Redback question about static ips

Author	All Replies
chris123 join:2002-07-23 Highland, IN	Redback question about static ips I have a design question I'm not sure anyone here will be able to help me with. I read up on what little information I could find about Redback platforms. It appears Redbacks will support bridging and routing, so I was wondering if anyone knew why Ameritech would choose to use dynamic addressing over statics. A bunch of people are choosing services based on static address availability within the normal pricing range. Obviously if the end user does not know the difference between a static and dynamic then it wouldn't hurt to have a static but for the people who know they want static addressing. I'm curious if anyone knows why providers would use dynamic addressing when static addressing could add to their market share. From my point of view there would be little difference in costs for choosing between the two. Also I doubt there are problems with a shortage of public address space, any longer. I'm wondering what the underlying reason is, obviously there must be a good reason seeing how many providers only provide dynamics in their basic packages. Thanks
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 03:29:39 ·
tadmaz join:2002-05-30 Mount Prospect, IL	I agree, static's shouldn't cost more in theory, but then again, SBC is all run by greedy super rich officials right? There's your answer. runs away and hides
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 09:56:02 ·
jay6082 join:2002-10-16 Crown Point, IN	reply to chris123 Because it is easier to have a DHCP server and set a experation time for that IP block. It's easier to maintain. I do agree though that statics should not cost more, especially since there is a 200 dollar installation fee, plus the cost of the router 384 or something like that. Statics should cost as much as the dynamics.
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 10:20:07 ·
horist Premium join:2001-12-28 Wauconda, IL	reply to chris123 I'm guessing Ameritech uses DHCP for the same reasons any large company will generally use it internally (or at least the ones I've worked at). It involves alot of record keeping to use nothing but static IPs. Plus say Atech has a total of 100 IP addresses (i know they have more but just for example). If they only used static then they could only have a maximum of 100 customers. Plus as people leave and join their IP address needs to be maintained, released, etc... whereas with DHCP, you just get an IP address, if you disconnect or turn your PC off at night the IP is released and someone else can use it, so you can potentionally have more customers even though you don't have enough IP addresses. Plus most people don't need a static IP address, and thanks to services such as dynip.com you can run sites even if you have a dynamic IP. For those that do want a static IP Atech offers the business packages (I'm paying extra for 5 statics). I administered a small network (under 100 computers) a while back, and was part of a team that moved the network from static to dynamic addressing. In the end it involves less man hours/maintenance to have the same end result (each computer gets an IP address) so it's more efficient.
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 11:01:17 ·
Corona It's cool, I'm takin it back Premium join:2000-03-14 Aubrey, TX	reply to chris123 I'm sure DSLKIA could shed some light
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 12:04:31 ·
Dennis Premium,Mod join:2001-01-26 Algonquin, IL ·AT&T Yahoo Host: Chicago Users Find Hot Deals Users find Hot Dea.. Requests for Hot D.. Home Repair & Impr..	Actually Horist pretty much hit the nail on the head. Plus one other factor. If every customer had static IP's, that would mean that each customer would have to be provisioned to a specific Redback (that has the IP block configured on it). In West, Central, and SNET that isn't an issue, but here in Ameritech where we have L2TP tunnels spread out across the LATA (chicago land area for example) that would become a micro managment nightmare. But the main point is as Horist said, DHCP is just simplier to manage, especially when your talking about thousands of customers. -- If its a "penny for your thoughts" and I just gave you my $.02....then where's my change?
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 12:45:49 ·
chris123 join:2002-07-23 Highland, IN	reply to horist said by horist : I'm guessing Ameritech uses DHCP for the same reasons any large company will generally use it internally (or at least the ones I've worked at). It involves alot of record keeping to use nothing but static IPs. Ok maybe. If they made static assignments on their dhcp server the work load would be very comparable. quote: Plus say Atech has a total of 100 IP addresses (i know they have more but just for example). If they only used static then they could only have a maximum of 100 customers. I haven't heard of anyone lately having trouble getting as many addresses as they need. quote: Plus most people don't need a static IP address, and thanks to services such as dynip.com you can run sites even if you have a dynamic IP. For those that do want a static IP Atech offers the business packages (I'm paying extra for 5 statics). Some hardware dosen't support dns. Many vpn products for instance. I'm not complaining that they don't offer statics. I was asking a back-end technical question. If the hardware supports it, and overhead is negotiable, why not use statics? quote: I administered a small network (under 100 computers) a while back, and was part of a team that moved the network from static to dynamic addressing. In the end it involves less man hours/maintenance to have the same end result (each computer gets an IP address) so it's more efficient. Thats different there would be no advantage to using statics on a lan for clients. I agree with you here and would never run a lan with 10+ clients on anything but dhcp. [text was edited by author 2003-01-01 13:50:05]
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 13:46:07 ·
schja01 I need to get a life. Premium,MVM join:2000-04-27 Morton Grove, IL clubs: ·AT&T U-Verse ·AT&T Midwest	reply to Dennis Re: Redback question about static ips said by Dennis : DHCP is just simplier to manage No, Ameritech is just being good netizens and trying to conserve the remaining IP addresspace. Believe that and I have a bridge in Brooklyn ... James -- Damn the Torpedoes, Full Speed Ahead !
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 14:14:53 ·
Dennis Premium,Mod join:2001-01-26 Algonquin, IL ·AT&T Yahoo Host: Chicago Users Find Hot Deals Users find Hot Dea.. Requests for Hot D.. Home Repair & Impr..	As an additional comment: DHCP was really popular during Dialup days, because since nobody stayed on 24x7 you would really get about 5:1 ratios on customers using IP's. That meant (depending on customer load) you could only ask ARIN for 100 IP's and still service 500 customers. A big bonus for smaller ISP's who had to justify /B's. Now with DSL its usually on 24x7 (mine is, and I use DHCP not static generally). However a lot of people don't leave there DSL on all the time, so you still can get more use out of a DHCP pool than if the customers had all statics, although no where near a 5:1 ratio. Now let say for example that every customer had a static IP address tied to them for use. Well in Ameritech that would mean you have to log onto your specific Rback every time or else your IP interface wouldn't exist (a log error we see often when static customers don't use "@static_" or "static.sbcglobal.net"). So for chicago that would mean you'd have: username@static1.sbcglobal.net thru username@static13.sbcglobal.net And depending on what IP you have you'd have to have the appropriate number. Also if you upgraded your IP's you'd have to change your name to the appropriate Redback #. And what happens if we add more redbacks? You'd have to track each individual user and let them know to change their username. You'd also have to do the same if we moved a tunnel (something we have to do to maintain the L2TP tunnel load). Also, since ASI controls the LAC side of the L2TP tunnel we can't limit sessions, that's why we keep playing musical L2TP tunnel chairs. So let's say we move 1 tunnel of 3 thousand users to a new redback14.....thats 3 thousand customer that have to change their username or they will stop working. Not to mention in order to make the whole system work by using domain name filtering on ASI's LAC side, we'd have to have each LNS Rback (Ameritech redback's) maintain an open L2TP tunnel to every LAC (ASI redbacks)......on each OC3 interface. Thats easily every redback having to maintain 30 L2TP tunnels to every LAC.....shudder. Right now the only redback that does that is Rback1...the static rback. Imagine what would happen if we had 13 of them? The downtime would go thru the roof because the L2TP process would stress the Rback's like nobody's business. And trust me, getting a 30 L2TP tunnel rback to come back up after a crash is not the most pleasent thing to do. sigh my main point....its just easier, and somewhat of a habit from the day of Dialup. damn, this got long real quick:) -- If its a "penny for your thoughts" and I just gave you my $.02....then where's my change?
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 14:35:26 ·
chris123 join:2002-07-23 Highland, IN	reply to chris123 Thanks knowitall This is the kind of answer I'm looking for. This is really interesting to me, so I have a few more questions. If the goal was to reduce ip address space usage why not utilize things like 'ip unnumbered' on the cpe to co link and hand out addressing with a dhcp server to the ethernet interface, linking the ip to the modems mac address? Or if you wanted to stay with username to address allocation using radius but I don't see why that is necessary. From reading your post again it looks like DSL is not Point to Point as I originally thought. That likely answers why pppoe must be used. Where does l2tp come into play? Sounds to me like the connection between the place my dsl circuit terminates in the co and your internet pipe??? Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this stuff. Are there any books I could pick up to better understand this architecture?
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 18:26:03 ·
Corona It's cool, I'm takin it back Premium join:2000-03-14 Aubrey, TX	reply to chris123 CPE -to- DSLAM (or RT) -to- ATM Backhaul -to- ASI Redback Router -across- L2TP -to- ISP Redback Router -to- ISP Gateway. Right DSLKIA? Yup -DSLKIA -- Meetings: Where None of us is as dumb as All of us. :( [text was edited by moderator]
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 18:29:34 ·
DBordello join:2002-11-13 Barrington, IL	reply to chris123 If it is that complex then how does it happen now with the static user's? Wouldn't it be the same just on a larger scale? db
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 18:52:17 ·
schja01 I need to get a life. Premium,MVM join:2000-04-27 Morton Grove, IL clubs: ·AT&T U-Verse ·AT&T Midwest	reply to chris123 It's like my former boss once said: Why do something simple when you can make it wonderful and complex. James -- Damn the Torpedoes, Full Speed Ahead !
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 19:24:42 ·
Dennis Premium,Mod join:2001-01-26 Algonquin, IL ·AT&T Yahoo Host: Chicago Users Find Hot Deals Users find Hot Dea.. Requests for Hot D.. Home Repair & Impr..	said by schja01 : It's like my former boss once said: Why do something simple when you can make it wonderful and complex. Actually you can thank the FCC for making it complex like this in Ameritech. In other regions they don't have to contend with L2TP tunnels. We were forced to make ASI a seperate entity, and the L2TP tunnels are necessary to service multiple ISP's. -- If its a "penny for your thoughts" and I just gave you my $.02....then where's my change?
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 19:44:42 ·
Dennis Premium,Mod join:2001-01-26 Algonquin, IL ·AT&T Yahoo Host: Chicago Users Find Hot Deals Users find Hot Dea.. Requests for Hot D.. Home Repair & Impr..	reply to DBordello said by DBordello : If it is that complex then how does it happen now with the static user's? Wouldn't it be the same just on a larger scale? db Static users get directed by a process known as domain filtering. Basically the ASI rback (LAC) redirects the username to a predetermined rback based on the "@static_" or "@static.sbcglobal.net" part of the username. -- If its a "penny for your thoughts" and I just gave you my $.02....then where's my change?
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 19:46:24 ·
Dennis Premium,Mod join:2001-01-26 Algonquin, IL ·AT&T Yahoo Host: Chicago Users Find Hot Deals Users find Hot Dea.. Requests for Hot D.. Home Repair & Impr..	reply to chris123 said by chris123 : If the goal was to reduce ip address space usage why not utilize things like 'ip unnumbered' on the cpe to co link and hand out addressing with a dhcp server to the ethernet interface, linking the ip to the modems mac address? Or if you wanted to stay with username to address allocation using radius but I don't see why that is necessary. In my opinion the current configuration is much more robust and allows the E/U to utilize greater services (VPN, PtP sharing, etc). However the main reason its like this is simply because its just the way it was done. Its much simpler than having to maintain a MAC database quote: From reading your post again it looks like DSL is not Point to Point as I originally thought. That likely answers why pppoe must be used. DSL is PtP. PPPoE is just an authentication method, if SBC wanted to they could just use straight ATM (not authentication at all, like the old covad lines). But then you'd lose the ability to limit how many DHCP IP's a customer pulls. For example a 5260 can pull 14 different DHCP IP's. This would decimate the DHCP pools and increase IP use. Also you lose a lot of tracking abilities and the ability to assign things like Static IP's and DNS via radius (which is much more dynamic than having to notify 30 thousand people your changing a DNS ip) quote: Where does l2tp come into play? Sounds to me like the connection between the place my dsl circuit terminates in the co and your internet pipe??? Yes, the L2TP tunnel is an invisible (to the customer) ATM backhaul used to "port" all user traffic to Ameritech's Redbacks. Corona touched on where the tunnel was in his post. Honestly explaining it any more would require a whiteboard... quote: Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this stuff. Are there any books I could pick up to better understand this architecture? Well the only book i ever really read was DSL for dummies Most of this comes from having to do it or you get fired...sorry. -- If its a "penny for your thoughts" and I just gave you my $.02....then where's my change?
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 19:56:26 ·
DBordello join:2002-11-13 Barrington, IL	reply to chris123 Thanks for the explanation. I also wouldn't mind a book based on how SBC has it all setup etc. How it gets from the CPE to the Internet. db
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-01 20:55:27 ·
chris123 join:2002-07-23 Highland, IN	reply to Dennis quote: Yes, the L2TP tunnel is an invisible (to the customer) ATM backhaul used to "port" all user traffic to Ameritech's Redbacks. Corona touched on where the tunnel was in his post. Honestly explaining it any more would require a whiteboard... So l2tp was just used as a common technology allowing other carriers to connect to the place where dsl terminates(dslam??)
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-02 00:43:24 ·
Dennis Premium,Mod join:2001-01-26 Algonquin, IL ·AT&T Yahoo Host: Chicago Users Find Hot Deals Users find Hot Dea.. Requests for Hot D.. Home Repair & Impr..	No, L2TP is just a generic method of creating "pipes" over ATM between multiple pieces of equipment using the same ATM interface (ex. OC3). -- If its a "penny for your thoughts" and I just gave you my $.02....then where's my change?
	to forum · permalink · · 2003-01-02 00:56:51 ·


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