able to sync at 8000kbps ADSL/g.DMT, and about 20M on ADSL2+/VDSL2. Though, with as many errors as the OP is having higher speeds won't work well until CL fixes whatever physical problems the line is having. (Which may make the SNR better.)

I truly doubt 20M on ADSL2+, even without the errors. As the higher frequencies can barely be used on such lengths of phone wire.
said by coryw:

Sync speed is of course the sync rate from the DSLAM to your house and may have been changed if you called in complaining about a low SNR. Setting the sync speed on the DSLAM might be something they did because your local DSLAM only has a certain amount of backhaul coming into it (an OC-1 or an optical T3, as a generous example.) Qwest won't sell anything over 1.5M on T1-fed remote DSLAMs because up to 48 1.5M customers will be sharing 12M of total throughput from eight T1s.

I called them about serious noise on the line. But even through the noise it was able to sync at 1760 for minutes before it would resync. I left the modem on all night and it eventually reynced all the way down to 300-500 but still could not manage that. After the noise was fixed 1760 never came back, not even for a moment.

Remember now, I'm not on a remote-DSLAM. I have the 54db attenuation to prove it. It's always 2001 in Embarq land.
said by coryw:

Just to mention this again -- Qwest, CenturyTel and Embarq are all still separate legal entities that are being held by and doing business as CenturyLink, and as such, have different practices. Some of which have changed to be more like the others since being acquired/renamed and some of which have changed to be less like the others.

In that time, the Qwest components have started over-provisioning where they never did before, and it sounds like the CenturyTel/Embarq areas have stopped that practice.

In short the one upside to Embarq, having DL speeds as advertised is gone. And the 1/3 upload speed of Qwest remains.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

said by Atom90:

I truly doubt 20M on ADSL2+, even without the errors. As the higher frequencies can barely be used on such lengths of phone wire.

The high SNR and (relatively) low attenuation are proof that the OP's loop is nowhere near as long as yours. Once the physical problems (which, yes, can randomly develop) are fixed, it would happily support at least a 15M sync rate. CL would probably qualify it for 20M and then renege once they found out how marginal that would be. You'd end up with only 6db of SNR if you tried to sync that loop at 20M.

But, that's academic at this point because the DSLAM or BRAS doesn't have enough capacity for OP to upgrade from 1.5m to 3M.
said by Atom90:

In short the one upside to Embarq, having DL speeds as advertised is gone. And the 1/3 upload speed of Qwest remains.

That advantage went to Qwest, which has long had better uploads, and when your line supports, will allow better. I'm moving to a location that'll support 40/20, 60/30 and 80/40 as tier options. That also doesn't help OP but it's neat to know.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB

Member

I went over to CL's website and decided to run the line diagnostic tool..which:

----
Test Result:
We've found an issue with the health of your internet service.
Error: Line unstable

TIP: Copy and paste the error into your chat session with the agent.
What does it mean?

Instability in your line affects the quality and consistency of your service. It can be caused by many different things. Most commonly, it happens when there's a problem with the physical equipment or wiring between your modem and the CenturyLink network connection to the internet (DSLAM). If the problem is outside of your home, then a technician will need to investigate the problem to pinpoint the location of the problem and fix it.
----

Is what it has said since this all started a year ago. This was the basis of my argument with CL, stating "How can you not find anything when your own tool is telling you what the problem is?" They eventually just told me that the bandwidth exhaustion is causing the "line unstable error" to pop up..which..honestly I don't believe.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

My guess is that the high number of errors is causing the "line unstable" error to pop up. Line stability is more about the physical condition of the line and exhaustion is more about the capacity of the cables feeding your DSLAM.

The ping instability could be caused by the exhaustion, but depending n exactly what CL means by "exhaustion" (they can sell all the ports on some of their DSLAMs and there still won't be congestion, even though there's no more service they can sell to new customers, for example)

To add to my previous comments about your line probably supporting a 20M sync rate: even if your modem could sync at 20M and would be stable, my guess what CL means by 'exhaustion' in this case is that there's no more bandwidth -- either for the existing customers or for new ones. One solution to this is to reduce the speed tiers they'll sell (eliminate a 10M tier in favor of a 5M and a 3M tier, or in this case eliminate 3 and 5 in favor of 1, Atom90 See Profile's problem with his sync rate may have been caused by this kind of situation as well) Another is of course to bring more backhaul to the DSLAM, but depending on what DSLAM it is, that may not be easy and they may need to install a new DSLAM, and depending on lots of things that may not be as easy as it sounds.

Also, even if you only have one computer hooked up -- if there's no rhyme or reason to the pings at all, there's still other things on your one PC that can cause problems, especially if you have a lot of game software checking for and downloading updates, etc.

That said, I'd probably work with CL on reducing the number of errors you get. With just 288kb download, literally anything you can do will help, and CRC errors will reduce your throughput and ping times because things will need to be retransmitted.

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

1 edit

Atom90 to coryw

Member

to coryw
said by coryw:

The high SNR and (relatively) low attenuation are proof that the OP's loop is nowhere near as long as yours. Once the physical problems (which, yes, can randomly develop) are fixed, it would happily support at least a 15M sync rate. CL would probably qualify it for 20M and then renege once they found out how marginal that would be. You'd end up with only 6db of SNR if you tried to sync that loop at 20M.

But, that's academic at this point because the DSLAM or BRAS doesn't have enough capacity for OP to upgrade from 1.5m to 3M.

Whatchu talkin bout willis?

OP has an attenuation of 44.5/25.3dB while I have 54.2/29.5dB. OP's line looks shorter by 500-1000 meters. Saying it is "nowhere near as long" is not true.

OP has an SNR of 21.8/37.7dB, I have 18.0/25.0dB.

OP has an output power of 16.4/12.9dBm, while I have 17.0/12.0 dBm

Quick estimate »www.speedguide.net/dsl_s ··· calc.php

said by coryw:

That advantage went to Qwest, which has long had better uploads, and when your line supports, will allow better. I'm moving to a location that'll support 40/20, 60/30 and 80/40 as tier options. That also doesn't help OP but it's neat to know.

My modem says it can currently sync at 776 upload if allowed by the DSLAM. And it tends to low ball estimates relative to attenuation and SNR charts that I've seen.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw

Member

It would appear I had internally switched the SNR and attenuation, and calculated loop distance (with that same tool you show a screenshot of) based on 23dB attenuation.

It's moderately funny (to me anyway) that the loop still ended up being shorter, even if not as much shorter than I'd suggested.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB

Member

Ended up writing them an escalated email; got a voice mail this morning confirming a tech was coming out and that my line would be down for "preliminary tests"

DSL line went down for about ~30minutes and then came back up. Everything is the same.

Got a voicemail about an hour later saying the tech was done,my line looked perfect, and if I have any problems to call Century Link.

Yet everything is the same..errors,ping,etc.

Dunno what to do.
gapmn
join:2013-11-10
Saint Paul, MN

gapmn

Member

Have you checked your power source for any noise and or fluctuations?
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB

Member

said by gapmn:

Have you checked your power source for any noise and or fluctuations?

Its plugged into a UPS. :|

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

2 edits

Atom90

Member

said by LizzyB:

Its plugged into a UPS. :|

Wow, you thought of everything. And you have tried with and without this UPS? Those things have built in inverters which convert the DC battery power back to AC, and there can be huge differences between cheap square wave inverters and expensive true sin wave inverters. But then again the modem's power brick should have a capacitor in it to stabilize the DC power sent to the modem.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB

Member

It should be sin wave; while it was expensive (heh), I needed a specific, high quality UPS to work with my monster power supply within my computer. Unfortunately I cannot try it without the UPS, however, it shouldn't matter because the UPS was here long (possibly 2+ years if I remember correctly) before the problem showed up.

Also, it is not plugged into the battery portion. (The ups has 2 sides, a battery side for backup when power goes out and a side for just protecting and connecting devices).

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

1 edit

Atom90 to LizzyB

Member

to LizzyB
Well figuring out why these errors are happening and getting rid of them should still be priority number one.

But assuming these errors never go away, my suggestion of using G.Lite still stands, or G.DMT if that works just as well. But G.Lite is probably the most rugged of them all. G.Lite will cause you to lose around 260kbit of sync but would be worth it if it is able to mitigate the error rate and your ping.

There is really no point in using ADSL2+ if you are in a permanently exhausted area with no foreseeable hope of going above 1.5Mbit. I wouldn't use ADSL2+ until the very day they gave me a sync rate that G.DMT couldn't deliver.

Be sure to check your own modem to see if it can change protocols, it says it's in multimode so I think it should be able to.

If you can't change the protocol then I would suggest getting the TP-Link(TD-8616). Over the years I have collected around 5 or 6 dsl modems that still work, each have their own strengths and weaknesses. But the only one that allows me to specify which standard I want to use is my cheap TP-Link(TD-8616). It works well for what it is, has few bells or whistles, but stands out by letting me pick between G.Lite/G.DMT/ADSL2+, which my local DSLAM abides to. Retails for $30 and works well on my Centurylink(former Embarq) line.

POTS=Plain old telephone service
ADSL2=G.DMT





The lower frequencies on any phone line tend to be the cleanest and tend to give the fewest errors. The higher you go the attenuation gets higher and is able to carry less information. Especially on such a long line like yours. As you get closer to the DSLAM you are able to use more and more of the higher frequencies on ADSL2+, giving you a max of almost 24Mbit.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB

Member

said by Atom90:

But assuming these errors never go away, my suggestion of using G.Lite still stands, or G.DMT if that works just as well. But G.Lite is probably the most rugged of them all. G.Lite will cause you to lose around 260kbit of sync but would be worth it if it is able to mitigate the error rate and your ping.

Thank you for your input. This is a field i'm not familiar in. I am free to change to various modes within the modem (pk5001z Zyxel) (also, the two modes you listed are selectable).

However, do you mind explaining what exactly they do in..well...simpler terms? (Also they don't cost anything to use those modes? Wont get any "hey whyd you change that" phone calls or charges from CL?)

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

1 edit

Atom90

Member

said by LizzyB:

However, do you mind explaining what exactly they do in..well...simpler terms? (Also they don't cost anything to use those modes? Wont get any "hey whyd you change that" phone calls or charges from CL?)

They don't cost anything more to use, they are just older protocols from the early days of DSL, protocols used to talk between your modem and the DSLAM. This is no different from you using an older modem that does not support ADSL2+. It would be shocking if Centurylink ever told you not use G.Lite or G.DMT as I have freely moved between them over the years without a problem.

In simpler terms, G.Lite only uses the lowest frequencies on your phone line which tend to be the cleanest and tends to handle minor noise better. As I said earlier that I find G.Lite able to ride out thunderstorms better than G.DMT, which creates lots of noise on a phone line. I'm assuming you can't hear much noise on your line, with a normal telephone, which would imply that the lower frequencies are fine and G.Lite should help your situation.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB

Member

Unfortunately it seems selecting G.MT or G.Lite resulted in the DSL light being a solid red; unable to sync despite trying to reboot with those modes selected as well.

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

Atom90

Member

Your dslam might not support this older protocol. That's disappointing.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB

Member

Anymore ideas? Shouldn't "near end" tell them something?

Brett C
join:2004-08-03
Olathe, KS

Brett C to Atom90

Member

to Atom90
said by Atom90:

Your dslam might not support this older protocol. That's disappointing.

I know with the DSLAM that was installed here to my northwest a few years ago has the "DSL profiles locked to your account", according to the tech at the time anyways. Not sure how much I'd believe that, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was an actual thing.

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

Atom90

Member

said by Brett C:

"DSL profiles locked to your account"

That is probably what is happening as I was under the assumption that just about every DSLAM would support G.Lite along with G.DMT. And by locking you into ADSL2+ they may be trying to avoid customers from calling support and complaining about their speed, due to using these slower protocols. I would understand that logic for people with plans above 8Mbit but for LizzyB this it's not helpful, along with anyone else on a long phone line.

I also found this post from a dslreports member, who was able to block noisy channels(tones) on his phone line, so that the modem only used the channels on the cleanest frequencies. But this is is not an easy way to deal with this problem and would be simpler just to change the protocol.
»[DSL] Altering ADSL Modem Tones to stabilzed bad line.

coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw to LizzyB

Member

to LizzyB
Near end errors originate from the DSLAM -- they are in "cells" (an ATM term, a cell doesn't necessarily correspond to a specific number of packets) that are transmitted from the DSLAM to your modem.

Far end errors originate on your modem -- they're in Cells that are moving from the modem to the DSLAM.

It is worth checking on whether or not anything has been moved in your house (iPad chargers, as mentioned in the thread Atom90 See Profile linked) but I think ultimately it'll end up being something on the line. A ground hum (do you have voice/phone service?) or a newly added bridge tap or even just regular wear and tear and aging on the outside plant can all contribute to errors like this.

Your line is also retraining, not super frequently, but in the originally posted screenshots, I see four retrains. Unless you specifically remember unplugging your phone line, this is a cause for concern.

If you've called and/or chatted for support and had people look at everything and say that this line is acceptable, it may be time to e-mail glen.post as well as talktous and just state the facts, things like:
- I live at this address
- I am seeing an unusually high and unstable ping time
- My DSL statistics are like this
- My area is experiencing exhaust and congestion
- The unstable ping time and these particular statistics are new since then, I think the loop from my home to the DSLAM or the central office is having an issue.
- What can be done to fix this?

In my experience, you'll get a call or e-mail pretty quickly from somebody saying something like "Glen Post, the CEO of CenturyLink asked me to contact you!" -- which is as cheesy as it sounds, but this person's whole job will be to fix the issue you outlined.

They will probably say something like "As you know, we can't fix the permanent exhaust" or "that's being worked on separately" (in my case, it's that my DSLAM is fed only by copper T1s) but they were definitely able to fix the local copper loop and I now have (on average) 90-day PPPoE sessions, limited only by my modem, really. (Once in a while if I really heavily use the wireless on my particular modem, it'll reboot, but that's not super common as I use Ethernet for most things.) (My line is actually probably good enough for fastpath now, but really, those T1 fed DSLAMs are going to hold me back and so I am not even going to bother.)

Just to clarify, although switching to G.DMT and/or g.Lite per Atom90 See Profile's suggestion may mitigate your problem, but it won't make it go away, I don't think you should need to do this, and if your problem is anything like mine, it'll get worse over time.

In addition, the DSL stats may not be the only thing causing your ping instability. The very definition of exhausted bandwidth is that there's a link somewhere in the chain that just can't let all the packets get through, and that will definitely cause unstable ping if, say, while you're playing and your pings are stable at 120, somebody else on the same DSLAM fires up Netflix, suddenly more of that pipe is being used and the likelihood that some data will get dropped because there's not enough throughput for all of it goes up.

So, although you have some investigation to do with CL about conditioning your line (or being put on a new pair, etc) there's also the whole bandwidth/throughput exhaust issue that's definitely not helping.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

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LizzyB

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Thanks for the continued support. These are my stats after resetting the modem ~a day ago. As you can see, my sync speed basically never changes. It's always 1.7/0.287 or extremely close to it. I don't have any problems syncing. Youll also notice that the errors are less, as they have slowed down, however, they are still accumulating at ~30 every 2 seconds.

Do you recommend contacting the CEO over TalkToUs? (I didn't even know contacting the CEO was a thing). Since they "don't sell" DSL in this area, im kind of nervous ill just get "we can't help that area."

I'd also reiterate that while bandwidth exhaustion is a factor, i have a unique schedule that lets me end up on my computer at various times. ive been on at 3-5a.m...and its exactly the same as any other time.

Atom90
join:2014-12-05

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Atom90 to coryw

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to coryw
said by coryw:

Just to clarify, although switching to G.DMT and/or g.Lite per Atom90 See Profile's suggestion may mitigate your problem, but it won't make it go away, I don't think you should need to do this, and if your problem is anything like mine, it'll get worse over time.

Certainly won't help any ping issues caused by bandwidth exhaustion, but should help with high pings due to error rates that needs data to be requested again. By forcing the modem to the cleanest part of the line.
said by LizzyB:

I'd also reiterate that while bandwidth exhaustion is a factor, i have a unique schedule that lets me end up on my computer at various times. ive been on at 3-5a.m...and its exactly the same as any other time.

Then bandwidth exhaustion probably is not a major factor in your case. As 3am-7am is probably the least demanding time of day for a DSLAM.
said by coryw:

Far end errors originate on your modem -- they're in Cells that are moving from the modem to the DSLAM.

Thanks for clearing that up, I've never seen "Near end-Far end" on any of my modems so I was a bit off in my understanding of it. Now that I see that Far End is just the data sent from the modem to the DSLAM, which has fairly low FEC errors compared to the insane Near End side, it just reinforces my thinking of the lower frequencies being unaffected. As the lowest frequiencies tend to be used for upload. But I have no way of knowing as all we don't know which profile is being used, nor can we see which tones are being loaded.

114,075,675 - 453 FEC errors during the same time periods is very disturbing. Especially if using LizzyB's neighbor's 2nd pair did not help, nor connecting to the outside NID. With the LizzB's newest post it shows 315,103 - 306 FEC errors and is still extreme.

I currently use G.DMT on a very long, cleanish line with 480 CRC errors (near end I guess) over the past 4 days. The includes a few days of storms, which was the source of most of these errors.

-----

All been looking around and found this from an ISP.

Try an ADSL1 connection mode

ADSL2+ varies the amount of power it uses depending on your line conditions. Unfortunately, it does this imperfectly - particularly in the 4-6 megabit speed realm, where it sometimes doesn't use enough power for the signal to be heard over line noise.

If your ADSL2+ speed is between 4-6 megabits per second, you may achieve higher speeds (and a more stable connection) by switching to an ADSL1 mode. This works because ADSL1 (unlike ADSL2+) uses a fixed amount of power - regardless of your line conditions.

Try locking your modem into ADSL1 mode (G.DMT) through the modem interface, or set an ADSL1 mode in the Internode profile changer.

ADSL1 Profiles and long distances

If your home or office is a long distance from your telephone exchange, or if your connection speed is less than 8 Megabits per second, it may be worth trying an ADSL1 line profile:

In rare situations, Internode may 'lock' your ADSL service to a particular profile for troubleshooting purposes. In this case you will not be able to change your ADSL profile online.

»www.internode.on.net/sup ··· rofiles/
»www.internode.on.net/sup ··· _adsl2_/
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw to LizzyB

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Yeah, the CEO is an option. It's what I'd call a last-ditch effort, something you do after contacting regular support and TalkToUs a few times each, and having a few different technicians out.

Ideally you'd keep pretty good logs of what's going on with your modem and what you experience at different times when you're using the service, and what the various techs say and what happens when they do their work, etc.

That rate of FECs is "better" but it's still not ideal. I see you're way down on CRCs though and those are the more significant evil.

Not sure if you've mentioned it, I only have the one most recent post loaded right now, what are you using to show/display the ping? Is it a specific game or is it just different speedtest results?

Do you have different games from different companies to test?

It may end up being related to the frequently cited throughput exhaust and/or to oft cited peering issues.

Completely resolving any issues with your local loop (your house to the DSLAM) eliminates that that's part of the problem. After that, it could be from the DSLAM to the BRAS (PPPoE or DHCP server) or from the BRAS to the big point of presence or in the peering.
LizzyB
join:2015-03-16
Nathalie, VA

LizzyB

Member

I play various games(servers across the country; both in east coast and also TX), yeah, and they all have large ping fluctuations and lag spikes...even if im playing at 3a.m. The latency doesnt get better based on the time of day.
coryw
join:2013-12-22
Flagstaff, AZ

coryw to Atom90

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It would be worth trying g.dmt, but CL LizzyB See Profile should still pursue having the line fixed. What if CL lays new fiber to that DSLAM and they can get on a 3M or 5M tier? What if VDSL3 or ADSL2++ or ADSL4 appears out of nowhere, making "long loop length" slightly less relevant?

of course, what both ADSL2+ and VDSL2 should do is automatically pick the best tones, you can see this in UVRT screenshots posted on the U-Verse forum, so it's interesting that this isn't happening here, or something else is causing the FECs.

About FECs: FEC stands for Forward Error Corrected. What it basically means is "This would have been a failure if you were on fastpath, but interleaving and other error correcting techniques corrected it and it was delivered on time."

CRC stands for cyclical redundancy check and is an ATM cell and/or a packet or group of packets that had to be re-transmitted from the source on the Internet.

For that reason, I unfortunately kind of doubt that the FECs are causing the slowdowns. They're alarming, but this equipment is designed to handle that many or more.

What would be interesting to know (my apologies if it's already been said) would be if the FECs showed up with the erratic pings (which, might not be possible to know because many people don't actually check their modem on a regular basis.) If they did, then they're probably related, but I'm guessing that (which is exactly what my behavior was) LizzyB See Profile didn't check their modem until after pings got erratic, and noticed a high number of errors.

At this point it's sort of a matter of how the OP wants to proceed. On one hand, you could really just ignore it until the cableco builds out, or you could pursue the "check with CL about local throughput exhaust and possible peering issues" side of things, or you could pursue the local loop that much longer.

Each strategy has its pros and cons.

For example, by doggedly pursuing the local loop issue until your line is totally perfect, even if it means CenturyLink has to trench your neighborhood and install totally new lines, you'll be completely sure that that part of the overall system isn't the problem when it turns out that bandwidth exhaust does mean higher and potentially erratic pings.

On the other hand, if you pursue the peering and throughput/bandwidth exhaust issue first, you might find that's where it is and essentially get your vote in that the company fix that issue, but if they upgrade your area and you can get, say, ten megs with VDSL2 bonding, or something, then you're going to have a bad time as VDSL2's expanded frequencies and tighter tolerances have a rough time on your noisy lines with whatever issues they have that are causing your FECs.

On the third hand, you could simply go "Oh well CenturyLink just doesn't care" and hop onto a cableco's network with its overloaded node. The only difference I that CL eventually runs out of DSLAM ports. A Cableco can add in as many taps and amplifiers within a node as their heart desires. (This doesn't stop some cablecos from actually being better, but it's extremely dependent on your local area. I'm actually interested in hearing about [user=Brad152's adventures with Cox Cable in Phoenix.)