Noidd
join:2003-05-20
Kemp, TX
| Wireless for a 1+ mile stretch?
Hiya...
Recently, my brother's area can get DSL and since I only live a mile or so from him, was thinking that maybe we could setup a wireless lan between he and I since I am unable to get the DSL service in my area. We realize this would involve external antennas such as yagi's as we have many of these lying around we used for Amateur Radio projects as well as towers to get above the tree line in which we also have covered. I am just very stupid when it comes to equipment to buy for this project. Has anyone ever setup something like this and can share their equipment successes as in what they have as well as the stability of the network? I would really love to get this going within the next month or so.
Thanks a bunch. |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
 ·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| You could probably do it with an Amatuer license, yagis, and two transceivers. This would be costly and slow.
You could also set up a point-to-point microwave link. This would be costly, require an FCC license, and be fast.
You could use modems - would be cheap and slow.
You could used leased lines - would be expensive and fast.
Or you could wait until your brother gets dsl. |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY | reply to Noidd
Here's another idea - Cheap and FAST
»www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulp···823.html |
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Andrew J
Premium
join:2001-11-09
Lancaster, PA
clubs:
·Comcast
 ·Vonage
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Noidd
Favorite bridging links:
»www.bextreme.net/wap11web/
»www.craig-bartell.com/secret/Cra···idge.zip
»www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulp···628.html
»www.d128.com/wireless/
Hardware links:
»www.netscum.com/~clapp/wireless.html
»www.hdcom.com/2.4ghzantennas.html
»seattlewireless.net/index.cgi/Di···onalYagi |
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russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| reply to Noidd
Point to point microwave (802.11b) link using Part 15 equipment shouldn't require a license. You need an access point with an external antenna connection, a wireless bridge with same, and two 2.4Ghz directional antennas and appropriate radio pigtails. There's lots of options for the AP, but AFAIK only Linksys (WET-11 cheap) and Senao (SL-2511BG+ expensive) have bridges which don't use a proprietary protocol.
That takes care of the radio end, you also probably need a NAT router on the end with the DSL line to take care of the IP end, unless your brother has multiple IP addresses available. |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to Noidd
802.11b is NOT point-to-point microwave.
As well, setting 802.11b for communications of 1 mile, may be in violation of the FCCs rules re: the 2.4GHz ISM (industrial, scientific, medical) band, and may require a license (although they would not grant it, and no-one bothers anyway). IF you could do it, with high-gain directional antennas, that is the way to go. You could make some out of pringles cans.
[text was edited by author 2003-05-21 16:02:23] |
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Noidd
join:2003-05-20
Kemp, TX
| reply to Andrew J
For sake of understanding, If I were to buy 2 Linksys Wap11's and of course use an external yagi, is there any additional items I would need? I have two older 10/100 Nics I used for a wired network previous to moving so I have that covered. The WLAN's are a whole new thing to me and would love to achieve great results in which I'm sure we can since we have LOS.
I do apologize however for my ignorance regarding WLANs and hope I don't seem like to much of a newbie 
Thanks guys/gals |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to Noidd
You don't use yagi antennas with 2.4Ghz microwave frequencies. You can buy high-gain directional antennas, or you can build one with a Pringles can (don't know if this will cover the one mile).
All you would need is some CAT5 cable, the antenna's and perhaps some coaxial cable & connectors. - Cheap.
Check out the links in Andrew_J's excellent post above for antenna construction techniques, where to buy them, and how to do it. |
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Noidd
join:2003-05-20
Kemp, TX
| Thanks for the reply...Sorry I'm use to Amateur Radio terminology where everything is a yagi/beam/directional or whatever you'd like to call it ... Also, many thanks for the links and information, I'll definently grab a few Wap11's and some more CAT5 and I should be in business.
Many thanks to you helpful people.... |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to Noidd
When it comes to Amateur radio; they are great at implementing wireless above 1GHz, and building homebrew antennas.
Check out the ARRL handbook, or ARRL Antenna Handbook, for designs on 2.4 Ghz wireless antenna's, if thats what you fancy.
I don't know who started the Pringles can idea, but it had to be a ham. |
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cmaenginsb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-19
Palmdale, CA
| reply to Noidd
You do use Yagi antennas a 2.4 Ghz as well as panels,grids and dishes. You need an antenna designed for that frequency.
For 1 mile assuming you have clear line of sight (little to no trees) you could get either some 19 db grids or yagis (yagis are one of the most expensive 2.4 Ghz antenna). You could combine this with a pair of WAP-11s and be off to the races.
As to legality, neither the pringles can solution or WAP-11 solution would be legal as the antenna has to be certified with the radio to be legal. However I would liken this to speeding in that chances of you being caught are low so it's more a matter of conscience.
As for some of whizkids answers, 802.11b has no legal distance limitations. It has to deal with max power (1 watt) and antenna gain (6db for a PTmP and more for PTP). There is no license for this either.
As to a homebrew antenna vs premade. If you have the time and want a fun project build one, if you'd rather get things up and running I'd buy them.
--
CCNA, Comtrain Certified Tower Climber |
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poolgodtodd
Let It Snow
Premium
join:2003-04-01
Illinois
| reply to Noidd
We could sit here all day and discuss Part15 but I'm tired of that...so to the point. Noidd, 1 mile is not that big of a deal with good line of sight. Numerous people in this forum have gone much farther. It sounds like you have some radio experience so you should be able to do this with little hassle. Most of the 802.11b radios are 30mw(15dbm).
With a few calculations you come up with a free space loss of 104db in clear weather for 1 mile. With 15dbi antennas and figuring for cable & conn. loss you come up with a signal of approx -65dbm which should be fine for 11mbs for most radios even in inclement weather. Too be sure you could use higher gain antennas on each end or just one. You could use Yagi's but I personally prefer either Grid(Parabolic) or panel antennas based on their side lobe patterns. You say you already have the tower components so that's no problem. The NIC's you have should be fine(if you are only connecting 2 cpus). You mentioned two WAP11's those will be fine as long as they're the same version. You could either mount the AP in a NEMA box on the tower and run Cat5 cable up to it with a small coax run to the antenna or run coax all the way to the house. I would base this on how long of a run you have to go due to microwave leaks out of the cable extremely fast. Even with LMR400 coax you are looking at around 4.7db loss over 40 feet(2.7 +1db for each conn). If you go this route I would definitely go up to 19dbi grid antennas. The cost difference between 15dbi and 19dbi is minimal. If you are putting up towers then I doubt if you too worried about the asthetics of a bigger antenna. If you are like me, you probably get a kick out of it anyway....well I got my 2...I mean 10 cents worth in. Bye the way, with the above setup for example, you would have an EIRP of 29.3dbm...well within limits of the allowed 48dbm for ISM PtP. |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to Noidd
cmaenginsb said: quote:
You do use Yagi antennas a 2.4 Ghz as well as panels,grids and dishes.
As for some of whizkids answers, 802.11b has no legal distance limitations. It has to deal with max power (1 watt) and antenna gain (6db for a PTmP and more for PTP).
Well I am a Satcom guy - thats why I am not familiar with using yagis. (Have never seen them attached to a WAP. They gotta be really small at that freq., no?)
Re 1 mile, I said 'MAY be in violation'. Question, how much MORE for PTP? |
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despatch_uk
@plus.com
| this may help you i am in the same situation and got this from dlink very helpfull
»www.freedom-uk.com/dlink.pdf
it is an arial distance sheet shows you what you need for what range |
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poolgodtodd
Let It Snow
Premium
join:2003-04-01
Illinois
| reply to Noidd
RE:Re 1 mile, I said 'MAY be in violation'. Question, how much MORE for PTP?
From the new rules I read, you are allowed 30dbm (1watt)amp max plus up to 6db omni for PtMP total=36dbm.
PtP: as soon as you go over 6db of gain the EIRP goes up. For every 3db of gain on the antenna you must drop the amp output by 1db.
AMP ANT EIRP
30 6 36
29 9 38
28 12 40
27 15 42
26 18 44
25 21 46
24 24 48
23 27 50
22 30 52
21 33 54
20(100mw)36db=56dbm(398watts!!!) Would be pretty much a laser of an antenna though. |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to Noidd
The d-link chart is nice, but really tells you nothing more than their line of antennas, and what distances they expect them to cover (without pertinent specifications).
poolgodtodd, Thanks.
Laser of antenna? I have frequently put together satellite dishes with 51dB+ of gain! (At around 3GHz).
Why not get a couple of LOS microwave dishes - you will not only get a fast connection with minimal loss; you can toast you hotdog at the same time!
[text was edited by author 2003-05-22 14:33:13] |
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MustardMan
join:2003-05-22
Sealand
| reply to Noidd
A linear yagi on each side such as the ones I built as part of this project should do the trick.
»www.powerontech.com/wireless/
The person with the DSL will need a Wireless Router. The other person can use a Wireless Ethernet client like the SMC2670W or the Linksys WET-11.
The biggest hassle is connecting the external antennas to the equipment. Some use reverse polarity SMA or TNC in which case you can order special connectors from a place like hyperlink
»www.hyperlinktech.com/. If they don't have detachable antennas then the equipment will have to be modifed for external antenna use.
If money is not as much of an issue you could just buy the all in one outdoor antenna plus outdoor bridge/router. They will cost you significantly more though. |
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Noidd
join:2003-05-20
Kemp, TX
| Well we currently have the antennas that we had used for Amateur TV which will be modded to include the 2.4ghz spectrum. The antennas are 20 element beams which both will be located on 50 ft towers and w/ a GPS' help, should get spot on to each antenna.
As far as the router is concerned, couldn 't we just go NIC to NIC for the router plus add a NIC for the DSL modem and just do the internet sharing? I'd hate to have to buy a router for this config but if it's needed, I guess I'll have to. I'm not to up on DSL needs since I am only experienced with wired networks w/ dialup at that time.
Sorry I'm being a pain
Thanks to all for the wonderful information, gives me alot to read up on.. |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| reply to Noidd
Noidd,
Perhaps you could post a little diagram of your network topology. It is very unclear what you are trying to do when you say: "couldn 't we just go NIC to NIC for the router plus add a NIC for the DSL modem and just do the internet sharing".
In its simpest form, I see your network as follows:
Location 1 - ADSL modem -> wireless router -> PCs & wireless link to loc. 2.
Location 2 - wireless router (or access point) -> PCs
This should work just fine. |
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poolgodtodd
Let It Snow
Premium
join:2003-04-01
Illinois
| reply to Noidd
A router will not talk to another router without a bridge. As far as 3 NICs, it is possible but I would recommend using a dedicated router for this. It will manage your connection of the DSL for you. If you use ICS the computer on the DSL will always have to be on plus it will make it a lot easier to expand later if you decide to. |
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