Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

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« How do I measure noise margins with the Zyxel 643

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Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

I just recently got covad telesoho for a little over a week now. Well I was have sync issues so I was put in safe mode and got noise margins of 10/16. Well I was talking to Zyxel about some other stuff and they told me about a new firmware one higher then what I had.

They emailed me the software and I updated my 643. Well my noise margins increased to 13.5/17. One other user has tried this today and his noise margins increased. I can't remember if it was similar increase or not. I will let him chime in here.

I thought this was some good info to pass along.

permalink · 2003-04-04 21:43:59 · Print ·

Bill_MI Bill In Michigan Premium,MVM join:2001-01-03 Royal Oak, MI ·Comcast	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 GDM, did you know you'd wet my appetite on this? I'm probably more than 2db away from being able to go back to FastPath (not SafeMode) but you never know. I'll probably call ZyXEL for the first time and see if such a thing exists for my P645's chipset (I imagine this is a factor). Anyone know?
	permalink · 2003-04-04 22:45:11 ·

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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Bill I think this is a major thing that should be brought up. We are have been having heavy rains off and on all day today. I left and came back modem couldn't sync for more then 30 seconds in fastpath with 8.5-9/14 for noise margins. Covad reprovisioned it and still nothing. Put be back in safe mode and running 14/18. Now I seem to maybe have a bare wire somewhere. Before it started raining I was running fine in 7-9db down for fast path.

permalink · 2003-04-05 00:20:57 ·

Bill_MI
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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Even without knowing exactly how noise margins are measured I'm sure it's hard to ever say there's some value that, when crossed, looses sync. The nature of the noise has to be a factor.

That said, water typically causes unbalance in the line. You may hear audible noise (usually "hum") on POTS. I had that for a while here a few years ago and I had to eventually predict rain, make a service call, to catch a lineman when it was bad. A real pain but eventually got it.

permalink · 2003-04-05 00:38:43 ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs: ·AT&T U-Verse ·AT&T CallVantage ·Comcast Digital Vo.. ·Comcast	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 It has been suggested maybe the NID isn't sealed good. When I did sync for those 30 seconds tonight at 8.5db they saw tons of errors. So now I will have to sit and wait to see where we go from here. Every time the modem retrained it did full sync 1536/384. I got to tell you loved being at the because my pings were 31ms to yahoo, dslreports, etc.
	permalink · 2003-04-05 00:43:49 ·

Hall Premium,MVM join:2000-04-28 Dayton, OH ·EarthLink ·AT&T Midwest ·Earthlink Cable Mo..	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 I only suggested that because it's the only one you can "control" of affect. See that drop going from your house to the pole, or that connection at the pole ?? They could be allowing water in and you can do NOTHING about those. As for Safe Mode, you could live with it. Just ask Bill_MI. -- -= Mindspring MaxDSL via Covad 1536/384 TeleSurfer Pro =-
	permalink · 2003-04-05 10:33:06 ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs:	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 I know but once you have a taste of full you just don't want to give it up. I am going to check the NID in a little bit and scheduled SBC to come out and check the boxes. Thanks Hall!!!!!
	permalink · 2003-04-05 10:42:20 ·

Bill_MI
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said by Hall :
As for Safe Mode, you could live with it. Just ask Bill_MI.

I still keep my ports open in case something comes up to get out of it. I may work in FastPath for days at a time - but too infrequently to stay there.

I'm suspicious firmware can help noise margins very much - readings change quite regularly here (which is why I have about a YEAR of noise values to compare! Remember my graph chart?

). I'd sure like to be solid in FastPath (sigh).

GDM, was this firmware upgrade specifically for connection enhancement or more like a suggestion?

permalink · 2003-04-05 11:00:18 · Print ·

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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Bill,

The reason I got the firmware was because of the 643 not saving that MTU command in the autoexec.net. When I upgraded the firmware that didn't help but the noise margins increased. They did not tell me what the fixes were but it has stabled my line much more even in safe mode.

Before I upgraded the firmware my noise margins would start out around 9-10 in safe mode on the downside. Some mornings when I woke up it would be anywhere from 0-5db with no explanation from Covad. Once the firmware was updated I average 12-14db on the down now.

permalink · 2003-04-05 11:07:24 · Print ·

Bill_MI
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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Very little except that copper line between you and the central office affects noise margin. I'm speculating from my background when I say the chipset in the modems is probably not a part of a ZyXEL firmware upgrade and that chipset pretty much determines performance, noise susceptibility, etc.

But like I said... I keep an ear out for things like "long reach" options that might have a shot at getting me solid in FastPath. Technology does improve and there's a real drive to squeeze ADSL performance (SafeMode a typical example that probably didn't exist in 1997 when I first discovered this problem and solved it... sort of

).

I've considered getting a different modem just to try it - but such data is hard to find. I can bet the farm modems cannot be created equal, even within the same model, when talking about the fringe of performance. But heck, I'm not going to try 50 of them. LOL!
[text was edited by author 2003-04-05 11:30:00]

permalink · 2003-04-05 11:16:30 · Print ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs:	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 Bill, I think it would be worth a shot to call zyxel and ask them what the curren firmware for the 645 is. It won't hurt to upgrade.:)
	permalink · 2003-04-05 11:32:47 ·

ccarlin join:2000-12-28 Deerfield, IL	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 Well I was the other one that tried this and my margins definitely increased. My downstream went from 6.5 (right before upgrading) to 9.5 and is currently at 11.5. I have been up for 20 hours straight since doing this. I will wait and see how well it works on an evening during the week when I typically can't hold sync.
	permalink · 2003-04-05 19:37:01 ·

Bill_MI Bill In Michigan Premium,MVM join:2001-01-03 Royal Oak, MI	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 FastPath or SafeMode? I just reviewed the first 5 days of April and I'm averaging 10db noise margin downstream (my limiting factor). But the lowest was 6.5 and highest 11.5. Those 6.5 times kill me FastPath yet stay solid SafeMode.
	permalink · 2003-04-05 20:05:57 ·

Bill_MI Bill In Michigan Premium,MVM join:2001-01-03 Royal Oak, MI ·Comcast	ZyXEL isn't available 'til Monday but I'm looking at some updated f/w for my P645. Can either or both of you tell me what you have in menu 24.2.1? It should look like this: ZyNOS S/W Version: V2.50(EK.3) \| 8/31/2001 ADSL Chipset Vendor: Alcatel, Version 3.8.124 I found: ZyNOS F/W Version : V2.50(EK.4) \| 9/19/2002
	permalink · 2003-04-05 23:24:10 ·

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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Bill,

Here you go

ZyNOS F/W Version: V2.50(AY.4) | 11/08/2002
ADSL Chipset Vendor: Alcatel, Version 3.8.164
Standard: G.DMT

Interesting enough I was doing some digging on Covad's SMART account manager. You can actually get the new firmware for 643 from the covad site. Which is the only place I have seen this.

From the smart manager account

"This file is a firmware upgrade for the ZyXEL Prestige 643 ADSL Router that comes standard with all TeleSoho orders. The TeleSoho firmware upgrade is necessary for some TeleSoho customers that are trying to
1. Change their IP configuration from 1 IP address with NAT to 5 static IP addresses
2. Connect to XBox Live or other online gaming sites."

Bill do you have the 1.5/384 or 1.5/128 via EL? If you are on 1.5/384 how come EL users don't have the 643 out of curiosity?
[text was edited by author 2003-04-06 01:04:00]

permalink · 2003-04-06 00:19:55 · Print ·

Hall Premium,MVM join:2000-04-28 Dayton, OH	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 EL ships whatever they have in stock and whatever works. I've got a "special" 642M myself. -- -= Mindspring MaxDSL via Covad 1536/384 TeleSurfer Pro =-
	permalink · 2003-04-06 11:47:07 ·

Bill_MI
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said by gdm :
Bill do you have the 1.5/384 or 1.5/128 via EL? If you are on 1.5/384 how come EL users don't have the 643 out of curiosity?

Thanks for the info. Hall covered the modems pretty well

. I have the 1.5/384 service which is why my SafeMode is 928/384. It's also why I keep my ears open for ways to actually get 1.5m.

BTW, several people around the time I signed up got these "P645" modems from Earthlink. There is no plain-old "P645". Only further research found it to be a P645M-11 (or darn close). I determined this by getting the f/w off the unit and comparing it to f/w on the ZyXEL site - and got a byte-by-byte match! There isn't a lot of desire for ZyXEL or Earthlink to make these custom-ISP models well documented.

EDIT: Notice how your Alcatel Version is 3.8.164? My P645 is 3.8.124. Chances are this refers to the DSP-based chips and/or microcode that actually do the phone line signal conditioning. This is golden info to someone about possible performance issues I'm looking for - finding such people has not been successful. This engineer would love to talk to another inside this technology. I'd run out and get a Bla-Bla model Bla if someone told me it was the most advanced for noise.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-06 15:24:33]

permalink · 2003-04-06 15:05:25 · Print ·

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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Bill,

I have to agree with you. Zyxel seems to lack good documentation. Also, I agree about the various 645 models. When I was looking for documentation (limited) on the 643 I couldn't believe the list of 645 models. Is it really necessary to have that many?

I must tell you I like the fact I can see the noise margins myself. Other then that I really don't care.

permalink · 2003-04-06 15:12:28 ·

Bill_MI
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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Well, GDM And CCarlin - you have the latest for Covad on the P643 - V2.50(AY.4). I found out Earthlink hasn't officially blessed the latest for my P645 (which I got online anyway) which is V2.50(EK.4).

But to the best of his knowledge, no ADSL parameters are invloved in these upgrades. Two people claiming a few more db of noise margin is significant, though.

CCarlin - I'm really curious how your performance is on the new f/w. I may want to have a backup modem before attempting to FLASH my P645 - these ISP-unique versions make me nervous.

permalink · 2003-04-07 19:31:20 · Print ·

Bill_MI
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Well, I did it anyway. I'll have days of data for noise margins to compare.

Hey! Looky this...

was:
ZyNOS S/W Version: V2.50(EK.3) | 8/31/2001
ADSL Chipset Vendor: Alcatel, Version 3.8.124

now:
ZyNOS F/W Version: V2.50(EK.4) | 9/19/2002
ADSL Chipset Vendor: Alcatel, Version 3.8.164

A distinct Alcatel revision - maybe there is some microcode updated in the phone line stuff. At least I'm not down!

EDIT:
Holy Cow! It is definitely a jump in noise margin:

1/2 hour ago:
noise margin downstream: 10.0 db

now:
noise margin downstream: 13.5 db

But will it equate with stability in FastPath? A step in the right direction is indicated.

[text was edited by author 2003-04-07 20:37:34]

permalink · 2003-04-07 20:32:41 · Print ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs:	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 Bill what's the noise margins?
	permalink · 2003-04-07 20:36:05 ·

Bill_MI Bill In Michigan Premium,MVM join:2001-01-03 Royal Oak, MI ·Comcast	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 Sorry, I edited after excitement! I have lots of noise margin data (every hour since last April... no kidding!). I'll be able to plot noise margin (downstream is the limiting factor) for a week before and a week after, I hope. [text was edited by author 2003-04-07 20:41:45]
	permalink · 2003-04-07 20:38:06 ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs:	See something is up with this new firmware:) it's just not in my head:)
	permalink · 2003-04-07 20:44:00 ·

Bill_MI Bill In Michigan Premium,MVM join:2001-01-03 Royal Oak, MI ·Comcast	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 I was wondering if a forced re-train may have done that with noise margins anyway. Well, what poo-pooh's that theory is that 13.5db is the highest I've ever seen this month - so it just may be real. EDIT: I log noise margin every hour and 11.5db was the April high. [text was edited by author 2003-04-07 20:50:39]
	permalink · 2003-04-07 20:47:19 ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs:	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 Now remember bill in my case safe mode the highest I could get was 10db down and averaged 8db or lower. When I upgraded the highest I got was 14db and goes down to 12db. Usually it's around 13db most of the time.
	permalink · 2003-04-07 20:53:29 ·

Bill_MI Bill In Michigan Premium,MVM join:2001-01-03 Royal Oak, MI ·Comcast	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 The question of the hour is if it equates to better noise performance (a.k.a less SYNC loss). For all we know something may have changed an arithmetic bug so the numbers change but performance doesn't. Remember... pessimists are NEVER disappointed. EDIT: I'm inquiring in the ZyXEL forum. [text was edited by author 2003-04-07 21:00:13]
	permalink · 2003-04-07 20:57:19 ·

Hall Premium,MVM join:2000-04-28 Dayton, OH	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 One important thing you guys are overlooking. You see noise margins of 'x' and 'y' from your end. At the same time, what does Covad see on theirs ?? -- -= Mindspring MaxDSL via Covad 1536/384 TeleSurfer Pro =-
	permalink · 2003-04-07 21:43:23 ·

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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Hall, the 2 numbers always compared but it's been a while since I heard the DSLAM end. The DSLAM has a set of parameters but they compared so exactly I always figured they exchange each other's numbers. Only the modem can measure signal-to-noise ratio received, the DSLAM cannot, right?

EDIT: Or do you mean upstream? Upstream has never been an issue here - is it anywhere? Upstream is the low-freq end and (in our case) the narrower bandwidth. My upstream noise margin never gets below 18 (but I'll watch that, too).
[text was edited by author 2003-04-07 22:01:31]

permalink · 2003-04-07 21:59:31 · Print ·

ccarlin

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Well Monday night and I have been up the whole time. That is a first for a weeknight in about a month or so.

Not sure if the firmware had anything to do with it but it certainly didn't hurt.

My downstream noise margin is currently only 10.0 but maybe it went down lower every evening and that was why I couldn't hold sync?

By the way I am in Safe Mode and have been for a while so 928 is tops for me. Which is fine since my distance dictates that I am lucky to get that. Speed tests are giving me a 776/326 rating.

permalink · 2003-04-07 22:06:18 · Print ·

Bill_MI
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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Here's 7 days of my Noise Margin Downstream. The very last 2 data points are since the f/w upgrade.
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permalink · 2003-04-07 22:30:38 · Print ·

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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

Hall,

My numbers always are in sync with what Covad sees. At least on the 643. Well Bill and ccarlin will be the test mine is another issue with night time at this point.

Let's see if ccarlin keeps sync the whole and week. Plus what Bill's monitor shows friday/saturday.

Ccarlin my noise margins go down at night and raise during the day by 1 db usually

Right now I am back in safe mode at 13/17.

Bill, I just checked and have
DSL F/W Version: Alcatel, Version 3.8.164
I can't say what it was before the firmware update. Also my firmware update shows 11/08/2002 where A3 I believe was 09/2002.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-08 00:55:10]

permalink · 2003-04-07 22:48:49 · Print ·

Bill_MI
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Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643

said by gdm :
Bill, I just checked and have
DSL F/W Version: Alcatel, Version 3.8.164
I can't say what it was before the firmware update.

That Alcatel version definitely seems to be the part that affects this since this Alcatel chipset does all the phone line handling. I haven't found details on it... yet.

EDIT: Yep, I'll probably try it soon if this keeps up.

[text was edited by author 2003-04-08 23:44:07]

permalink · 2003-04-08 23:41:51 · Print ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs:	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 I haven't found anything on it either.
	permalink · 2003-04-08 23:43:38 ·

szanke

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I was in Safe Mode due to sync issues for about the last month using the 643 and TeleSoho 1500/384 service.
I just flashed my firmware to V2.50(AY.4) | 11/08/2002
and immediately saw an increase of about 4db in noise margins and a 5db decrease in relative capacity occupation downstream.
I called tech support and asked to be put in Fast Path.
My downstream noise margins in Fast Path since the firmware flash are about 3 to 3.5 db higher than they were when when I was having sync issues. Hopefully it will remain stable.

Downstream Noise Margin
relative capacity occupation: 82%
noise margin downstream: 9.5 db
output power upstream: 12.0 dbm
attenuation downstream: 64.0 db

permalink · 2003-04-08 22:27:27 · Print ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs:	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 Very interesting. Szanke so far all of ours have remained stable. It may decrease 1-2 db but it usually goes up to. Form me in safe mode 14/18 are my peaks. I average about 12.5-13/17.
	permalink · 2003-04-08 22:29:49 ·

Hall Premium,MVM join:2000-04-28 Dayton, OH	9.5 is still borderline, isn't it ??
	permalink · 2003-04-08 22:42:00 ·

Hall
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Should I see about upgrading my Zyxel firmware ??

permalink · 2003-04-08 22:44:23 · Print ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs: ·AT&T U-Verse ·AT&T CallVantage ·Comcast Digital Vo.. ·Comcast	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 Hall I want to smack you:) I was running fine at 7.5/13 in fast path with no issues from 6am to 7pm. After that something is going on. From all my reading as long as you can stay above 6db you are good. Where/how did you get that screen shot? [text was edited by author 2003-04-08 22:51:40]
	permalink · 2003-04-08 22:51:14 ·

Bill_MI
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Data Update

Hour 166 was the f/w update. It's kinda obvious *something* changed. You just know I want to try FastPath again (last summer was the last time I tried it).

permalink · 2003-04-08 23:30:16 · Print ·

gdm Premium,MVM join:2001-06-15 Mchenry, IL clubs:	Re: Data Update Do it Bill!!!! Come on you know you want to:):)
	permalink · 2003-04-08 23:35:05 ·

ccarlin join:2000-12-28 Deerfield, IL	Well I am still up and running, this is the longest I have ran without any real downtime in a long while. Two weeknights in a row without loosing sync (well I lost once but it came right back up and never went back down).
	permalink · 2003-04-09 10:22:04 ·

Hall Premium,MVM join:2000-04-28 Dayton, OH	Have you guys inquired in the Zyxel forum ?? Maybe there's a Zyxel tech who hangs out there and can comment on this... -- -= Mindspring MaxDSL via Covad 1536/384 TeleSurfer Pro =-
	permalink · 2003-04-09 11:04:01 ·

See 21 replies to this post

Gibigiane @sun.com	Just a note that I also upgraded my 643's firmware with the version on the Covad website and my noise margins definitely showed an improvment (10db to ~15db).
	permalink · 2003-05-17 01:15:06 ·

Sebastian
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is there a way to upgrade the zyxel 645M firmware? does it even have one? if so how?

I tried using telnet with IP address 192.168.1.1 but i can't connect, do you think they changed it, speakeasy/covad?

honestly, i am not sure what model it is... i say 645M because that is what it says on my DSL order.. but the modem itself just says "Prestige 645"
--
will code for free.
[text was edited by author 2003-05-17 02:53:29]

permalink · 2003-05-17 02:44:42 ·

Bill_MI Bill In Michigan Premium,MVM join:2001-01-03 Royal Oak, MI ·Comcast	Re: Firmware rasied noise margins on 643 Sebastian, I just posted my 20 cents on the ZyXEL P645 here: »Cant Log Into 645 Modem ISP customization seems to be a moving target so I tried to be as generic as possible. Even the same ISP seems to have used various versions of config.
	permalink · 2003-05-17 04:32:59 ·

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