dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
16893
share rss forum feed


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

I just recently got covad telesoho for a little over a week now. Well I was have sync issues so I was put in safe mode and got noise margins of 10/16. Well I was talking to Zyxel about some other stuff and they told me about a new firmware one higher then what I had.

They emailed me the software and I updated my 643. Well my noise margins increased to 13.5/17. One other user has tried this today and his noise margins increased. I can't remember if it was similar increase or not. I will let him chime in here.

I thought this was some good info to pass along.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
GDM, did you know you'd wet my appetite on this?

I'm probably more than 2db away from being able to go back to FastPath (not SafeMode) but you never know. I'll probably call ZyXEL for the first time and see if such a thing exists for my P645's chipset (I imagine this is a factor). Anyone know?


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
Bill I think this is a major thing that should be brought up. We are have been having heavy rains off and on all day today. I left and came back modem couldn't sync for more then 30 seconds in fastpath with 8.5-9/14 for noise margins. Covad reprovisioned it and still nothing. Put be back in safe mode and running 14/18. Now I seem to maybe have a bare wire somewhere. Before it started raining I was running fine in 7-9db down for fast path.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
Even without knowing exactly how noise margins are measured I'm sure it's hard to ever say there's some value that, when crossed, looses sync. The nature of the noise has to be a factor.

That said, water typically causes unbalance in the line. You may hear audible noise (usually "hum") on POTS. I had that for a while here a few years ago and I had to eventually predict rain, make a service call, to catch a lineman when it was bad. A real pain but eventually got it.


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
It has been suggested maybe the NID isn't sealed good. When I did sync for those 30 seconds tonight at 8.5db they saw tons of errors. So now I will have to sit and wait to see where we go from here.

Every time the modem retrained it did full sync 1536/384. I got to tell you loved being at the because my pings were 31ms to yahoo, dslreports, etc.


Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH
kudos:2
I only suggested that because it's the only one you can "control" of affect. See that drop going from your house to the pole, or that connection at the pole ?? They could be allowing water in and you can do NOTHING about those.

As for Safe Mode, you could live with it. Just ask Bill_MI.
--
-= Mindspring MaxDSL via Covad 1536/384 TeleSurfer Pro =-


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
I know but once you have a taste of full you just don't want to give it up. I am going to check the NID in a little bit and scheduled SBC to come out and check the boxes. Thanks Hall!!!!!


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
reply to Hall
said by Hall:
As for Safe Mode, you could live with it. Just ask Bill_MI.
I still keep my ports open in case something comes up to get out of it. I may work in FastPath for days at a time - but too infrequently to stay there.

I'm suspicious firmware can help noise margins very much - readings change quite regularly here (which is why I have about a YEAR of noise values to compare! Remember my graph chart? ). I'd sure like to be solid in FastPath (sigh).

GDM, was this firmware upgrade specifically for connection enhancement or more like a suggestion?


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
Bill,

The reason I got the firmware was because of the 643 not saving that MTU command in the autoexec.net. When I upgraded the firmware that didn't help but the noise margins increased. They did not tell me what the fixes were but it has stabled my line much more even in safe mode.

Before I upgraded the firmware my noise margins would start out around 9-10 in safe mode on the downside. Some mornings when I woke up it would be anywhere from 0-5db with no explanation from Covad. Once the firmware was updated I average 12-14db on the down now.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

Very little except that copper line between you and the central office affects noise margin. I'm speculating from my background when I say the chipset in the modems is probably not a part of a ZyXEL firmware upgrade and that chipset pretty much determines performance, noise susceptibility, etc.

But like I said... I keep an ear out for things like "long reach" options that might have a shot at getting me solid in FastPath. Technology does improve and there's a real drive to squeeze ADSL performance (SafeMode a typical example that probably didn't exist in 1997 when I first discovered this problem and solved it... sort of ).

I've considered getting a different modem just to try it - but such data is hard to find. I can bet the farm modems cannot be created equal, even within the same model, when talking about the fringe of performance. But heck, I'm not going to try 50 of them. LOL!
[text was edited by author 2003-04-05 11:30:00]


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Bill, I think it would be worth a shot to call zyxel and ask them what the curren firmware for the 645 is. It won't hurt to upgrade.:)

ccarlin

join:2000-12-28
Deerfield, IL
Well I was the other one that tried this and my margins definitely increased. My downstream went from 6.5 (right before upgrading) to 9.5 and is currently at 11.5.

I have been up for 20 hours straight since doing this. I will wait and see how well it works on an evening during the week when I typically can't hold sync.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
FastPath or SafeMode?

I just reviewed the first 5 days of April and I'm averaging 10db noise margin downstream (my limiting factor). But the lowest was 6.5 and highest 11.5. Those 6.5 times kill me FastPath yet stay solid SafeMode.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
reply to gdm
ZyXEL isn't available 'til Monday but I'm looking at some updated f/w for my P645. Can either or both of you tell me what you have in menu 24.2.1? It should look like this:

ZyNOS S/W Version: V2.50(EK.3) | 8/31/2001
ADSL Chipset Vendor: Alcatel, Version 3.8.124

I found:
ZyNOS F/W Version : V2.50(EK.4) | 9/19/2002


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse

Bill,

Here you go

ZyNOS F/W Version: V2.50(AY.4) | 11/08/2002
ADSL Chipset Vendor: Alcatel, Version 3.8.164
Standard: G.DMT

Interesting enough I was doing some digging on Covad's SMART account manager. You can actually get the new firmware for 643 from the covad site. Which is the only place I have seen this.

From the smart manager account

"This file is a firmware upgrade for the ZyXEL Prestige 643 ADSL Router that comes standard with all TeleSoho orders. The TeleSoho firmware upgrade is necessary for some TeleSoho customers that are trying to
1. Change their IP configuration from 1 IP address with NAT to 5 static IP addresses
2. Connect to XBox Live or other online gaming sites."

Bill do you have the 1.5/384 or 1.5/128 via EL? If you are on 1.5/384 how come EL users don't have the 643 out of curiosity?
[text was edited by author 2003-04-06 01:04:00]


Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH
kudos:2
EL ships whatever they have in stock and whatever works. I've got a "special" 642M myself.
--
-= Mindspring MaxDSL via Covad 1536/384 TeleSurfer Pro =-


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

reply to gdm
said by gdm:
Bill do you have the 1.5/384 or 1.5/128 via EL? If you are on 1.5/384 how come EL users don't have the 643 out of curiosity?
Thanks for the info. Hall covered the modems pretty well . I have the 1.5/384 service which is why my SafeMode is 928/384. It's also why I keep my ears open for ways to actually get 1.5m.

BTW, several people around the time I signed up got these "P645" modems from Earthlink. There is no plain-old "P645". Only further research found it to be a P645M-11 (or darn close). I determined this by getting the f/w off the unit and comparing it to f/w on the ZyXEL site - and got a byte-by-byte match! There isn't a lot of desire for ZyXEL or Earthlink to make these custom-ISP models well documented.

EDIT: Notice how your Alcatel Version is 3.8.164? My P645 is 3.8.124. Chances are this refers to the DSP-based chips and/or microcode that actually do the phone line signal conditioning. This is golden info to someone about possible performance issues I'm looking for - finding such people has not been successful. This engineer would love to talk to another inside this technology. I'd run out and get a Bla-Bla model Bla if someone told me it was the most advanced for noise.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-06 15:24:33]


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·AT&T U-Verse
Bill,

I have to agree with you. Zyxel seems to lack good documentation. Also, I agree about the various 645 models. When I was looking for documentation (limited) on the 643 I couldn't believe the list of 645 models. Is it really necessary to have that many?

I must tell you I like the fact I can see the noise margins myself. Other then that I really don't care.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
Well, GDM And CCarlin - you have the latest for Covad on the P643 - V2.50(AY.4). I found out Earthlink hasn't officially blessed the latest for my P645 (which I got online anyway) which is V2.50(EK.4).

But to the best of his knowledge, no ADSL parameters are invloved in these upgrades. Two people claiming a few more db of noise margin is significant, though.

CCarlin - I'm really curious how your performance is on the new f/w. I may want to have a backup modem before attempting to FLASH my P645 - these ISP-unique versions make me nervous.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

reply to gdm
Well, I did it anyway. I'll have days of data for noise margins to compare.

Hey! Looky this...

was:
ZyNOS S/W Version: V2.50(EK.3) | 8/31/2001
ADSL Chipset Vendor: Alcatel, Version 3.8.124

now:
ZyNOS F/W Version: V2.50(EK.4) | 9/19/2002
ADSL Chipset Vendor: Alcatel, Version 3.8.164

A distinct Alcatel revision - maybe there is some microcode updated in the phone line stuff. At least I'm not down!

EDIT:
Holy Cow! It is definitely a jump in noise margin:

1/2 hour ago:
noise margin downstream: 10.0 db

now:
noise margin downstream: 13.5 db

But will it equate with stability in FastPath? A step in the right direction is indicated.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-07 20:37:34]


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Bill what's the noise margins?


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

Sorry, I edited after excitement! I have lots of noise margin data (every hour since last April... no kidding!).

I'll be able to plot noise margin (downstream is the limiting factor) for a week before and a week after, I hope.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-07 20:41:45]


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
reply to gdm
See something is up with this new firmware:) it's just not in my head:)


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

I was wondering if a forced re-train may have done that with noise margins anyway. Well, what poo-pooh's that theory is that 13.5db is the highest I've ever seen this month - so it just may be real.

EDIT: I log noise margin every hour and 11.5db was the April high.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-07 20:50:39]


gdm
Premium,MVM
join:2001-06-15
Mchenry, IL
kudos:3
Now remember bill in my case safe mode the highest I could get was 10db down and averaged 8db or lower. When I upgraded the highest I got was 14db and goes down to 12db. Usually it's around 13db most of the time.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

The question of the hour is if it equates to better noise performance (a.k.a less SYNC loss). For all we know something may have changed an arithmetic bug so the numbers change but performance doesn't. Remember... pessimists are NEVER disappointed.

EDIT: I'm inquiring in the ZyXEL forum.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-07 21:00:13]


Hall
Premium,MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH
kudos:2
One important thing you guys are overlooking. You see noise margins of 'x' and 'y' from your end. At the same time, what does Covad see on theirs ??
--
-= Mindspring MaxDSL via Covad 1536/384 TeleSurfer Pro =-


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..

Hall, the 2 numbers always compared but it's been a while since I heard the DSLAM end. The DSLAM has a set of parameters but they compared so exactly I always figured they exchange each other's numbers. Only the modem can measure signal-to-noise ratio received, the DSLAM cannot, right?

EDIT: Or do you mean upstream? Upstream has never been an issue here - is it anywhere? Upstream is the low-freq end and (in our case) the narrower bandwidth. My upstream noise margin never gets below 18 (but I'll watch that, too).
[text was edited by author 2003-04-07 22:01:31]

ccarlin

join:2000-12-28
Deerfield, IL
reply to Hall
Well Monday night and I have been up the whole time. That is a first for a weeknight in about a month or so.

Not sure if the firmware had anything to do with it but it certainly didn't hurt.

My downstream noise margin is currently only 10.0 but maybe it went down lower every evening and that was why I couldn't hold sync?

By the way I am in Safe Mode and have been for a while so 928 is tops for me. Which is fine since my distance dictates that I am lucky to get that. Speed tests are giving me a 776/326 rating.


Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WOW Internet and..
Here's 7 days of my Noise Margin Downstream. The very last 2 data points are since the f/w upgrade.
--
Expert Opinions: $10 ... I Shut Up: $20