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AJuan
Anon Juan
Premium
join:2002-08-14
Miami, FL
clubs: 
| reply to Authority
Re: Vonage vs. iConnecthere
VonageWannaBe,
Interesting points all.
VoIP issues:
- Agreed: they do both use the same technology.
Service Issues:
- I think that the major issue raised with iConnecthere is support?
Cost Issues:
- I would agree with you that for anyone planning on using VoIP for the long haul is better off buying their own ATA box and then signing up with whichever service provider they want. Excellent suggestion.
- The answer to which service provider to select is really an issue of individual calling patterns, technical competence and willingness to "work" to get things setup, or not. I would dare to say that any math anyone provides here doesn't prove one service better than the other; merely a lower cost of one based on their needs.
- Let me say it; Vonage is by far not the cheapest VoIP provider unless you spend '000s of minutes on the phone each month; so we can all agree on that.  They are one of the cheapest phone service providers!
Vonage Referrals:
- Please, can we leave the sweeping assumptions behind? There are a number of us, referrals aside, that actually believe in the product. I am quite sure that anyone who takes the effort to read more than a few posts in this forum will be able to differentiate between the informed positions and the "marketeers". For me, the pre-configured box is the reason I would order and send a Vonage box to my parents, but wouldn't send them an empty box and ask them to configure it.
- Domains, etc: Could we leave the personal attacks out of this forum? Some people work with the web for a living, through promoting products and services. It's an honest living, and in this particular case it helps to promote a VoIP service to the masses. I would have thought we could all agree that is a good thing? Maybe eventually.
Seasons greetings all!
--
AnonJuan
Get your instant $40 credit before you sign up with Vonage | |
Sparky12
join:2000-02-27
Nokomis, FL
| Very well said Anon. You touched on all those points perfectly, and before I even had a chance to toss in 1 cent, let alone 2.
Now go to bed! A little birdy told me you were up real early
Sparky | |
LameDuck
@Dial1.Detr
| reply to Authority
I still don't have a broadband connection so I'm not a Vonage customer, nor am I making any money on referrals, nor do I personally know anyone who is. That said, I believe that for the average (non-techie) phone user, Vonage has some clear advantages.
For one thing, if you REALLY want to see the difference, ask your mother or father (or, if you are over 50, a sibling or non-techie friend that is about your age) to sit down in front of your computer and go through the steps of ordering phone service, first at iConnecthere's site and then at Vonage's. Ask them to act as though they might really be interested in ordering the service for their own personal use (that is, don't just click on the first thing they see). Obviously you'll want to stop them at whatever point they're required to give valid personal information, but when you get to that point, ask if they've received enough information to make an informed decision. Don't help them make selections, but write down everything they click on (if you have a video camera, point it at the screen so you can watch the tape and make notes later). This is the sort of research that ANY company that wants to do business on the web should do.
In my opinion, iConnecthere's site is a case study in how NOT to construct a web site that is designed to induce people to order. For example, let's say I want to have the equivalent of phone service provided over my Internet connection. Do I click on "Make Calls", "Receive Calls", or "Broadband"? And it just gets more confusing from there. No matter which way I go, I get presented with a bunch of options, things to read, and so on. Now, personally, I find this all very interesting, although it would be nice if there were more information on fewer pages, but put your mom or dad in front of this and I suspect you're going to see them say, "Okay, what the [insert expletive of choice] am I supposed to click on now?" - or - "How did I wind up here and how do I get back to that other page?"
Vonage understands two cardinal rules of marketing - 1) Don't confuse the customer. 2) Give the customer options, but not too many (too many options violate #1). Or at the very least, feature your most popular options up front.
iConnecthere's site violates another rule of marketing - anticipate customer questions, and have an answer ready. ANY customer that wants to get incoming calls is going to want to know, PRIOR to starting the order process, whether they can get a number in their own area code (or whatever area they're interested in receiving calls from). If that information is on their site, it's certainly well-buried (again, I'm speaking as someone who wants this information BEFORE starting the order process).
Vonage basically gives you two choices (actually four, but you probably already know if you're a business or residential customer, so that isn't really as much a choice as a selection, like saying male or female in another type of application). Do you want the unlimited plan, or the one that limits you to a certain number of minutes?
Now this is a lot smarter than is sounds, because you have to think of WHY a customer would switch to Vonage. And I submit to you that saving money is NOT necessarily the most important reason. Well, in one way it is, but here is what the customer - almost all customers - REALLY want. They want to get a GOOD price with a minimum amount of hassle.
In this particular case, those two things are closely intertwined. The biggest hassle a customer has with the incumbent phone company is figuring out their bill! Now here comes a company that says, you pay us $40 a month and we won't hit you with any strange charges or fees that make no sense to you, and you won't have to pay extra for "custom calling features" and you won't have to select a "package" of features and you won't have to sit down every month and go over your bill with a magnifying glass to see if you are being charged for calls you didn't make (or, alternately, feel a bit guilty for not doing so).
And Vonage's web site, while perhaps not the absolute easiest to use on the web, certainly continues this theme. You are shown your options, you select one, you read about it and go from there. Want to know if your area code is available? It's on the web site.
Now, personally, I am willing to pay a premium for flat rate service. I always have been. I do not want to be on a meter. Just off the top of my head, I would easily pay $5 or $10 a month more to not have to deal with an itemized bill of calls I make, and to know that the amount I pay will be ALL I'll have to pay regardless of the number of calls I make. I'll never have to argue with some bozo in customer service who claims that I MUST have placed that six hour call to Nome, Alaska, that's mysteriously shown up on my bill, even though I don't know a soul who lives there. Not everyone feels that way, of course, and the difference in the two Vonage plans is closer to $15 so that would make me think twice if I were a low volume user. But even there, Vonage has the advantage in simplicity of ordering.
Let me put it this way: You go to Vonage's web site and you get the feeling that this is a company that wants customers, that wants to sell you its service. It could be improved (most sites could) but it doesn't throw up any big roadblocks in your way. If a friend called and asked you to set up service for him and you only had five minutes to do it, you could do it easily.
But iConnecthere's site looks like a business-to-business site, where the customer will deliberate over his options, consult with his accountant and maybe a technical adviser or two, and then reach a decision. Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating just a little, but that is the FEEL I get from their site. Too many options, no consumer-friendly ones. If someone told you to "order replacement phone service for me from iConnecthere" and you'd never been to their site before, there's no way you could do it in five minutes (well, maybe some people could, but I couldn't).
So in conclusion I think there are two things hurting iConnecthere:
1) Poorly designed web site - they really need to watch real people (not employees or other "geeks") trying to navigate it and make changes.
2) Lack of a simple flat rate option that covers both outgoing and incoming service. I know, I know, you'd rather pick your options ala carte. Well, so would I sometimes, but first of all the option I'd REALLY want isn't there (flat rate) and second, marketing study upon marketing study has proven that people really don't want too many choices (or more precisely, they want them only if they ask for them. Like holding the onions on a fast-food burger - it may not be explicitly offered but they will do it if you ask).
Anyway, I don't want to start a flame war so I will just say that these are my opinions, and I realize some have opposite opinions. But I will say that I would probably never even consider dumping my landline phone, which gives me unlimited local calling, for any VoIP service that doesn't at the very least give me unlimited calling within my own region, no matter how good the rate is on calls (well, unless you are going to give me a rate of a penny per HOUR, or something like that). | |
dconnor
Premium
join:2002-01-03
The Beach
clubs:
| reply to Authority
I find everyone’s statements in this thread interesting. Many are very valid. However, some of the comparisons that have been made are like apples and... carrots? Forget about oranges..., not even close.
I actively promote Vonage, for reasons I do not need to explain. However; I do love the product, or I would not promote it to the extent that I do.
I am not posting to bash another product or company. But that will become the final outcome of my statement.
I post as a telecom professional who has dealt with the companies mentioned in this thread on various levels; from multi-million dollar contracts, to being an end-user of the product.
D3 & Net2Phone are poorly funded companies. Period. Take that as you will.
Both D3 and Net2phone have released broadband VoIP products in the past that have failed, for various reasons. Neither company has released anything significant since then. They might have a web page, but they do not have a product (Hello FTC? Are you listening?).
Net2phone will be around tomorrow, as their will also be a market for their "now nostalgic, scream into the headset, VoIP product". For some people, that is a great product. I would guess, for most posters on this forum, it is a little dated... However, in certain parts of the world, it might be better quality and much less expensive than the public network. But far from what you and I would want to use as our main means of communications.
Tomorrow, D3 will still be trying to find itself. Everything is always "coming soon..."
--
Danhttp://www.vonage-promotion.com | |
spired
join:2002-09-30
japan
| As you're fishing for referrals I think your argument is flawed:
You're comparing two public companies (Deltathree/IConnectHere and Net2Phone) with an 8 month old startup. By looking at the financials of DeltaThree and Net2Phone you can see that they both have sufficient cash ($64M for net2phone and $21M for Deltathree at last reporting) to survive for the short term with the last reported operating losses at about $3m/quarter for Deltathree and $18m/quarter for Net2Phone. Neither company looks particularly healthy but Iconnecthere at least looks it still can afford to keep going for a couple years. With Vonage, the company is privately held. You can't see how much cash they have, you can't see who all of the officers are, how much they promised their financiers they'd be able to pull in before they get shut down, etc. etc. Unless you have information you're willing to post, it's hard to believe your argument.
Now granted there are by all measures 'well-funded' telecos like Global Crossing and Worldcom which have shown their spots.
Vonage has definately made a splash as far as getting PR from Time Magazine and the such, but the same could be said for Net2Phone, Dialpad and Go2Call in the days when they thought they could make money off of advertising alone.
Back to the topic, has anyone tried IConnecthere through the soft-phone rather than an ATA186? I'm interested in taking my phone number with me without carrying around the Cisco box in addition to my laptop.
Spired | |
VonageWannaBE
@verizon.net
| reply to dconnor
Well - nothing personal - but the people whom I referred in my post have already jumped in this forum..
I don't have much to add as by now I guess a person can make an informed decision by reading the foruma nd visiting both web sites...just 3 quick responses:
1. There web site does not have "Comming soon .." anymore .. and I mentioned the same in my previous post that this thread was started long ago and things have changed.
2. Ease of use and what would I suggest people over 50 to use ??...You have a live example of AOL.. will you ever use it or suggest anyone else to use AOL just because its ease of use ? and common guys all the configurations are on just ONE page - which is accesible from the browser and you just have to fill in 6-7 fields in that. anyone who can manage there broadband connection and the router connected to it can change those settings..you don't have to change them everyday.
3. I don't use net2phone for the same reason as Vonage - (I have less control on codecs etc)..BUT just wanted to mention that net2phone is NOT a poorly funded company. AT&T has 30% share in net2phone..and this is exactly my point that people are posting WRONG information here to get Vonage referral money. | |
VonageWannaBE
@verizon.net
| reply to spired
Yes, I have used iConnectHere with both softphone and with ATA186.. the softphone quality cannot be compared with ATA quality. Specially on a lower band width. If you have access to atleast true 56K and a good headset, the softphone will work just fine. | |
Cyber2lz
join:2001-11-15
Odessa, FL
| reply to Authority
Agreed AnonJuan,
I don't care about Marketecture!!! I am interested in THE service. The pandering and solicitation on this board are to the point that I am surprised the Mod hasn't warned already.
I believe that I am technically savvy enough to overcome most of the problems with the setup and configuration. If that's not the case, then this technology is not ready for the masses, ..........yet. My ONLY concern is the quality of the service and WHAT happens if, and when, I have a problem that is not on my side of the fence! I am going to try both vendors. Since the CPE is the same, the only differentiation is the SERVICE. Agreed?!?!?!
My motivation is completely different than the rest of the board's. I WANT to cut my ties to the Telecom Beast that consumes but does not service. Hell, they're probably using VoIP after they have the call captured in their network anyway!!!
--
If you're not livin' on the edge, you're takin' up too much space ! | |
dconnor
Premium
join:2002-01-03
The Beach
clubs:
| reply to VonageWannaBE
said by VonageWannaBE:
...BUT just wanted to mention that net2phone is NOT a poorly funded company. AT&T has 30% share in net2phone..
Their burn rate is huge. History will show you that AT&T's presence in a company is no indication of corporate stability. They can and have disbanded entire companies/divisions over night.
--
Danhttp://www.vonage-promotion.com | |
VonageWannaBE
@ibm.com | Well, history of your postings on this web site has showed me not to believe anything that you post on this board. It is a one way road for you. | |
dconnor
Premium
join:2002-01-03
The Beach
clubs:
| I think it has more to do with "been there, done that" with both D3 and IDT, Net2phones former parent. They both burned me twice, once professionally, and once as a customer, each.
I find it hard to give them any credit going forward.
--
Danhttp://www.vonage-promotion.com | |
LameDuck
@Dial1.Det
| reply to VonageWannaBE
>2. Ease of use and what would I suggest people over
>50 to use ??...You have a live example of AOL.. will
>you ever use it or suggest anyone else to use AOL
>just because its ease of use ? and common guys all
>the configurations are on just ONE page - which is
>accesible from the browser and you just have to fill
>in 6-7 fields in that. anyone who can manage there
>broadband connection and the router connected to it
>can change those settings..you don't have to change
>them everyday.
Personally I would not recommend AOL to anyone, but in a way they prove my point. Everyone who knows anything about the Internet knows that you're not getting a direct connection to the Internet when you go through AOL, and no 'net administrator would touch AOL with a ten meter pole. But what is AOL's big selling point? Ease of use. You insert their CD and away you go.
Now, what would happen if people who received an AOL CD in the mail inserted it and were immediately confronted with a bunch of confusing options, and had to navigate through several screens to find the information they really wanted? It's not to hard to imagine that the response rate would fall dramatically.
Or, what if the only option that AOL offered was a pay-by-the-minute plan? In the early days, that's all they offered, and the flat rate ISP's came along and ate their lunch. That's why they switched to a flat rate plan, and have never looked back.
It's funny how people ignore the reality that in ANY situation where there are flat rate offerings and metered offerings, and everything else is equal, most people choose the flat rate offering. That's especially true with regard to local telephone service - the incumbent phone companies have tried to push "message unit" service for years and outside of New York City, they have been largely unsuccessful. MCI's "The Neighborhood" service has had an unexpected tremendous response, despite all the bad press that MCI and Worldcom have received. If AT&T had made a similar offering (at a similar price), they'd have probably had to beat customers off with a stick.
I don't mind that you post about other services - as I say, I'm not getting a referral or anything from Vonage. But ranking the services with the criteria I consider important - flat rate, ease of signing up, easy availability of information on the web site, not having to pay up front for equipment, good price, availability of extra features (without paying extra), and easy way to pay (preferably without the need for a credit card), Vonage probably gets a solid B (would be higher if they accepted payment in advance by check, like all other "real" phone companies). But in my ranking system, iConnecthere would get maybe a D or a C- (primarily because of their web site, the lack of a flat rate offering, and the necessity to buy the equipment up front if you want to use regular phones), and the others wouldn't even be in the ranking. If another company comes along that would rank higher on my scale, I certainly want to know about it!
You may rank differently and that's fine. Note I have not factored in call quality at all, because I have not had the opportunity to actually test these services - I'm ranking as a potential customer, not as an actual user. I really doubt there's that much difference between the services.
By the way, could we please avoid the personal attacks? My personal belief is that most of the folks who are speaking in favor of Vonage are probably actual customers who wouldn't stick with the service if it were lousy. But having subscribed, they certainly aren't going to turn down a referral credit when they can get one. At the same time, we have no way of knowing what interest you (or anyone else) might have in the services they favor. This isn't a religious argument (or at least it shouldn't be) and there is no reason to resort to personal slurs and ad hominem attacks. | |
VonageWannaBE
@ibm.com
 from:
ITTOLEDO 
Authority
| reply to dconnor
OKay - i have been avoiding this personalized message for a long time, but I guess I have to say it now:
I think it has more to do with your full time affiliation with Vonage. In my view, it creates "Conflict of Interest". If i am not wrong, you own atleast the following sites:
»www.vonage-promotion.com/
»www.vonage-referral.com/
»www.vonage-credit.com/
»www.vonage-discount.com/
»www.vonage-refer-yourself.com/
»www.vonage-refer-a-friend.com/
»www.daniel-connor.com/
»www.connor-family.net/
»www.soniaconnor.com/
»www.audreysalgado.com/
»www.katherinereina.com/
»www.brandonconnor.com/
»www.natalieconnor.com/
.. .I can go on ...
You have several Vonage referral IDs which are incorporated in each link that you post here, and you do post the same links again & again - one of which is 27400178.
sole purpose of all these sites (and your posts in this thread) is to earn a referral from Vonage. This makes you more than a regular vonage user, who is also referring the good service to friends.This makes you a business partner of Vonage and clearly creates a conflict of interest.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT VONAGE IS BAD - I AM JUST ASKING THAT YOU KEEP THIS FORUM HEALTHY AND POST SOME SENSIBLE POSTS IF YOU REALLY WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION, AND LET PEOPLE MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION BASED ON WHAT THEY NEED, AS EVERY SERVICE HAS ITS PLUS AND MINUSES. If you wish to repspond - you can - I will not post a followup in this thread atleast not something which is not related to VOIP. | |
LameDuck
@Dial1.Det
| >OKay - i have been avoiding this personalized message
>for a long time, but I guess I have to say it now:
>I think it has more to do with your full time
>affiliation with Vonage. In my view, it creates
>"Conflict of Interest". If i am not wrong, you own
>atleast the following sites:
[list deleted]
Since you didn't quote the message you were responding to, I will just say that if you were replying to me, you're dead wrong. I own NONE of those domains.
But having said that, I don't get what you think is so evil about someone owning several domains. I own none personally, but I have several friends that have registered multiple domains (no, NOT any of those you mentioned). There's no law or rule that says "one to a customer", you know! Of all the things to make an issue of, this seems like a gigantic non-issue to me. | |
VonawannaBE
@ibm.com | LameDuck - I was not responding to you. | |
GeekJedi
RF is Good For You
Premium
join:2001-06-21
Mukwonago, WI
clubs:
 ·CenturyLink
 ·VOIPo
·Vonage
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Authority
Although I do kind of take issue with someone making a site look "official" (and not mentioning that they have nothing to do officially with Vonage, just that they are collecting a $40 per pop) it really is none of my business.
dconnor has added other POV's on this board other than Vonage, and has even offered help for various things. His posts are helpful, and valuable to the board. I can separate the wheat from the chaff, and know when to turn on the BS filter.
Having said that, Vonage is a great service. I would recommend it, and have done so for friends. I haven't tried other services, but for what I want, it's perfect.
Yep, getting referral credit here and there is nice, but I certainly am not looking to get free service for life. I would much rather pay real cash for the service than get it for free and see them go away. Again, personal preference.
Bottom line, there are a lot of Vonage users hawking referrals...why not? They have all brought other things to the table, and if they get a referral, so be it.
--
The goal of the broadcast engineer is to get all the meters on the transmitter to go as far to the right as possible!! | |
claudeo
join:2000-02-23
Redmond, WA
| reply to LameDuck
Lameduck states: (snip)...Now here comes a company that says, you pay us $40 a month and we won't hit you with any strange charges or fees that make no sense to you...(snip)
I'm not sure about that. I almost signed up for Vonage but then I read the TOS -- which is a binding contract -- that states that "Customer is responsible for paying all charges posted to its account, including but not limited to, monthly Service, subscription fee, usage charges, advanced feature charges, Device charges, shipping, and others. Charges, including disputed amounts, must be paid by the date shown on the invoice." followed by some threatening language along the lines of "pay first, or else." -- Note that nowhere in the TOS does it state what those "other" charges can be, or that the only charges will be those stated in the plan description. I understand that this kind of language used by all kinds of service providers, not just Vonage, but let us not be blindsided here. While the Vonage team now appears to be a bunch of very nice people, the contract remains in force even if some scumbag company buys them out and decides to fleece the customers by tacking on new fees and running with that. The same TOS states that even if you cancel within the 5 days after email notification of changes of service (such a notification can easily be formulated as an email that will get discarded by most spam filters) you are liable for everything that was billed, plus termination fees -- which can also be changed at any time, BTW.
Paranoid, me? No way. Just been fleeced once too many.
[text was edited by author 2002-12-19 16:06:42] | |
LameDuck
@Dial1.Det
| Valid point, claudeo. I do wish these companies would not let their lawyers write these ToS agreements without subjecting them to a sanity check first. Language like that does scare potential customers away!
(What worse yet is when a company insists you agreed to something like that when you know you didn't, simply because they NOW include some language in their terms of service. When do consumers get some rights?) | |
LameDuck
@Dial1.Det | P.S. I meant the ToS language should be subjected to a sanity check, not the lawyers! | |
Cyber2lz
join:2001-11-15
Odessa, FL
| reply to Authority
Hey guys,
I don't know if this is important, but I just did a comparison between the rates of both companies, V & I.
You might be surprised at my findings!!!!!
V doesn't come off so good.
Just some unbiased research of their posted rates!
--
If you're not livin' on the edge, you're takin' up too much space ! | |
|
