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O Anrai
Premium Member
join:2000-07-23
Cheyenne, WY

O Anrai

Premium Member

TurboTax 2002 Spyware/Malware Question

There is a question about TT2002 installing spyware/malware. This thread has additional information, »SafeCast ?. Has anyone else out had any recent experience with TT2002, and do you have any thoughts on this matter, or any additional information on the inclusion of c_dilla in this package.

OldDog0
join:2001-02-17

OldDog0

Member

I've recently purchased (but not yet installed) TT2002. If I can be of any assistance, I'll be glad to help. My Win2k install is less than a month old, and is free of any spyware.

I'm not very skilled at tracking programs as they install, but I've got some fresh snow and we can see what tracks TT2002 leaves.

Suggestions?

O Anrai
Premium Member
join:2000-07-23
Cheyenne, WY

O Anrai

Premium Member

I'd sit on the installation for a couple of days, hopefully we can get some more info in the interim. During the installation a hidden directory is installed to the C drive, C:\C_DILLA, with a hidden sub directory named 'safeCast product licenses'. It also installs a service 'C-DillaCdaC11BA', which runs 'CDAC11BA.EXE'. I've notified TT that I want to know what this is, what purpose it serves, etc; and am awaiting a reply. At no time during the TT install process does it reference installing this service, or what it's for. I've got a problem with that, this is my box, not theirs. If I don't get a response to my email to TT in the next 24 hours, I'll get on the phone and see what they have to say.
gatzdon
join:2002-10-25
Lake Zurich, IL

gatzdon to O Anrai

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to O Anrai
Can you post a copy of the SLA for the TT2002.

I haven't bought it yet, but I've found the the SLA usually contains some sort of attempted legal loophole if the spyware is intentional.

There is also the possibility that your copy is not an original. If you at least have what you believe to be a legitimate serial #/receipt, I would definitely follow up with Intuit (I think that was the company) with a letter in writing.

Good Ol Dan
join:2000-05-15
The Villages, FL

Good Ol Dan to O Anrai

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to O Anrai
said by O Anrai:
It also installs a service 'C-DillaCdaC11BA', which runs 'CDAC11BA.EXE'.
That file shows up as a "Macrovision RTS Service", and is located in the windows/system32/drivers directory. I stopped the service with task manager, but noticed that it started again when I ran TT2002 (Basic). I disabled the 'C-DillaCdaC11BA' service, and found that TT2002 still seemed to run normally... but then found that it changed the service from "disabled" back to "automatic" and re-started the service! Evil!

I renamed the 'CDAC11BA.EXE' file to 'CDAC11BA_EXE.safe', made sure the service was stopped and disabled, and then ran TT2002. It placed a new copy of 'CDAC11BA.EXE' in the windows/system32/drivers directory, set the service back to "automatic" and started it! Really evil!

Macrovision provides the SafeCast technology to Intuit, and this is apparently what ensures that you run the program on one machine only. It probably plays some role in the initial program registration process, but maybe also has something to do with the ability to "unlock" the "Deluxe" version (if they finally succeed in beating you into submission).

Dan

[text was edited by author 2002-12-16 11:05:12]
gatzdon
join:2002-10-25
Lake Zurich, IL

gatzdon

Member

If what you say is true, then it sounds like Intuit may have made the Spyware list because there would be no reason to keep the service running on the computer unless you are actually using turbotax.

corster
Premium Member
join:2002-02-23
Oshawa, ON

corster to O Anrai

Premium Member

to O Anrai
If It does contain spyware you might want to put it in the FAQ
»:/faq/spyware

Skryking
join:2002-01-13
Naperville, IL

Skryking to O Anrai

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to O Anrai
where did you happen to get your copy of tt2002. I'm asking because I just recieved a copy in the mail yesterday. Its one of those where you install it and then provide a credit card to pay for it. When I first saw it I thought it was an AOL cd and was going to toss it, but I actually took the time to look at the front of it and was surprised that it was from intuit.

katgoomee
join:2002-01-01
Ashtabula, OH

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As mentioned in the other topic »/forum/remark,530729... in this forum, C-Dilla is a copy protection company. They use safedisc. Taken from cdmediaworld : "The SafeDisc technology is a software-based solution that does not require any changes to standard PC or CD-ROM hardware. It is comprised of both an authenticating digital signature embedded on the disc, as well as a multi-layered encrypted wrapper that secures the CD-ROM content. The digital signature, which cannot be copied by CD recorders or mastering equipment, is embedded by the laser beam recorder at the time the CD-ROM master is made at the mastering/replication facility."
It's designed to help developers/publishers protect their software from unauthorized copying. (piracy)
The 'service' .exe file waits for the cdkey/serial whichever, after entered it's happy. Relax
Defeat it? well...only if you want to make copies for poor uncle bob
It's not spyware it's copy protection for their software.

Regards,

O Anrai
Premium Member
join:2000-07-23
Cheyenne, WY

O Anrai

Premium Member

I purchased my copy at retail (CostCo), installed and followed all procedures for registration, installed and registered w/o a hitch. When I found the service running, I also disabled it and manually disabled 'CDAC11BA.EXE' in task manager. Not withstanding that every time I run TT2002 it restarts the service and 'CDAC11BA.EXE', and today I noticed it starts a tmp file, '~f1d055.tmp'. The temp file disappears from task manager when TT2002 is shut down, but 'CDAC11BA.EXE' does not. I don't have a problem with Intuit wanting to protect their software, and I don't have a problem with 'CDAC11BA.EXE' running when I use TT2002. I do have a problem with it running all the time when I don't know what purpose it serves, and I do have a problem with Intuit reconfiguring my box without my specific permission. I've gone through the license agreement, and find nothing about the installation or purpose for this service. The tedious agreement follows:

Software License and Services Agreement and Limited Warranty
Tax Year 2002 TurboTax® Software
© 2002 Intuit Inc., All Rights Reserved.

PLEASE CAREFULLY REVIEW THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS IN THIS LEGAL AGREEMENT BEFORE INSTALLING OR USING THE SOFTWARE. BY INSTALLING OR USING THE SOFTWARE, YOU ARE ACCEPTING THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS IN THIS AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND INTUIT INC. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU SHOULD CLICK ON THE "I DO NOT ACCEPT" BUTTON AND THE SOFTWARE WILL NOT BE INSTALLED. IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THIS AGREEMENT AND OBTAINED THE SOFTWARE FROM A RETAIL STORE, RETURN THE SOFTWARE AND ACCOMPANYING ITEMS TO THAT STORE WITHIN 60 DAYS OF YOUR PURCHASE WITH A DATED RECEIPT FOR A FULL REFUND. IF YOU OBTAINED THE SOFTWARE DIRECTLY FROM INTUIT, RETURN IT WITH THE ORIGINAL PACKING SLIP WITHIN 60 DAYS OF SHIPMENT OF THE SOFTWARE TO INTUIT RETURNS, 6060 NANCY RIDGE DRIVE, SUITE 100, SAN DIEGO, CA 92121-3290, FOR A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE.

PRODUCT ACTIVATION REQUIRED. TurboTax for Windows federal desktop products must be activated by Internet or telephone prior to printing or filing a return or using the forms mode in the product. Product activation is based on the exchange of numeric codes between your computer and Intuit. None of these numbers contain personally identifiable information nor can they be used to identify any personal information about you or any characteristics of your PC configuration.

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corster
Premium Member
join:2002-02-23
Oshawa, ON

corster to O Anrai

Premium Member

to O Anrai
said by Software License and Services Agreement and Limited Warranty:
Third Party Services
Services, products, offers and promotions provided by third parties, and not by Intuit, are made available in connection with the marketing, distribution and use of the Software ("Third Party Services"). The Third Party Services may include refund anticipation loans, refund transfers, live tax advice, professional tax review and audit defense, among others. You are responsible for reviewing and understanding the terms and conditions governing any Third Party Services and your participation in such Third Party Services indicate your acceptance of such terms and conditions. Intuit is not responsible for the performance of third parties in connection with the Third Party Services.

jmorlan
Hmm... That's funny.
MVM
join:2001-02-05
Pacifica, CA

jmorlan to O Anrai

MVM

to O Anrai
It sounds like TurboTax is constantly checking to ensure the installed product is licenced whether it is running or not. Is it checking internally, or is it sending information back to Intuit?
gatzdon
join:2002-10-25
Lake Zurich, IL

gatzdon to corster

Member

to corster
I think the "Third Party Services" is referring to advertising only. At least that is my interpretation.

But I do find it interesting that through their legalese, they are attempting to sell you the right to "use" the software "once", not the rights to your "Copy" of the software.

They are apparently writing the SLA based on the past history of everyone buying one copy, completing their return, remove the software, pass disc on to next person, repeat. A process that would normally be legal as the software would only be on one computer at a time.

Furthermore, it would appear that it is legal to let everyone you know use the software to "compute" their return, they just can't use the software to "print" their return. I guess you could just copy the numbers by hand.

spiderwebwom
Premium Member
join:2001-06-11
Oak Island, NC

spiderwebwom

Premium Member

Does that mean I can't use *my* copy of TT to do my return and my daughter's on the same computer?

gwion
wild colonial boy

join:2000-12-28
Pittsburgh, PA

gwion to O Anrai

to O Anrai
That's never been a problem, as far as I know. The problem arises when people buy one copy and share it among households. My comments are on the table in the other related thread, though. I respect fully their right to protect their product, but I find these ambiguous, secretive tampering maneuvers to be a reflection on the integrity of the software, whether they want them to be or not. This is tax prep software, not a game... what might be acceptable in recreational software has no place whatsoever in high-integrity, mission specific financial software... if, in fact, secretive tampering with private property is ever acceptable in any software product... after all, whether it's spyware or not, we call hidden things like this "trojanized code" if we find it in a download from "Joe's Freeware Site", how does it magically become legitimate to treat a computer as anything other than private property rightly within the exclusive control of the owner, just because the software comes from a corporation?

navalair
Navalair
Premium Member
join:2001-02-16
Arkansas City, KS

navalair

Premium Member

An unsettling thread as I have used Turbo Tax since it was first created and have come to depend on it. I also use Quicken and upgrade it every couple of years. Considering that they are both Intuit products, anyone have any guesses or knowledge that Quicken also installs the same or other unwanted garbage for copy protection and/or "call home" purposes?

O Anrai
Premium Member
join:2000-07-23
Cheyenne, WY

O Anrai

Premium Member

navalair, like you I have been using both TT and Quicken for years, currently using Q2003 H&B. There is no indication that Q2003 installs any type of tracking or licensing routines, the only thing that loads is 'qw.exe'. Trying to contact Intuit is an exercise in futility, I have had no response to my email from last week, so I wnet online to chat with one of their reps yesterday, the IM routine. Needless to say, it was not productive, their rep indicated that's the way it is, and, in essence, brushed me off. So my next step is to snail mail their CEO, and ask him about it. I'll post a copy of the letter when I complete it.

This is probably the wave of the future, this type of copy protection, licensing, etc., and I don't particularly have a problem with it. My complaint is that they are reconfiguring my computer, I don't like that. If their underlying programs shut down when TT02 is not running then that would be fine, but it doesn't, it's like the energizer bunny, it just keeps running and running.

I downloaded the trial version of MS Money yesterday just to give it a test run, I may switch because of this.
gatzdon
join:2002-10-25
Lake Zurich, IL

gatzdon

Member

"The Software also contains Intuit trade secrets."

You can also ask when did the IRS Tax code become a trade secret.

LOL

O Anrai
Premium Member
join:2000-07-23
Cheyenne, WY

O Anrai

Premium Member

OK folks, my letter to Intuit's CEO. Hopefully we'll get a response; however, given the level of response to date I'm not taking any bets.

Mr. Stephen Bennett
Intuit Inc.
PO Box 7850
Mountain View, CA 94039-7850

December 17, 2002

Dear Mr. Bennett;

I am a long time Intuit customer, previously using Quickbooks, and currently Quicken Premier Home and Business and TurboTax Premier Home and Business. I write to file a formal complaint regarding the product activation implemented in TurboTax 2002.

I have no problem with product activation, the need for it, or your inherent right to protect Intuit's intellectual property. I do have a problem with the implementation of product activation, in that TurboTax installs hidden directories on my primary drive, and installs services within WinXP, without my express permission or knowledge.

The service cannot be disabled, or removed to my knowledge. The service is installed as Macrovision RTS Service (SafeCast Windows NT), and runs continuously. The display name of the service is 'C-DillaCdaC11BA' which runs the file 'CDAC11BA.EXE'. I can disable the service and 'CDAC11BA.EXE' manually, but it restarts when I run TT2002. In my view there is no reason for 'CDAC11BA.EXE' to be running when I am not using TT2002.

My other complaint is that there is no reference in your licensing agreement to the installation, or purpose of this service. You have modified my system configuration without my express permission or knowledge. This computer belongs to me, not to you or Intuit. It is my express belief that software that is installed under the guise of another program, in this case TT2002, constitutes spyware or malware.

I have no idea what this program does, or what it's intended to do, and would appreciate an explanation. If your program design started 'CDAC11BA.EXE', and then terminated the file when TT2002 was closed, I could probably live with that. However, having a program running constantly is annoying, especially when I don't know its purpose.

Now, I'm not going to scrap my Intuit products. For this tax year I'm tied in to Quicken and TurboTax, but I am going to start looking at available options for future purchases.

Yours truly,

/s

spiderwebwom
Premium Member
join:2001-06-11
Oak Island, NC

spiderwebwom

Premium Member

I Googled for 'CDAC11BA.EXE' and found a few hits; it seems Intuit is not the only company using it - check this out: »www.dynedyr.org/blog.php?id=300

"Besides doing what it's supposed to do (Making CD copying harder), it disables your ability to burn CDs, logs all your attempted burns, logs all your downloaded files!."
FriscoTX
join:2002-10-11
Frisco, TX

FriscoTX

Member

said by spiderwebwom:
I Googled for 'CDAC11BA.EXE' and found a few hits; it seems Intuit is not the only company using it - check this out: »www.dynedyr.org/blog.php?id=300

"Besides doing what it's supposed to do (Making CD copying harder), it disables your ability to burn CDs, logs all your attempted burns, logs all your downloaded files!."

I find it very hard to believe that a company like Intuit would go that far. Of course I found it hard to believe that a company like Intuit would place such an item in their product in the first place with no notice or description of its purpose.

I agree that Intuit (or any company) has the right to protect their software from illegal use but to have to go to such an extreme seems out of place.

OldDog0
join:2001-02-17

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said by FriscoTX:
said by spiderwebwom:
I Googled for 'CDAC11BA.EXE' and found a few hits; it seems Intuit is not the only company using it - check this out: »www.dynedyr.org/blog.php?id=300

"Besides doing what it's supposed to do (Making CD copying harder), it disables your ability to burn CDs, logs all your attempted burns, logs all your downloaded files!."

I find it very hard to believe that a company like Intuit would go that far.
I read that page and was kind of put off by the author's hyperbole. Yes, he's trying to show flaws in the protection by reducing the language to absurdity, but it just comes off as FUD and I've had my fill of that from politicians.

The truth is probably less dramatic (but possibly stranger) than the fiction.
Bob142
join:2001-03-28
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Well, that helps me make up my mind. I'll be switching to TaxCut this year. Thanks for the information!
chapter_one
join:2002-02-16
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said by O Anrai:
There is a question about TT2002 installing spyware/malware. This thread has additional information, »SafeCast ?. Has anyone else out had any recent experience with TT2002, and do you have any thoughts on this matter, or any additional information on the inclusion of c_dilla in this package.
I've been following this thread with much interest since I have been also using TurboTax since it seems like forever.

I'm running a Win 98SE and decided to give it a go to see what I ended up with. Since the program was received from Intuit it was already registered and they supplied the product key with the package.

Installation was non-eventfull and the confirmation and internet hand shake was made.

After briefly looking around the program and downloading last years information I closed out and went hunting.

First I looked to see if any program(s) was/were running that I wasn't expecting. Couldn't find anything out of the ordinary. I have located, however, a C_DILLA folder with a hidden folder called SafeCast Product Licences in which there was an 8K .DAT file. No idea what's in it cause I don't have anything that will translate all that jibberish.

In the Windows directory I found the CDAC13BA.EXE that has been mentioned.

I've used StartCop to see if anything was added to the StartUp, SpyBot S&D to see if it picked anything up and the three-finger salute to see if it was running but, as I said, I can account for all of the stuff in there. No alerts from ZA after the initial request on the registration cycle.

I don't know what else to expect but thought I'd include what I encountered and will continue to follow this thread with much interest.

Thanks for the heads up.
Ron

Doctor Four
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Has anyone confirmed whether this copy protection spyware
in fact does what some have claimed: that it prevents the
use of a CDRW drive for burning discs (with Nero or a
similar program) and also logs all your downloaded files?
gatzdon
join:2002-10-25
Lake Zurich, IL

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I will admit that I have not been able to verify it, but it sounds like a promotional disc can be obtained for free. Is the C-dilla only on store bought discs, or is it on all of them.

But I will say this, I have been to the Vendors Website,

»www.macrovision.com/solu ··· dex.php3

and comments like "Transparent to end users" among others imply unauthorized alterations to the computer configuration. I saw in one article (»www.privacyandspying.com ··· lla.html) that someone did post a copy of it to GRC.com to ask if it should be considered spyware, but I didn't see anything on it there.

Any thoughts, I sure would like to hear something concrete before I buy TT2002 this year.

mikeky
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Just as an addition, Turbo Tax Business 2002 also adds this. I might accept their need for copy protection, but it doesn't need to start as a service unless TT is running.
jsouth
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This is the same copyprotection scheme as the game Morrowwind Has. It slowed down the game so much there was a patch released disabling it. I haven't looked for one on the companies web site. I know for a fact though that the protection doesn't do them a bit of good. The product has already been hacked and is available for free. LOL

O Anrai
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join:2000-07-23
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In response to my letter to Intuit's CEO, Stephen Bennett, of December 17, 2002, I received two phone calls from Intuit on 12/31/02, one from Mr. Bennett's office, and one from their Technical Department. The explanation I received is that this is their effort to protect their software product. They also indicated they are aware of the complaints but that it was unlikely they could do anything to correct the situation for this software year. I explained that I had absolutely no difficulty with the concept of protecting their intellectual property, but that I did have a problem with the installation of 'Safecast' without my knowledge or permission. They responded that it was covered under the license agreement, and I responded that it was not. I still contend that it is not referenced, or alluded to, in the license agreement in any constructive manner. Their technical department indicated they would look into the matter, apparently for future releases. I made it clear that I had used Intuit products for more years than I can recall, and actions such as this would cause me to look elsewhere, I'm currently taking a look at Money 2003. I closed my discussion with Intuit by indicating that a fix that would close the cdilla process when I closed TT2002 would be acceptable, that I didn't want the process running on my computer indefinitely, where I had to close it each time manually. For the 2002 tax year I'm probably locked in to Quicken and TT, for the future I'll be looking at my options, based on Intuit's response to the issue. The latest updates to SpybotS&D currently flag cdilla as spyware, for the moment I'll ignore it and leave it in place, but when my 02 taxes are complete, I'll strip cdilla and TT02 off my hard drive and scrub my registry to boot. Finally, there is no indication on my box that cdilla is restricting cd/rw, what little I've done has completed without any problem. In closing, Intuit - I do appreciate the response I received, now the balls in your court to rectify what many of us perceive as a problem.

Lex Luthor
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Great work O Anrai. Frustrating I agree. While companies have every right to protect their software, they do not have the right to take over my pc.

If after using and uninstalling turbotax, does removing "safecast shared components" from the add/remove dialog get rid of c_dilla?