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Mark Z
Premium Member
join:2002-10-14

Mark Z

Premium Member

Electronic vote manipulation - Is this possible?

I read this last night and it sent shudders down my spine. I'd like others to have a close look at the article, especially those who are more technically minded to see if this is indeed something that could be happening wherever touch screen voting terminals are used.

»www.scoop.co.nz/mason/st ··· 0065.htm

rflack50
Wacko
Premium Member
join:2000-12-12
Sacramento, CA

rflack50

Premium Member

They have a very long way to go if this program is cutting edge. Also how can they completely secure a computer on the internet so that hackers can't crack it? I don't believe it's possible, so now we have a voting system thats even more vulnerable to problems. They need allot more work, and it shouldn't be transmitted over the internet until they can gaurantee it's secure from all attacks. Otherwise whats the use.

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
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I don't know why states are so enamored with electronic voting machines; they are expensive and have no audit trail.

Here in NH we have used optical scanners for years. They are cheap, don’t take up much space, and have high accuracy - mistakes are caught when the paper ballet is scanned so the voter can be issued a replacement ballet. Sometimes low tech is better then hi tech.

The other problem is voter registration, which has nothing to do with the type of voting equipment used to record votes.

nevertheless
Premium Member
join:2002-03-08
St Catharines, ON

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Re: Electronic vote manipulation - Is this possibl

said by rflack50:
They have a very long way to go if this program is cutting edge.
I don't call any program 'cutting edge' if it's built on top of Microsoft Access. I'm hoping those articles are omitting something for the sake of clarity and that it's actually an SQL database that's warehousing all the data and Access is just the user interaction piece.
said by rflack50:
Also how can they completely secure a computer on the internet so that hackers can't crack it?
I saw nothing about the Internet and vote submission in those articles. It is going over POTS, which might be an issue.

If this is the software used in elections in any constituencies, and it actually is this buggy/messed up, then this is probably as major a find as the authors seem to think.

We'll see. Nobody here in the EL seems to be taking notice.

Mark Z
Premium Member
join:2002-10-14

Mark Z

Premium Member

said by nevertheless:
If this is the software used in elections in any constituencies, and it actually is this buggy/messed up, then this is probably as major a find as the authors seem to think.

We'll see. Nobody here in the EL seems to be taking notice.


My thoughts exactly. Something as critical as election results should not be using M$ software.

Where are all the regulars in the EL when they are needed?

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

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Re: Electronic vote manipulation - Is this possible?

You will ofcourse first have to excuse me my skull is not in the best condition today, splitting pain will work.

My first thoughts on this becomes why is there admin level access on the machines? Why are they not using some type of smartcard locks? While I can see this might be a problem for election officials to actually goto individual voting stations to unlock each machine and upload the results, that would ofcourse change the base nature of the problem if ofcourse I'm grasping this right. Second I don't see any type of hardware encryption let alone software crypto on them to encrypt the election results.

It seems in truth that these machines are nothing more then a half hearted attempt at modernization of election machines, not good in the least. It's half assed, and it leaves open huge possibilities of abuse which were fairly well covered in the above posted article.

As for auditing, I'm not anywhere near qualified to comment on that but so say that it seems to be very sorely lacking. Just an idea off the top of my head I would use two storage devices with hardware level encryption, using smartcard's that have a 72hr key on them. Two drives, one for recording one for auditing. A rep would be required to unlock the machine with a smartcard to upload the results. Now this ofcourse could lead to a few other problems such a corrupted data and whatnot, but I'm not a programer and someone with more smarts in that area could probbly come up with a better idea of how to build in redundant safties to stop corrupted data not to mention deliberate attempts of data corruption.

Just some thoughts anyway. Feel free to post your replies, it may be awhile before I can respond.

Mospaw
My socks don't match.

join:2001-01-08
New Braunfels, TX

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to Mark Z

Re: Electronic vote manipulation - Is this possibl

I trust ones and zeros for many many things in my life. A large part of my income is derived from my ability to wrangle the ones and zeros. I'm pretty good, but I'm not "elite hacker" good.

What I mean by that is there are lots of others with much more ability to wrangle ones and zeros than I have, and they also might have the incentive to get in there. And if they don't, those who wish to purchase their knowledge for their own ends certainly exist. In both parties.

I absolutely cannot trust something as sacred as free elections to a system that anyone with a fairly basic knowledge of Microsoft Access can not only get into, but change election results without being seen.

To have a totally electronic system without some sort of paper back-up only invites massive fraud with no way of every knowing the real vote. Even the poorly-done punch cards used in parts of Florida look better than this system. Actually, there are very few systems that I could imagine being worse than this one, for a variety of reasons.

To me, this is all "if it ain't broke don't fix it". There are very few totally-computer replacements that work better or are simpler than their analog counterparts. Forms come to mind. I don't see these machines, even if they were secure, as doing anything but solving a problem that does not exist while making a fairly simple process more error prone and difficult.

If this is the future of voting, then we're all screwed.

mr sean
Professional Infidel

join:2001-04-03
N. Absentia

mr sean

said by Mospaw:
If this is the future of voting, then we're all screwed.

On the other hand, it will only effect 51% of the eligible voters (43% here in Texas).
bmn
? ? ?

join:2001-03-15
hiatus

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to nevertheless
said by nevertheless:
It is going over POTS, which might be an issue.
Actually, even if it goes over the POTS network, it is easy to keep the data protected from being tampered with by outside crackers and evil doers. There is a program that you can used call PGPFone that encrypts voice and data transmissions with such security that the CIA has complained about it. It is based on the same software as PGP, which has proven difficult to crack quickly enough to do harm DURING the transmission of the results.

As for this software being based on Microsoft software... I barely trust Microsoft with MY person data, so I could never trust them with the accuracy and security of voter data and votes...

And another interesting aside is, what prevents this technology from tracking who and what you vote for ? Its a bit paranoid, but you never know with the current atmosphere in the government.
Maggs
Premium Member
join:2002-11-29
Jackson Heights, NY

Maggs to Mark Z

Premium Member

to Mark Z

Re: Electronic vote manipulation - Is this possible?

One way to eliminate election fraud is to use mailed identification serial numbers which would then be entered before voting, that when altered by someone else they would show a change in the database.
Also, this could be used to provide login or details about the person who changed the info. If anyone on the inside changes the results their could be a flagging mechanism, which would alter election officals to possible fraud.

Also, they could control the flow of information by only allowing access from certain secure locations, which would be staffed by election officals. On the new voter registration forms, there could be a barcode placed that when scanned allows access to the network in addition to a possible biometric feature.
They could also create checksums from the unique retinal pattern of the human eye, which would offer even greater security.

MIABye
Premium Member
join:2001-10-28
united state

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Premium Member

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Why not just combine the best of both worlds. Make people still go to a voting booth and vote with a dummy terminal which then submits its results via Internet2 or some other network not open to the public?

nc1165
join:2001-04-10
Delray Beach, FL

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Member

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In my own suspicious and cynical mind, I can only be led to believe that some things are designed to fail. And, obviously, this is one of them.
No Name5
You Only Regret What You Have Not Done.
join:2000-01-26
Glendale, AZ

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Re: Electronic vote manipulation - Is this possibl

Florida just a brother.
bmn
? ? ?

join:2001-03-15
hiatus

bmn to Maggs

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Another, and perhaps methodology would be to use the mag strips on drivers licenses. All voters, at least in Louisiana, are required to have an ID (most do) or an affadavit as proof of identity. If the voting machines used these mag strips, you would not have to mail out cards and you would save a fortune in postage.

As for people with affadavits, instead of IDs, voting could be certified by commissioners as is already done.

PeteC2
Got Mouse?
MVM
join:2002-01-20
Bristol, CT

PeteC2 to mr sean

MVM

to mr sean
said by mr sean:
said by Mospaw:
If this is the future of voting, then we're all screwed.

On the other hand, it will only effect 51% of the eligible voters (43% here in Texas).

Thank you Mr Sean!!! As much as accuracy, and integrity of the voting process are important, better participation of the public in the voting process is paramount!

Mark Z
Premium Member
join:2002-10-14

Mark Z

Premium Member

said by PeteC2:
said by mr sean:
said by Mospaw:
If this is the future of voting, then we're all screwed.

On the other hand, it will only effect 51% of the eligible voters (43% here in Texas).

Thank you Mr Sean!!! As much as accuracy, and integrity of the voting process are important, better participation of the public in the voting process is paramount!

Not if the results can be modified by altering a M$ Access table.
Mark Z

Mark Z

Premium Member

This has now been picked up by all the major media outlets. Phew, judging by the lack of interest shown here I figured this would just get slowly swept away into a CT.