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Wildcatboy
Invisible
Premium,Mod
join:2000-10-30
Toronto, ON
kudos:3

14 recommendations

Forum rules, reminder, changes, updates, ...

I think a lot of you old timers would agree that this forum has somehow degenerated. Partly due to the fact that we were trying to test a gentler and more forgiving approach to moderation to see how it works and how far can people go in self moderating.

Well, that approach has to a certain degree failed in my view. I'm a true believer in self moderation but one that is given a constant direction by moderators as what's expected from the members.

You see, self moderation is great so long as the people who are doing it, share the same expectations as the host of the forum and the site as how the forum should look like. If they don't, they'll still self moderate but in a forum that will no longer look like anything it was originally intended to look like. A Newsgroup is self moderated too in a sense that if you don't flame you can't survive. Well, my idea of this forum is that you shouldn't be able to survive if you flame.

I think I speak for the vast majority of you when I say that I'd like this forum to be the first stop for anyone who needs to see intelligent security related discussions. The first place you go when you need help and guidance without having to go through a bunch of irrelevant material. A place you can count on to be welcoming and right to the point. Most importantly a place that's mature enough to impress other Security experts (known or unknown) enough to feel welcome to join this crowd and make it a better place.

As I have mentioned this before to a few, there are three kinds of Security forums out there on the Internet.

  • A) Script kiddy forums where majority of you home users will find nothing of use there and you don't have the slightest chance to find help.


  • B) Professional Forums that are frequented by known and unknown Security experts having mature discussions and


  • C) Forums that are trying hard to be professional and failing miserably.

I refuse to allow this forum to fall into the A and C category and I don't think any of you want that either. Unfortunately, by the way things are going, we are certainly in danger of falling into the C category .

So here's some guidelines as how this forum should and will certainly look like from now on:

  • This is the Security forum. Security discussions, privacy discussions, Technical security issues,... have a place here.


  • Chit chats, posting cartoons, jokes, one on one discussions, funny articles, Script kiddy talks, bragging about your hacking adventures... DO NOT.


  • If a thread sparks a different question in your mind that isn't 100% related to the main topic, start a new thread and ask. Off topic remarks will not be tolerated no matter how intelligent they may sound. If your post starts with "This may be a bit OT but...", you can bet you'll be hearing from me.


  • Any attempt to start a flame war, any trolling to get others to start a flame war no matter how subtle, any kind of disrespect to other members no matter how minor, any attempt to change the subject and direction of the thread to what it's not originally intended (especially if the new direction is not Security related) will be dealt with harshly. No warnings. This forum is not here for your amusement.


  • Posts like, I love this product or I hate that product offer no value to this forum and mostly end up in flame wars. If you are introducing a new product, that's fine, otherwise avoid those posts. This forum is here to help you solve your problems or inform others of vulnerabilities. How you feel about a product does not warrant a thread.


  • Duplicate threads are frowned upon. Do your research before posting. If you have done your research and still don't have the answer, let us know that and help avoid people quoting old threads back at you. Let us know exactly what it is that you haven't found in those old threads and what exactly you are looking for.


  • You don't have to post in every thread you see. If you can't be helpful, stay out and let others help.


  • Do not post lengthy cut and paste articles in the middle of a thread. Post a link and tell people what exactly they can expect when they click on it. If people are interested in your answer, trust me, they'll click on it. Don't leave a link without telling people what it is. If they remotely need to be warned about a link you post, warn them in advance.


  • If someone asks about Sygate, tell them about Sygate. ZA can have its own thread. If people have specific questions about TDS, don't tell them how great your TH is. If people ask how they can configure their firewall don't tell them to go and buy a router and most certainly don't tell them that in your opinion the best firewall is ... They don't care about what your opinion is. They have already told you what they are looking for. In other words, stay on topic unless the original poster requests further information.


  • If you don't like a subject, if a poster or a subject gets on your nerve, stay out. Don't trash the thread and don't attempt to act as the moderator of this forum. There's only one. Bring it to my attention if necessary and I will decide.

Don't forget, this is not a social club. DSLR as a whole might be a big family for a lot of us, but this particular forum is supposed to be a professional association. Act professionally in this forum and do your socializing in our social forums. It's fine and even encouraged to be friends with your colleagues but once the business is in session, talk business.

My new policy which thankfully to all of you will only affect less than 1% of you:

  • If editing a very short unsuitable remark out of an otherwise great lengthy post takes more time that I'm willing to spend, I'll hit delete. Choose your words wisely.


  • If I have to delete your posts more than a few times a month, I'll make sure you won't post in this forum at all.


  • IF your post is deleted, don't post publicly about it or add a subtle hint to it in your next post, because I will have to delete that as well. If you want to know what happens if I have to delete your posts more than a few times, see above.


  • Polite IMs about why your post was deleted may be answered, otherwise, don't bother. I get enough of those unprofessional IMs and I'm not even getting paid.


If you want to see this forum to get back to what it was originally intended, help me by bringing unsuitable posts to my attention. Hit that Hey Mod link as often as you find necessary. You may not see an immediate response but I guarantee you that I see every single one and I guarantee that you'll get a response from me via IM even if it's the next day.

Make sure you click on the posting rules link on top of the forum and read it. Those rules are still in effect. Some of you may have not read them at all and some may have forgotten it altogether.

Please help make this forum a professional one. You will all benefit as a result. If you expect professional security people to count on this forum enough to come over and help or answer your questions, you need to act professionally first and you need to prove to them that this forum is worthy of their time.

In the end I'd like to thank most of you who have done your parts already and have made this forum a great place as is. We can be better and we will. Have patience and keep up the good work.

Cheers.
--
You can catch the Devil, but you can't hold him long.


Jamming777$
Time Is Running Out
Premium
join:2001-07-25
USA
Thanks for being there Wildcatboy, and I have been kind of staying out of the forum for some of the reasons you have talked about. I appreciate your direction and will do my best to conform to your updated rules. Again, Thanks for taking the time to moderate this forum, it is a better forum for it. This ain't butt kissing, this is really how I feel, even though your wrong about some of your opinions on products I support.
--
Jamming *Team Z Member*


Randy Bell
Premium
join:2002-02-24
Santa Clara, CA
reply to Wildcatboy
I support WCB wholeheartedly, and I think he's doing a swell job. His job isn't easy, since this is such a large forum with such wide diversity of opinion...but there's room for everyone here, LOL.

I too appreciate WCB's leadership and wish to abide by the rules if possible. I mean, I may slip up from time to time, but it is my intention to be a rule-keeper. :)


tke711
Premium
join:2001-03-31
Everywhere
reply to Wildcatboy
I think what you layed out WCB is fair and reasonable.

Thank you!

tke711
--
Go Pack!


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7

1 recommendation

reply to Wildcatboy
It will be a pleasure to get back to helping people who really want it.


danawhitaker
Space...The Final Frontier
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Urbandale, IA

1 recommendation

reply to Wildcatboy
There's only one statement that I disagree with:

**In other words, stay on topic unless the original poster requests further information.**

In my experience, sometimes I come to DSLR with the intentions of looking at one product or another, and am informed by people in the thread I post to that the product is not, in fact, what I need. I personally find that a beneficial service, which has in the past saved me not only time, but money as well. I simply don't know to request further information...well, because I don't. If it's something I need to ask for help about, I'm probably going off the rec of a friend, and a more experienced person's opinion is always valued. I do believe that when people post they should *address* what the user asked a question about, but I guess I don't see a problem with throwing one's own opinion (as long as it is an *informed* one) onto the pile as well. Perhaps I'm rare in that I've benefited from such things. In which case I won't say another word on the subject...

Sammie
--
Quo Vadimus


jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Wildcatboy
WCB,

I suspect that, to some extent, we have become victims of our own success. Also, we've been experiencing a lot of "good weather".

With regards to the first point, we have done such a good job that many people now come here or get referred here from other forums and newsgroups. (Well, I'm certainly reading a lot of new names.) People come with the baggage of their prior experiences. At least I know I did. Indeed, I shall never forget my first post (a reply in an ongoing thread) here! I remember being told firmly but politely that "That's not the way we do things here." (And, of course, the more I read, the more I realized that was true.) But that wasn't my initial reaction. At first, I thought "Oh, yeah, right ... , kinder, gentler world ... sure!") Let's try the old switcheroo: "Sorry guys, I was having a bad hair day, my wife just left me, and the dog ate my homework". Okay, now let's see how kind and gentle the place is. And, to my utter astonishment, the responses came back: "No big deal, anyone can have a bad day. Welcome aboard. And incidentally, you did have an interesting point in your initial reply, but ...." And, so I learned, it really was a kinder, gentler world here at DSLR.

And I remember the many early times I tried to strike up the odd one-on-one social conversation within a thread (which mostly was just ignored). Indeed, when I first came here, I didn't even know that there were other forums here, I hadn't read the posting rules, and what the heck is IM anyway?

Now, with regards to the second point in my initial paragraph. We have, in all honesty, had a rather good summer -- very little in the way of catastrophic happenings. In many instances, I think the 'givers' come in, walk around, don't see any real crises. Some check a few threads because of who else has posted in them; maybe drop a witticism to let you know they're still hanging around and then head off on their merry way. Others just look, mostly don't see anything deserving of a response and just go back to doing what(ever) they do in the real world. So, yes, we are seeing a bit of social chitchat. We're seeing more socializing, witticisms, jokes, and cartoons than normal -- well, that's what happens when things get slow around the office, also.

But, if you look at the serious, substantive threads, I think you'll have to agree that all this gets dropped pretty quickly and people get back to business when this becomes critical.

Indeed, I suspect some of us are getting a bit uneasy these days. We keep thinking there's something new out there; we just haven't managed to localize it -- yet. So sometimes we (and I include myself in this) go off on wild goose chases and others can't help but make some sort of humorous comment about it.

Still, your post is a good reminder and it comes at a good time. No point in waiting until the whole place turns into a koffee klatch (or whatever that thing is).

Peace.
--
Regards, Joseph V. Morris


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7

reply to Wildcatboy
JV, I too find it interesting that this thread was left open for discussion...I really did not see it that way..I would have lock it.I am sure WCB thought long and hard to put it together.

PS...Love you guys, all of ya.

John
[text was edited by author 2002-09-10 10:49:27]


jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
kudos:1

1 recommendation

John,

I am assuming he left it open deliberately and that he was, in effect, inviting (but not explicitly soliciting) feedback and comments. Sort of an exercise in taking the pulse, as it were.
--
Regards, Joseph V. Morris


pvale
Lurk, Lurk, Lurk,They Call Me The Lurker

join:2000-03-29
Washington, MO
reply to Wildcatboy
From one of the lurkers;
I post very few posts in this forum, because I'm in learning mode. I learn a lot about privacy and security in this forum and have little to no new info to post. I do want to thank WCB and all the others who frequently post very good information here, and hope this forum keeps is same lofty standards.
--
Using ET photons (Solar Power) to search for ET.

fastez1

join:2001-12-26
Hephzibah, GA
reply to Wildcatboy
Clear,concise,understood.

Thanks Ed


bobd1950
Homer
Premium
join:2002-03-17
Pine Brook, NJ
reply to Wildcatboy
WTG!........takem to the woodshed!


Vampirefo
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-11
Huntington, WV
kudos:1
reply to Wildcatboy
The best post I have read in a long time, Wildcatboy, you are simply the man!!!!!!!!!

Best Regards
Vampirefo
--
TrojanHunter Stands For Privacy!!!!!!!


jaykaykay
4 Ever Young
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-13
USA
kudos:24
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
reply to Wildcatboy
I hear you loud and clear, WCB. I also know that I am probably one of the worst offenders in that I take every chance that I can to throw in a bit of humor, even when it comes to security. I will attempt to curb my normal, impish ways and respect your wishes as the Mod of this forum. Please do me a favor though and realize that no matter how serious a subject may be, humor is a necessary part of life...even here.
--
JKKAge is a very high price to pay for my maturity. If I can't stay young, I can at least stay immature!


jfcjrus
Premium
join:2001-12-09
New England
reply to Wildcatboy
said by Wildcatboy:

[snip].... this forum has somehow degenerated. Partly due to the fact that we were trying to test a gentler and more forgiving approach to moderation to see how it works and how far can people go in self moderating.

Well, that approach has to a certain degree failed in my view....[/snip]
Thank you, sir. To me, a very timely post.

Several months ago, I found this forum and received unbelievable help and advice in helping me 'secure' my pc.

Lately, I've been reluctant to even post a question or reply due to the (and I exaggerate):
'Must we go thru this again? We covered that 2 months ago. Why are you bothering us, again, with this crap?'; attitude.
(Boy, that'll slow ya down).

In the last couple of months, this forum seems like a somewhat 'advanced security' forum. If you're not a 'professional' then stop wasting our time.

But, as you said, it's your forum.
You can set it at any level of support that you like.

Just an observation, from someone that's definitely not a guru.
Regards


Rocktagon
Slightly Bent
Premium
join:2000-11-04
Chattaroy, WA
reply to Wildcatboy
Very well done my friend. I have benefited from this forum immensely, one could go so far as to say it inspired a career change. Although I find it very difficult to take the time to post I know that when and if I do have any questions they will be answered quickly and the information helpful. For this reason I agree with your outline and all it stands for. Keeping this forum held to the highest standards will ensure it continues to be the dominant forum for information related to Security.

I for one greatly appreciate you stepping up to take a more proactive role in moderation. Good job
--
God bless America


Ryan
Premium
join:2001-03-03
Braintree, MA
reply to jfcjrus
said by jfcjrus:
Lately, I've been reluctant to even post a question or reply due to the (and I exaggerate):
'Must we go thru this again? We covered that 2 months ago. Why are you bothering us, again, with this crap?'; attitude.

I hear ya man. I dont want to get into detail, but i knowticed this withy other forums too. Instead of people posting one on one conversations they instead post disgusted remarks and maby if there nice enough links. I feel that you should really help the person 1 on 1 with questions and then maby aditionaly add a past link for even more reffrence.

Thanks for reposting the rules


La Luna
RIP Lisa
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3

3 recommendations

reply to Wildcatboy
While I agree in principle with all that WCB has said, I would like to offer the opinion that sometimes there IS a place for friendlyness, and yes, sometimes even humor. Those are the things that keep forums such as this from being INTIMIDATING, thus chasing new people away for fear of not knowing enough, or saying something "stupid".
Sure, there are annoyances and threads that shouldn't be, but isn't that part of internet forum life? All in all, I think this forum (all of them, for that matter) are EXCELLENT as they are--not too stuffy, or boring or filled with technical chatter that's above most people's heads. I LIKE coming here for the best security info around, combined with a comfortable, friendly environment. And as far as I am concerned, the Mods have been doing a great job keeping things on the straight and narrow. I honestly don't see that there is any major problem. Consider the fact that I am a woman, 53 and a grandma--if I saw any nonsense going on here that wasn't dealt with, I would be gone in a heartbeat.

WCB, while its fine to have some ground rules to live by, don't get TOO serious on us--we get enough of that in "real" life, don't we? Shouldn't all of this computer "stuff" (yes, even security) be fun? I know I wouldn't be here if it wasn't. THAT'S what keeps me coming back to learn more. If things get too technical, too dry, too boring, I'll lose interest.

Am I making any sense here? Not saying it should be all fun and games--just that there has to be a happy medium that would work for all.

Now, I think I will go print out the new rules and hang them by my computer for reference ...I'll NEVER remember all of them, lol.......
--
»www.sarahbrightman.co.uk »www.sarah-brightman.com/


jvmorris
I Am The Man Who Was Not There.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-03
Reston, VA
kudos:1
La Luna,

I am beginning to suspect some sort of feminist conspiracy here to protect us from becoming humorless. First jaykaykay, now you -- not to mention the persistent incoming e-mail from a certain lurker who's gleefully pointing out to me each such posting.

I don't think WCB is advocating a total lack of humor; just a reasonable amount of discretion and self-control. (Right, big guy?? ... Right??)

I mean, I've already been poking at Name Game and it seems I can still post!

I suppose I should now post a limerick, but I think that might try his patience beyond the breaking point!
--
Regards, Joseph V. Morris


Wildcatboy
Invisible
Premium,Mod
join:2000-10-30
Toronto, ON
kudos:3

6 recommendations

reply to Wildcatboy
This post was not meant to scare people off. It was meant to tell you where we stand today in my view and where we may end up if we are not careful.

Perhaps it has a lot to do with who I am in real life, I don't look at things as they look today. I tend to look at things as how they are going to look 3, 6 or 10 months from now and I make my judgment based on that. That's why a lot of times my friends think I have a weird view of things that doesn't necessarily match the views of others. And yes, there are times when I see doom and gloom when others see roses.

I guess it's the security guy in me. When you try to design a security plan, the worst thing you can do is to close the current holes and hope for the best. You need to look at other possibilities and devise a plan that can last well after you leave.

This forum gets a lot of new members daily and as JV mentioned, how people behave has a lot to do with what they see. A year from now a lot of the old timers may no longer be here and the people dominating this forum will be the new guys who join today. If being unprofessional becomes an acceptable part of this forum, there will be absolutely no hope for this forum a year from now. Because the majority of members will find it to be acceptable and just another part of being in this forum. Try telling them then about being professional. They'll throw me out of this forum.

It's all about the kind of people you attract to this forum. Joke threads attract people who like to joke, Technical threads attract people who are either technical or would like to learn as much as they can. So 6 months from now depending on the choices we make today, we'll either have a group of people who love to have fun and talk about security once in a while or we'll have a bunch of people who love to learn and discuss security issues in a professional manner and have fun occasionally. The latter is what I'm trying to have here.

I have nothing against humour. What I'm against is for humour to get in the way of business. A friendly place doesn't necessarily mean having cartoons up in every thread. A friendly place could be a place that welcomes every new member, a place that believes no question is a stupid one, a place that you can count on being helped with open arms and without being insulted. I don't think it's fair to equate not having jokes and cartoons with being unfriendly.

And here's a word to our new members and those who think they are not gurus. Well, most of us aren't. The majority of people you see answering the questions in this forum started just like you. They came here for help, they absorbed as much as they could and they decided to give something back by hanging around and answering a few questions and now they're hooked.

It's amazing how much you can learn even by reading the very technical posts and it's amazing how much more you can learn by getting your feet wet and answering the questions you know the answer for. Once you're hooked you realize that in order to answer more questions you have absolutely no choice but to learn more. That's what I call fun. If you think learning by itself isn't fun, give it a try.
--
You can catch the Devil, but you can't hold him long.

tnm456

join:2001-01-28
Connellsville, PA
reply to Wildcatboy
Hey Man,
Thx alot for addressing this issue.
For quite a long time I was visiting this site/forum daily. I to grew tired of the petty BS, Flames, and spiteful
remarks. I left the site for a few months, In the past few weeks I have made my way back. You are right, this site is not what it once was (not just security forum). At one time I could count on getting a clear and respectful reply almost immediatly, NO LONGER. I started a thread a while back, first response was a nasty anonymous flame. (worst of all he didnt know what he was talking about)

Hope you can bring it back.
oh yeah, JKK dont you ever sleep? 12k+ posts geeeez (lol)


N9ZN
Security Is A Community Effort

join:2001-03-29
Tampa, FL
reply to Wildcatboy

I had the choice...

I had the choice of just saying a simple thank you or giving you a smile.

So I decided to do both, thank you WCB.
--
"In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it goes on." - Robert Frost

LowWaterMark
Premium
join:2002-05-16
Wallingford, CT
reply to Wildcatboy

Re: Forum rules, reminder, changes, updates, ...

said by Wildcatboy:
...This forum gets a lot of new members daily ... A year from now a lot of the old timers may no longer be here and the people dominating this forum will be the new guys who join today. If being unprofessional becomes an acceptable part of this forum, there will be absolutely no hope for this forum a year from now. ...
I have lived through this exact situation, except it related to a chat environment. The structure got lax - New comers came in - Old timers went out - Pretty soon the area was entirely different than what it had been meant to be. (It's still there today and it is a sad place as far as I'm concerned.) This second post really helped to complete the first in my opinion, and together they are very well stated. Thank you.

unix_warrior

join:2002-09-11
ca

reply to Wildcatboy
Wildcatboy,

Great post I recommend dslreports when friends have questions about security and agree with your points about being more professional without the personal attacks/remarks the security fourm is not slashdot or usenet. I tune in now and then but glad to see there are changes, are we allowed to discuss nix and mac security issues in this fourm?
or is it strictly windows only?

Unix_Warrior

[text was edited by author 2002-09-11 14:57:27]

[text was edited by author 2002-09-11 15:01:24]


Randy Bell
Premium
join:2002-02-24
Santa Clara, CA
unix_warrior, welcome to dslreports!! I'm obviously not WCB, but I can tell you I've seen numerous posts here in dslr security related to Linux systems...maybe some mac questions too, but the forum represents the larger community of personal computer users, in which windows is the majority...although WCB will have the final word, my guess is that all security-related questions are welcome. There are also software and hardware forums here at dslreports...just click on the "all forums" on the left or at the top of your screen. :)


kchaz
Just...Be
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-12
Merced, CA
reply to Wildcatboy
It's refreshing to see leadership done well ...I am fairly new in respect to security and in the few months of reading and asking, many here (you know who you are) have helped me and now this is ALWAYS my first stop for security questions and answers. You people have been very helpful, polite, and to the point with me and for that I'm thankful.
WCB, you are a great moderator, and have a great forum running. If it gets any better I might be an expert some
day LOL...: Thanks to all who have helped me, and will help me! I hope some day to return the favor for another person here.
--
Go on...I have a thick shell...KcHaZ


FingerDemon

join:2001-10-15
Herndon, VA
reply to Wildcatboy
I don't post here much at all since I don't know much about security. But I do read it more often and can really appreciate a good set of rules for keeping a forum on track. WCB, obviously you put a lot of time and thought into leading these discussions and that alone puts you ahead of many forums. One thing I would like to suggest for experts helping newbies like me without wasting their valuable time, is to use the voting feature when you find a good explanation of a common topic. I can't think of another forum I've seen that has this, but it would be a good way to keep common answers to questions easily accessible, without re-writing the FAQ on a regular basis. I know if I come here with a problem the first thing I'm going to do is look at the popular posts for the last three months since I don't do much exotic stuff with my PC, I expect others will have had similar problems. I'm also usually in a panic and afraid my PC will die completely any second, so I would prefer not to have to peruse a year and a half worth of posts if it can be avoided. So even if you are not posting about a subject but recognize it as a good answer, vote it up. It might help and it can't hurt, right?

Thanks to all for the help I've received in the past and in advance for any help in future.

FingerDemon
--
From Mark Leyner's Et Tu, Babe
Last words of dying man...
"If you squander your precious, beautiful days on meaningless labor, whose ultimate purpose is to further enrich the ruling elite or solidify the hegemony of the state...
you're a sucker."


JerryC23
Character Counts 40,41,43
Premium,ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-10-08
Humble, TX

1 recommendation

reply to LowWaterMark
I meant to start a local web site over a year ago. BUT .. after being a member here a long time, I saw how a GOOD site should be developed (and how a good site can evolve) towards someting even more worth while.

This set of updated rules (I would prefer the term "guidelines", but this is not my forum )
is a perfect example of how it does continue to change for the better.
--
~Start a thread inThe Texas Gulf Coast FORUM - Win a free beer ~


Muddly
It's a grey area.

join:2001-07-16
Canada

reply to Wildcatboy
This is the first forum I found at DSLR when I registered and the one in which I did the majority of my reading for a long time. I mentioned it to anyone I knew with security questions (computer, anyway;)) because I was so impressed with the people and the information here.

I am a fan of free speech but I tend to get more use out of over-moderated forums than under-moderated ones, if I have to choose, just because there's generally less chaff to wade through. If the happy medium can be found, even better.

I did think this forum was deteriorating at one point. My visits became less frequent and seemed less rewarding each time. I hope the changes have the desired effect. I do think this forum was, and can be, one of the best Security forums anywhere.

[text was edited by author 2002-09-12 16:06:40]


Hutch3
Premium
join:2000-10-14
australia
reply to Wildcatboy
These rules seem to very fair. i have a few threads hijacked lately and my question never got answered. I just hope other members will read this sticky post and take note of the new rules.
--
A Proud Member Of Team Discovery