averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ | Competion?
"There's too much competition at just about every level."
Someone please explain this.
I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer. |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| Not always...otherwise there aren't enough profits to push forward innovation and new products. Companies just slug along fighting for continued survival. They have to prepare themselves for an economic bump and if some fail it makes investors nervous and that's where a lot of their money comes from. Companies need to be big enough to weather an occasional storm without severe changes in services or going under. Right now...there aren't enough profits being made by some telcos that they're desperate...and they run down prices damaging profitable companies like Verizon. It brings down average service as companies like Verizon have cut services (thus costs) to match the price point of a failing and desperate company.
Some consolidation is good...but not this crap that the FCC is permitting like the ATTB/Comcast merger.
--
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson
[text was edited by author 2002-12-09 20:12:26] |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| reply to averagedude
said by averagedude  :
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.
--
I found out that all the important lessons of life are contained in the three rules for achieving a perfect golf swing: 1.Keep your head down - 2. Follow through - 3. Be born with money |
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averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI
| reply to Count Hogula$
Still confused.
But, prices on internet and cell phones are still high (example ATTi/Comcast raising rates again). Isn't there a point where reducing prices to bring on board more customers will generate revenue that otherwise they would never had. They are suppose to make it up in bulk/quantity of sales. That is what Wal-Mart does.
I still feel that we as customers are still getting gouged (in general like internet and cell phone). I am tired of hearing that the customers have to carry the burden of all the mistakes of the big companies. It feels like the tele-coms can make stupid mistakes they want and they never "feel" the pain, but pass it on to the customers.
For example, I don't understand cell phones the take pictures, when I still get messages say "NO SERVICE" in populated area. I think they should focus on the basics first. Just my 2 cents. |
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pkust
join:2001-08-09
Houston, TX
| reply to averagedude
said by averagedude :
I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
Consumers want competition because it lowers prices. Suppliers don't want competition for exactly the same reason.
Whether there is too much or too little competition is highly dependent on which side of the supply and demand equation you happen to be standing.
--
Cordially,
Peter Nayland Kust
pkust@tekmedia.com
TEKMedia Communications
www.tekmedia.com |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| reply to averagedude
Prices on cell phones aren't high. Look how much minutes and hardware costs 7 years ago compared to today. Internet isn't expensive as it's relative. 10 years ago Netcom provided 14.4 service for $20...now you can get 10Mb for $40 if it's available. Deployment is a different issue from general telecom competition. ISP isn't a telecom's bread and butter business.
And lastly...your complaints about QoS is a direct result from competition. There aren't the profits to improve service, deploy, expand, etc. Technology advancements in phones while appearing to be part of the whole telco scene actually don't come from telcos...they come from manufactuers like Motorola who only make the phones but don't do the content providing.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson |
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djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
 ·PHONE POWER
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T CallVantage
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to averagedude
Nothing is that black-and-white. Certainly not economics!
Ideally:
Competition amongst a handful of vendors ensures that each vendor strives to have customers give them their dollars. They provide incentives and the most reasonable price possible while maintaining enough profitability to have good service quality, ensuring that they are chosen over the competition.
(Let's use a bread shop as an example)
One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices.
Less ideally:
A big corporation comes in and competes with smaller companies in town. To do this, they sell their product at a loss long enough to put the smaller guys out of business. The consumers benefit from this practice, until the competition is gone and the prices go up.
BreadMart comes in and sells halfway decent bread for .10 a loaf, for 6 months. Even if the local mom'n pop bread tasted better, it's just hard for the consumer to pass up such a good deal. Since nobody's buying mom'n pop's bread, they and other's like them can't withstand to lose money for that long and all go out of business. BreadMart jacks the prices back up to $5 a loaf.
Even less ideally:
There's so much competition in the sector that none of the companies are turning enough of a profit to maintain a decent service level.
Since bread was such a hot item, everyone is trying to sell it at $2 a loaf. There are 30 vendors selling bread. Not enough variety to make any one vendor noticeably better than the other (they're all selling pretty much the same thing), so people more or less choose at random. There's only 200 people in town that buy bread, so each vendor is only selling 5 or 6 loaves a day on average. The profits from 5 loafs a day isn't enough to pay the rent and for the employees, so they all shorten their hours, hire the cheapest help they can find, and resort to using inferior quality ingredients to stay alive. People get so used to inferior service but continue to pay because they "need" bread. A couple companies attempt to sell good quality bread with good service at $3 to turn a proper profit, but people are now so used to *cheap bread with mediocre service* that it seems overpriced.
So, competition isn't *always* the answer.
[text was edited by author 2002-12-09 21:56:14] |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by djrobx :
One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices
The problem is is that nobody is making a better loaf of bread. its all this sleepy 1500/128 crap. us consumers have been crying for YEARS for BETTER UPLOAD RATES. now its the same 1500/128 but who has the most liberal TOS. that isnt better, thats just who's tightening the screws to us the least. if they can have 10,000/10,000 for $22 in sweden why cant we even have 2,000/2,000 for $50? |
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boogie74
join:2001-06-19
Neenah, WI
clubs:
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :
said by averagedude :
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.
Correction- don't invest your 401(k) in telco stocks IFF (if and only if) you are retiring in the next 2-5 years.
If you have another 15-30 years to go before retirement, telco is the EXACT WAY to invest your 401(k) money. Think about it- you are buying stock at DIRT CHEAP prices. Are you actually afraid that in the next 20-30 years the market won't change for the better?
I, for one, would rather have 40 shares purchased at $1 and now worth $50 than 1 share purchased at $40 and now worth $50. My 40 shares would be worth $200 vs the 1 share at $50.
About 11% of people actually make money in the stock market- and it is primarily because they don't understand the idea of "buy low, sell high." They buy high and sell when it bombs to a low- saying, "don't buy now! the prices for stock are too low!!"
I say, "Are you that crazy??"
Booogie |
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boogie74
join:2001-06-19
Neenah, WI
clubs:
| reply to dvd536
said by dvd536 :
said by djrobx :
One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices
The problem is is that nobody is making a better loaf of bread. its all this sleepy 1500/128 crap. us consumers have been crying for YEARS for BETTER UPLOAD RATES. now its the same 1500/128 but who has the most liberal TOS. that isnt better, thats just who's tightening the screws to us the least. if they can have 10,000/10,000 for $22 in sweden why cant we even have 2,000/2,000 for $50?
If you need better upload rates than 128 Kbps, then you are doing MUCH MORE than Joe Consumer surfing the web, playing an occasional online game, checking and sending email, and downloading music/video files.
When you want consumer rates for non-consumer use and complaining because the TOS doesn't allow for that, something besides the TOS stinks.
Boogie |
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ihaddsl
join:2001-12-05
/dev/hda0
·Comcast
| reply to boogie74
said by boogie74 :
said by TKJunkMail :
said by averagedude :
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.
Correction- don't invest your 401(k) in telco stocks IFF (if and only if) you are retiring in the next 2-5 years.
If you have another 15-30 years to go before retirement, telco is the EXACT WAY to invest your 401(k) money. Think about it- you are buying stock at DIRT CHEAP prices. Are you actually afraid that in the next 20-30 years the market won't change for the better?
I, for one, would rather have 40 shares purchased at $1 and now worth $50 than 1 share purchased at $40 and now worth $50. My 40 shares would be worth $200 vs the 1 share at $50.
About 11% of people actually make money in the stock market- and it is primarily because they don't understand the idea of "buy low, sell high." They buy high and sell when it bombs to a low- saying, "don't buy now! the prices for stock are too low!!"
I say, "Are you that crazy??"
Booogie
sssshhhhh
don't let the secret out !
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War has no winners, only losers |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| reply to Count Hogula$
"If it's available" is the key problem.
"The U.S. telecom market might best be an inherent oligopoly, where you should have only have three or four players per region, because it is such a capital-intensive industry."
Too much competition? Ummmmm....kay.....I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition? Please.
I wonder how much SBC paid that analyst to say what he said.
And Hog, according to your logic, then any "new" company that wants to provide competitive service has to start OUT as a large company, eh? Name ONE that started out large and got smaller, instead of the only other way, which is start small and get LARGER.
It is nice to see that one analyst acknowledges the oligopoly that exists, though.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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alex4life
Alex4life
Premium
join:2001-06-22
Delta, BC
| reply to boogie74
said by boogie74 :
If you need better upload rates than 128 Kbps, then you are doing MUCH MORE than Joe Consumer surfing the web, playing an occasional online game, checking and sending email, and downloading music/video files.
When you want consumer rates for non-consumer use and complaining because the TOS doesn't allow for that, something besides the TOS stinks.
Boogie
That's a matter of opinion, not fact. 128 is a crap upload. What if you want to send a big file to a friend? It takes forever! Why can't our speeds be more synchronous? Why is that considered to be criminal by you?
If these services don't offer what people want, then maybe they shouldn't be offering them at all. Maybe that's the problem. The demand is there, but the companies can't supply it.
And he has a point. No one is offering anything better.
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"A Festivus for the rest of us" -Seinfeld Drop by the Canadian Forum! |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| Boogie takes that position because he is "Pavlov's dog" in this area. He works for an RBOC. What position do you expect him to take?
Normally, Boog has good opinions on things, but I continually disagree with him on this topic.
I agree that 128k is garbage. I know that if you want to send a large attachment to anyone then you will waiting quite a while at that upload speed, and the whole "anything above 128k is a business rate and not a consumer rate" is a bogus argument. The RBOCs can provide it but won't. It is a matter of the consumer "sheeple" being forced to buy what THEY choose to offer.
My opinion also is that it is a tactic to hold the consumers and government "hostage" under the premise that unless the RBOCs get all of the pro-RBOC legislation that they seek as well as dismantling what is left of TA1996, then no innovation such as Project Pronto will go forward.
It's all a political tug-of-war to move their agendas through Congress to reinforce the same monopolies that they have enjoyed for over 100 years.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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weebies$
What The Heck?
join:2002-10-26
Wayne, MI |  reply to djrobx
Nice post. Really enjoyed reading it. |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| Yeah, nice lengthy post. I will point out that the analogy is kinda flawed, being that hundreds of bakeries make bread, and you can get it anywhere, anytime, for around the same price.
The same can't be said for broadband of any flavor.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
| reply to BrianDamage
said by BrianDamage :
I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition?
Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.
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»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West) |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to averagedude
quote:
I am tired of hearing that the customers have to carry the burden of all the mistakes of the big companies.
Not to mention the employees that have been working hard to keep them in business. They have to pay too. The people who drive the SUVs and made the bad decisions that is why the company is going down, they don't have to pay.
--
»www.tfn.net/~jdbaucum
[text was edited by author 2002-12-10 07:28:31] |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| reply to Hayward
said by Hayward :
said by BrianDamage :
I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition?
Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.
More if you count "big" dishes. And again...telco is more than just DSL. Telco is wireless, DSL, business data services, long distance...and much much more. ALL are having fierce competition...too fierce.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson |
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macyh
Ex-Isp
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-24
Medina, OH
·Armstrong Zoom In..
| reply to averagedude
Comrades, our politicians know what is best
Da, we must remove messy and inefficient competition from market. Congress and FCC know best what is good for American people. The solution is central planning from out find government, comrade.
Large telco, cable and media monopolies make large political contributions and pay for expensive lobbying and many fine dinners, this keeps large government officials well fed, satisfied and happy. Large media organizations support think tanks which issue reports in favor of big government, media consolidation and controlled competition. In this way, large media monopoly owned news and PR organizations have much to report about that is good for large media.
Much more efficient that all those small players nipping at our heels and supporting pesky organizations like EFF and EPIC who always ask embarrassing questions. And the small players don't contribute to campaigns or run feel good news stories, either.
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Macy Hallock APK Net, Inc. Cleveland, Ohio
[text was edited by author 2002-12-10 08:08:32] |
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