averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
 ·Cox HSI
| reply to Count Hogula$
Re: Competion?
Still confused.
But, prices on internet and cell phones are still high (example ATTi/Comcast raising rates again). Isn't there a point where reducing prices to bring on board more customers will generate revenue that otherwise they would never had. They are suppose to make it up in bulk/quantity of sales. That is what Wal-Mart does.
I still feel that we as customers are still getting gouged (in general like internet and cell phone). I am tired of hearing that the customers have to carry the burden of all the mistakes of the big companies. It feels like the tele-coms can make stupid mistakes they want and they never "feel" the pain, but pass it on to the customers.
For example, I don't understand cell phones the take pictures, when I still get messages say "NO SERVICE" in populated area. I think they should focus on the basics first. Just my 2 cents. |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| Prices on cell phones aren't high. Look how much minutes and hardware costs 7 years ago compared to today. Internet isn't expensive as it's relative. 10 years ago Netcom provided 14.4 service for $20...now you can get 10Mb for $40 if it's available. Deployment is a different issue from general telecom competition. ISP isn't a telecom's bread and butter business.
And lastly...your complaints about QoS is a direct result from competition. There aren't the profits to improve service, deploy, expand, etc. Technology advancements in phones while appearing to be part of the whole telco scene actually don't come from telcos...they come from manufactuers like Motorola who only make the phones but don't do the content providing.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs: 
| "If it's available" is the key problem.
"The U.S. telecom market might best be an inherent oligopoly, where you should have only have three or four players per region, because it is such a capital-intensive industry."
Too much competition? Ummmmm....kay.....I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition? Please.
I wonder how much SBC paid that analyst to say what he said.
And Hog, according to your logic, then any "new" company that wants to provide competitive service has to start OUT as a large company, eh? Name ONE that started out large and got smaller, instead of the only other way, which is start small and get LARGER.
It is nice to see that one analyst acknowledges the oligopoly that exists, though.
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After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
| said by BrianDamage  :
I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition?
Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.
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»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West) |
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Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| reply to averagedude
quote:
I am tired of hearing that the customers have to carry the burden of all the mistakes of the big companies.
Not to mention the employees that have been working hard to keep them in business. They have to pay too. The people who drive the SUVs and made the bad decisions that is why the company is going down, they don't have to pay.
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»www.tfn.net/~jdbaucum
[text was edited by author 2002-12-10 07:28:31] |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| reply to Hayward
said by Hayward :
said by BrianDamage :
I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition?
Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.
More if you count "big" dishes. And again...telco is more than just DSL. Telco is wireless, DSL, business data services, long distance...and much much more. ALL are having fierce competition...too fierce.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson |
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footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
| reply to averagedude
said by averagedude :
It feels like the tele-coms can make stupid mistakes they want and they never "feel" the pain, but pass it on to the customers.
Believe it, the Telcos are feeling much pain right now. The RBOCS are losing land lines at an alarming rate due to competition from other phone companies and cannibalism from wireless. Regardless of profits (which can be manipulated by accountants) the real statement of position for a company is the stock price and the telco stocks have taken a real beating in the last couple of years with no relief in sight. The only way this pain can be passed on to customers is through rate hikes or service degradation. Rates are regulated by the public service commissions in each state. If you think your rates are too high you complain to your state's commission, not the telcos. For service degradation you'd complain to the telco, but who amongst us can say their phones don't work? |
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boogie74
join:2001-06-19
Neenah, WI
clubs:
| reply to Count Hogula$
said by Count Hogula$ :
said by Hayward :
said by BrianDamage :
I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition?
Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.
More if you count "big" dishes. And again...telco is more than just DSL. Telco is wireless, DSL, business data services, long distance...and much much more. ALL are having fierce competition...too fierce.
I'm not sure why people here think that the only business that telco's offer is DSL. They consistently make statements about how TA1996 was all about linesharing and how UNE-P is all about DSL- and they refuse to understand that there is MUCH MUCH MORE to the picture than whether Covad can offer lineshare DSL while the ILEC sells only POTS service.
Adding insult to injury, people here have incredibly anti-ILEC attitudes that cause them to scream bloody murder when ANYTHING happens news-wise that happens to mention an ILEC.
They have complained when the news stated that SBC is lowering prices- claiming that it was anti-competitive. They have complained when the news stated that Verizon had layoffs- claiming that it was affecting DSL rollouts.
It all proves one thing only- people as a whole will read their own meaning into ANYTHING.
Boogie |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| reply to Hayward
Are you on a private or mini regional bell? If not how is it you only have one choice for DSL??? Cable I can understand that, but not DSL. Satellite you should have two.
The RBOC I have is Verizon.
Rhythms used to be in my area, as was Covad. Rhythms went Chap11, and Covad pulled out of my CO.
Earthlink offers re-packaged Verizon DSL-so it is that any one independent ISP offering "competitive" DSL 9 times out of 10 is selling a bundled RBOC-provided DSL service-which is really not competition at all. You are still getting an RBOC offering, just re-badged. A lot of people don't realize that. Lastly, it is dynamic with no choice of static-even if I would consider it, it's not what I want. I can't run my home LAN off of a static IP. So do I have choice? No.
Cable? AT&T Broadband is the only game in town. To get it, I have to buy their cable service too. Is this choice? No.
Satellite? I have DirectTV, but don't want DirectPC because of the caps and latency. Dish? Can't get it. Choice here? No.
There are no wireless providers that have a viable alternative, like fixed wireless (Axcelerra, etc.), RBOC or not. Choice? You see where I'm going with this.
Even with the DSL faux "choices" available, they are all re-packaged RBOC services, and given the "choice",I would choose DSL because it is superior to cable and satellite. But I DON'T have any choices. Period.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| reply to Count Hogula$
You make it sound as if the telcos are gonna pit their own services against each other, which is not the truth.
If anything, they spew untruths about their own DSL and capabilities particularly where small to medium businesses are concerned so that they can pitch their more expensive services (full and frac T-1s, frame relay, etc.)
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After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| reply to footballdude
Believe it, the Telcos are feeling much pain right now. The RBOCS are losing land lines at an alarming rate due to competition from other phone companies and cannibalism from wireless. Regardless of profits (which can be manipulated by accountants) the real statement of position for a company is the stock price and the telco stocks have taken a real beating in the last couple of years with no relief in sight.
Really? Funny, the RBOCs are the only ones to turn profits in the last ten years. So as to say that even during the CLEC "heyday" only the RBOCs turned profits.
So now the RBOCs are guilty of cooking the books too, are they? You an SBC accountant? I guess you slipped up and spilled the beans. Hey SEC........!!!!
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| reply to boogie74
I'm not sure why people here think that the only business that telco's offer is DSL.
Boog, I never said that TA1996 was only for DCLECs, nor did I say that all RBOCs offer is DSL. When did I ever say that?
There were other CLECs who were interested in other things (local dial-tone services, long distance, per-paid local, pre-paid long distance,etc.)
They have had the same problems with RBOCs with respect to the unbundling of facilities, so don't confuse the issue. It just so happened that the DCLECs were more gung-ho about chasing up violations of the act and seeing them through a court of law.
Others could just ride the coat-tails of the decisions, because when the DCLECs got the decisions, it would benefit all of the others too.
It's called letting someone else do the work.
They have complained when the news stated that SBC is lowering prices- claiming that it was anti-competitive. They have complained when the news stated that Verizon had layoffs- claiming that it was affecting DSL rollouts.
SBC lowered prices to an unfair level while charging CLECs so much that they could not possibly offer a service at the same price. THAT is what was anti-competitive, because it was a deliberate attempt at undercutting competitors by using unfair practices. At to "add insult to injury" as you put it, the RBOCs would sic their own sales people on those who had contacted competitors for service, telling them that "we" could offer you service cheaper than the "competitor".
SBC got sued over this very tactic.
As far the layoffs go, it was the RBOCs that claimed that competition was forcing layoffs, thereby delaying the Pronto deployment, which continues to be a hostage tactic in getting their agendas through Congress.
This idea was the basis for Tauzin-Dingell.
The CLECs decried the misinformation being disseminated by the RBOCs.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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footballdude
Premium
join:2002-08-13
Imperial, MO
| reply to BrianDamage
said by BrianDamage :
So now the RBOCs are guilty of cooking the books too, are they
Note the words 'can be'. They make a difference. You really are an 'excitable boy', aren't you? |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs: | You implied it, not me.
(wipes the drool from his chin) |
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sadowski
I Am My Own Doppelganger
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-14
Buffalo, NY
clubs:
| reply to BrianDamage
said by BrianDamage :
Rhythms used to be in my area, as was Covad. Rhythms went Chap11, and Covad pulled out of my CO.
I used to have Rhythms, NP, Covad and VZ. Now I have VZ and Choice One (and the evil Adelphia on the cable side). Covad is still here but doesn't service my CO. The CC's got into a big price war and killed themselves off. It's predominantly their own fault. Greed kills. Additionally, DSL is not so prevalent that every company can have facilities at every CO. I would rather have one reasonably priced resource than a bunch of instable wildly priced services of questionable service and lifetime. Competition has become an unthinking mantra, but it only works when a critical mass has been exceeded and there is room for competitors to succeed.
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In this world of sin and sorrow, there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. -- H.L. Mencken |
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Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
| reply to BrianDamage
said by BrianDamage :
Lastly, it is dynamic with no choice of static-even if I would consider it, it's not what I want. I can't run my home LAN off of a static IP.
Is that last line what you meant to say???
Not sure what a WAN IP has to do with running LAN anyway that is all internal.
Many people run home networks using dynamic IP as well as static.
It being a Verizon piece of copper or even the DSLAM has nothing to do with the connection being static or dynamic... that is all the ISP's doing. (for instance here Bell South is dynamic, but my DTVDSL (via BS infrastructure is static)
So yes you are stuck with the Verizon copper & DSLAM but there are many different things individual ISP's can do to offer "choices".
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»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West) |
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BigMac777
join:2001-07-21
Green Valley, AZ
 ·Qwest.net
| reply to Count Hogula$
I am in San Antonio, Tx. And I don't have a DSL provider in my area. SBC SW Bell is the local phone carrier. Also I have (1) one cable choice, Time Warner. I choose Dish Satellite and Earthlink Cable for the computer. As I said this is San Antonio. These are my only choices. SBC SW Bell might wire my part of town next year. Who knows, This is a town of (1) million plus. |
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boogie74
join:2001-06-19
Neenah, WI
clubs:
| quote:
I am in San Antonio, Tx. And I don't have a DSL provider in my area. SBC SW Bell is the local phone carrier. Also I have (1) one cable choice, Time Warner. I choose Dish Satellite and Earthlink Cable for the computer. As I said this is San Antonio. These are my only choices. SBC SW Bell might wire my part of town next year. Who knows, This is a town of (1) million plus.
As it's been stated before, I will say it again- this article isn't saying that there is too much broadband competition. It's saying that there is too much telecom competition.
There is a HUGE difference. As far as broadband, no one wants to invest in it when there is no profit to be made- and that includes the RBOC's. There is NO incentive to deploy a product when you are required to share your investments with your competitors who invest nothing.
Boogie |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| reply to BigMac777
said by BigMac777 :
I am in San Antonio, Tx. And I don't have a DSL provider in my area. SBC SW Bell is the local phone carrier. Also I have (1) one cable choice, Time Warner. I choose Dish Satellite and Earthlink Cable for the computer. As I said this is San Antonio. These are my only choices. SBC SW Bell might wire my part of town next year. Who knows, This is a town of (1) million plus.
How many choices do you have for wireless? Long distance? The world of Telco goes far beyond DSL.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| reply to Hayward
No, that last line isn't what I meant to say.
I understand how the infrastructure is built. I built many of the backbone connections out between the companies I worked for (Covad, Rhythms) and our partners (Flashcom, JumpNet, etc.) I know that the back door to the ISP can give rise to service differences. I know this. I ran DS3 backbones between ATM switches in our POPs to Redback and Cisco routers that belonged to our partners, and configured them, on several occasions.
What we have now though, is a fundamental LACK of competitive choice, even under these circumstances. Most of the independent ISPs like we had before have "gone the way of the boneyard" as Gump put it, and those like Prodigy, etc., and just the long arm of SBC.
In my area, I have no choices. Period. It is just the same way in 95% of the rest of the country.
For someone to say that there is "too much competition" is just friggin' ridiculous.
--
After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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