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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
|  Different stories from everyone - help!!
I contacted speakeasy.net - they tell me I can get IDSL with them through Covad....but Covad tells me they cannot service my line. I had called DSLi in the beginning of April and they told me I could get access through Covad OR Rhythms... Rhythms tells me they cannot service me either. I called DSLi yesterday and they tell me I can get a line through Rhythms but NOT Covad!! How on earth do I get a straight answer from anyone? I am a little ancy because if I get a line through Covad I need to order it before May 1 to get the NP modem return rebate.
So basically Covad and Rhythms both say they can't provide a line for me - Speakeasy says Covad can and DSLi says that Rhythms can but Covad cannot, even though DSLi told me a few weeks ago that I could get access through either Covad or Rhythms. Does anyone have an idea how I can get correct information on this situation???
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
|  strosien
join:2000-07-08
Livonia, MI
|  Re: Different stories from everyone - help!!
I have a bit of a different situation but nobody seems to have a good answer.
It seems that for Covad, I would have to have a seperate run of copper as Covad cannot provision the line that Northpoint used (shared with voice). Just more overhead for getting me setup.
On top of that, I am theoretically about only about 400 feet beyond the magical 15000' so Covad will ONLY offer me IDSL. A guy from Covad was spouting off to me yesterday in response to my question about the 15000' limit and he said that NP was using "hubs" (he said it was like a mini-CO) in the line to increase distance and that Covad does not use those. I had never heard of such a thing. He could not help me further.
Can anyone shed some light on this hub stuff?? Was Nrthpoint that special that nobody can do what they were doing????/ geeezzz... all I want is for us to be able to get to the internet quickly.
Wouldl I really be conetnt with IDSL???? or should I call Time Warner to get RR?
Thanks for anyone with insight on the hub stuff (sounds odd to me). | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Re: Different stories from everyone - help!! Oh - speaking of provisioning NP lines... everyone I speak to says that my NP line and modem cannot be used - at all. My NP line is a separate IDSL line. I understand that different places use different equipment, but...maybe this is a stupid question but it seems strange that I have a line and modem that no one can use whatsoever. All the lights on my modem are green still, but the line is dead...
I hadn't heard anything about NP hubs before...
I just want correct information! Dang it...
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Comcast
| Re: Different stories from everyone - help!! Carrie,
I went through the same thing. DSLreports says that NAS, Rhythms and Covad will provide IDSL. Covad says it can, Rhythms says it can’t, NAS says it can’t. Megapath can through Rhythms, Speakeasy can through Covad. What the????
Everybody wants to use new equipment. They say they can’t use the modem, maybe, maybe not. The line, it’s a pair of copper wires. I think it’s a bunch of bull that they can’t use it. I would push them if I was you.
I decided not to proceed with the IDSL since everybody wanted an equipment charge, an installation charge and a year contract. It was a lot of money for 2 to 3 times the dial-up when I expect cable to get here in the next 6-9 months.
So, I got my second phone line back and will dial until something changes.
Ron | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Ok - is this true??? Well, I signed up for IDSL with DSLi (did not fax the contract over yet though) They (DSLi) actually contacted Rhythms and confirmed that Rhythms could service me (though I realize you can't really know 100% until they come and check your location, etc) I was able to get DSLi to waive the year contract and pay month per month, no contract. However, I do have to pay for a new line installation and modem. I wondered about the line installation, since I have the NP IDSL line. I decided to ask about the line itself -- I asked them why they couldn't use my existing IDSL line. I was told that they don't have the "information" needed to configure the line, that my other ISP (Telocity) has it and since they don't have the information to configure my current line, they have to install a new line. Is this correct? Since I did not cancel my service with Telocity - they told me they could no longer service me - couldn't I just get the configuration from Telocity? Or can't DSLi get this information?
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| | | | | susangg6
join:2001-03-28
Fremont, CA
| Re: Ok - is this true??? These appear not to be technical problems but rather, POLITICAL problems. Assuming that the current NP circuit meets the new carrier's distance requirements, there is no TECHNICAL reason why it cannot be switched from NP to the new carrier. There is however a POLITICAL problem: The telcos do not want to do it because they want the customers to be forced to use THEIR DSL service (even if they don't offer one yet, but especially if they do.)
So they are refusing to allow the lines to be switched EXCEPT in situations where: (1) the state regulatory agency is forcing them to do it; or (2) the ISP is pushing them to do it and threatening legal action if they don't do it; or (3) the line carrier is pushing them to do it.
Covad is known for playing footsie with the telcos and their policy is "don't push the telco."
If you have an aggressive ISP (like Megapath) who will push and prod, you will get your line switched, assuming it meets the new carrier's criteria. Here in Northern California, PacBell is trying to obstruct line switches but they can't be too overt about it because the PUC is looking over their shoulder, so instead of outright refusing, they are giving the ISP's the "slow roll" (meaning they do it after a lot of pushing and prodding).
If everyone who is being subjected to this crap raised a lot of hell, it might help. There are a lot of ways to do this: Call your congress person, call your local regulatory agency (in Calif. its the PUC), call or email the tech issues writers for your local newspaper. When you talk to them also remind them what an atrocity the Tauzin bill is, and how it will make the telcos even more of a de facto monopoly than they already are... | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Re: Ok - is this true??? Now that annoys me - Verizon cannot provide dsl service for me, and they say they doubt they can any time soon!! Yet they are making me pay someone else for a new line because of it? So why is DSLi telling me that my old ISP (Telocity) has the information and they can't get it - how can Verizon interfere with that? I know, this may sound silly but I really don't see why DSLi can't get this "configuration information" and at least see if the line meets the criteria. I checked at one point about switching ISPs - I had a NP line and my ISP was Telocity. DSLi said they could just do an ISP switch with my line...DSLi is also switching all their NP customers over to Rhythms, Covad etc.... if I had made the ISP switch before NP died, they could have transferred me...unless they would have had to possibly still install a new line? I can only get IDSL due to my distance, and if Rhythms can provide me an IDSL line, it seems they should just use the one I have right now. Argh - I don't know - should I call DSLi and try to push them to get this line info and try and use the perfectly good IDSL line I currently have? (well, perfectly good in that it worked fine until NP died) If my line doesn't meet the necessary criteria, fine - I have no problem paying for a new line but it seems absurd to pay for a new line if I can use the line I have! It also seems completely absurd that Verizon would somehow be interfering with this when they CAN'T provide me with DSL and told me themselves that they probably couldn't any time soon! !^!$!%#
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| Re: Ok - is this true??? said by carrieg:
It also seems completely absurd that Verizon would somehow be interfering with this when they CAN'T provide me with DSL and told me themselves that they probably couldn't any time soon! !^!$!%#
HA! Believe it.
and the bit about a new line, as you say, if I may quote you " !^!$!%# ". Two copper wires that were working fine for IDSL last week suddenly don't, BULL!
My IDSL modem is sitting here talking to the DSLAM at the Downingtown CO. Every once in awhile it sends a burst of data and goes one it's way. I can't get DSL unless I get new everything, like you. I know all they have to do is take the 2 wires from here and put them there.
In needed a good rant!
ron | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Re: Ok - is this true??? This is ridiculous. If this is true - that they could really just use my line and are not, it makes me *not* want to go ahead with DSLi. Giving in to something so ridiculous - whether it's DSLI's fault, Verizon's fault... etc... would be just helping to perpetuate the cycle. Again, if for some reason they really *do* need to install a new line, I can understand and I won't complain about paying. It seems that, from the comments so far on this board, that they should be able to use my existing line - or they should at least *check* and see if they can. How can I get a hold of someone who will give me the straight story... or is it pointless? I mean really, what a waste - ripping out a line to put in one when the one there could work??
And let me state again - I am not trying to get something for nothing. I do not have a problem paying for service and equipment... I just don't want to pay for something I do not need!
Yes beeron...&!%!^
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Ok, Verizon is on my you know what list now. yes I am replying to myself.
I called conectiv regarding DSL... they were very nice, btw.. and the lowest monthly rate! ($59.95 - no contract.. la la la!)
Well, I asked they guy on the phone about the existing line thing... and he said that the telocs won't allow them to switch the lines - they (conectiv and other ISPs) get charged and have to install a new line, so they in turn have to charge the customer. (so what was this configuration stuff the dude at DSLi was referring to?) My area uses Verizon - they can't provide access for me and then they want to turn around cause me to spend an extra $150-$200 for a new line when I really don't need one
It's not like they are trying to force me to use them - THEY CAN'T PROVIDE SERVICE TO ME!!
Why on EARTH would they do this? I said before that giving in would perpetuate the cycle...but if everyone just gives up and doesn't use these ISPs because the telcos are causing them to pay extra... it's like giving in and allowing the telocs to push out everyone else.
Am I off base here???
Anyway, I think I will take susangg's advice and start raising h*ll.
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Bucko9
join:2001-04-24
Portland, OR
| Ug. I hate Telocity right now. I hate Pac Bell, too. While I am happy for those former NP people who managed to get switched to other last mile providers (including Pac Bell), I am furious that there seems to be no good reason that Telocity cannot provide service to me me me.
I have contacted my congresswoman. I have contacted the California PUC. Perhaps I should just give up because I just keep getting more and more frustrated!!! I keep calling Telocity, thinking that they actually are "in the process of provisioning" another provider for me. Unfortunately, they proceed to tell me that, there is no "qualified" carrier. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer as to what constitutes "qualified." Telocity has also told me that Pac Bell denied their request stating that no circuits were available. Of course, this is not a technical problem, it is a competition problem. Pac Bell can, of course (in fact, there sales person bragged to me about the likelihood that "Pac Bell will be here forever" unlike the other DSL providers) service my line. I do not want their crummy contract nor do I want their dynamic IP address. I want them to play fair.
Rant rant rant rave. . . I really liked DSL. | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Know what gets me? Verizon refuses to let DSLi or whoever switch over my line and are forcing the install of a new one, right? (for what reason I don't know....) Well gosh, let's say Telocity had been able to switch my carrier from Northpoint to something else... Verizon would not have required them to install a BRAND new line - so why, because Telocity can't seem to find a carrier for me, do *I* have to pay for a new IDSL line to be installed because I have to switch ISPs?! Telocity should have been able to switch me over to Rhythms, since that is what I would use if I go with DSLi but I guess they (Telocity) didn't feel like it. I have had PSN go bankrupt on me, NP die on me, Telocity basically tell me to go jump in a lake, and because of that VERIZON is going to make me pay for a new line instead of using the one I already paid for??!
*fume*
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word?
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 23:26:50] | |
| | | | | | | | | Anon | Re: Know what gets me? I was just flipping through these messages and thought I might be able to add a little insight...there's more to DSL then what you see in your home/office, there are circuits that need to be provisioned in the Telco CO, these circuits remain the property of the company who buys them, ie. Rhythms , Covad, NP...when NP went out of business they did not release most of these circuits, because of this, your new providers are unable to use those existing circuits and are then forced to run a whole new line. So don't blame Verizon (for this, at least) and don't blame your new provider...blame the old one
oh, by the way, if DSL wasn't so cheap, these companies would not have gone out of business and you would all still have service...the old adage never changed..."you (still) get what you pay for." Don't wanna pay? Have fun with your dial-ups... | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Re: Know what gets me? Well, as I stated before, I have no problem paying for service. I don't recall complaining about DSL fees here - I wanted to get the real story on why my current line can not be switched to another provider. If there is a technical issue that prohibits my current IDSL line from being used for another IDSL connection, and I need a brand new line for the same type of DSL connection, ok. However, the phone call I just completed with Verizon shows that I am still not getting the correct information.
I was told that my current NP IDSL line could not be switched to Rhythms, etc not because of technical issues but because 1) Verizon would not allow them to do so or 2) there was technical information they needed for the line that my old ISP (Telocity) had
Well I just got off the phone with verizon. I was told by someone at Verizon (have his name and everything) that Verizon has nothing to do with my IDSL line - as far as they are concerned I have just one phone line in my house and my separate IDSL line is not in their records. Thus, they cannot prohibit anything being done with the line. This seems a little odd - I mean, the first step in getting the line installed required someone from Verizon coming out...yet they say they have no record of my line and in no way are prohibiting anything being done with it
The Verizon rep then told me the only problem could be that Telocity has information on the line that the other ISP (Conectiv, DSLi, whatever) would need for the line and without the info, they could not use the line. He (verizon rep) then said I should be able to get that information from telocity for whatever ISP I switch to (I didn't cancel my telocity line - they said there was no other available "last mile provider" - well there is, but not one that Telocity can work with)
Now, upon getting that information, if there is a technical issue which prohibits my current IDSL line from working when going through Rhythms, etc, and I need a new line - fine. However, if the line can indeed be used, why should I pay for another line installation when the line I already paid for could work?
Now that I know Verizon is not holding anything up, (or it seems that they aren't...) I'll contact the ISP which told me that and ask them, if i can get the information from Telocity, can they see if they can use my current line. I know other NP customers who had their current line switched over, so I would like to see if the same is possible with my line.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-01 18:37:41] | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Yet another update... I just want answers, that's all! Ok, so I called Telocity (see my post above, and the post above that...) regarding the information for my line. Telocity says they do not have that info - NP had it, and now they have no idea where the info would be (?) The telocity rep also stated that for every NP customer they switched, they had to build a new line... I asked if they did any hot cuts and he said no.
Am I getting correct info here? I'm not putting blame on any party at the moment - I am now at the point where I would just like the full story! So Telocity didn't do any hot cuts and has no circuit ID info for my line at all - is this correct? I stated that other ISPs did CLEC to CLEC transfers, so where did they get the needed info? He said he didn't know? Does this have to do with my line being an IDSL line and not being handled by Verizon - as in, Verizon would usually have the needed technical info but since my line didn't wasn't handled by Verizon at all (or so Verizon tells me) that NP had it and now that NP is gone there is no way to obtain this info?
Hey - if i am totally wrong about some of my assumptions, please people, set me straight!  I really just want accurate information and so far, it just seems like something isn't sitting right - NP released the lines, yet I can't get my circuit ID and whatever information other ISPs say they require?
CAN SOMEONE JUST EXPLAIN THIS TO ME CLEARLY? please? pretty please?
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
| | | | | | | | | susangg6
join:2001-03-28
Fremont, CA
| Actually, you are giving her incorrect legal advice. The circuits do not "belong" to bankrupt Northpoint. Northpoint was "renting" them (or more accurately, they were "renting" the right to USE them.
They "belong" to the telephone company (her in Northern Calif, that's PacBell, presumably its Verizon in Carrie's neighborhood).
But: Because there are public interest considerations at work here, they do not "belong" to the telco in the sense that the telco can do or not do what they please with them. The telcos are required to make them available to their competitors. Unfortunately, just HOW they are to do that is not clearly spelled out, and many state regulatory agencies have definitely interpreted what they can and can't do, except in a very broad sense. If our elected representatives could somehow be weaned from their addiction to campaign contributions, they might be prevailed upon to write regulations that clearly spell it out.
Failing that, some state utility regulators have shown willingness to interpret the vague regulations embodied in the telecommunications act of 1996 so as to REQUIRE the telco to make the circuit available. You may want to search this board to see if there are any postings about what your state regulatory agency (in Calif its the PUC) has done, if anything. Go to your state PUC's web site (if they have one) and see what is there.
What can you do? I recommend getting the FAX numbers of the telco (Verizon) and your ISP and sending FAXES to them confirming what you have been told on the telephone, with copies to your PUC. Be sure to get the circuit number (all circuits have numbers, or so I am told) from your ISP. Put the circuit number in your correspondence.
Then call your PUC consumer intake line and insist on speaking with a complaint rep...if you can't figure it out from the web site, ask the PUC consumer rep how an ordinary consumer can file a simple complaint.
Then file it! And be sure to call your local newspaper, find out who does the technology beat. Reporters are always looking for human interest stories about things technical. If you can find a good investigative reporter, he or she can do some of the leg work for you.
I will bet that your circuit suddenly becomes available to be switched! You will have been designated a trouble maker and they will want you to go away. The public relations office for Verizon will instruct the techs to do whatever is necessary to make that happen (unless they are stupider than I think they are....) | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Re: Know what gets me? Thank you susangg for this information..however, you said "Be sure to get the circuit number (all circuits have numbers, or so I am told) from your ISP" - Telocity just told me they do not have the circuit ID - NP had it, and basically, they have no idea how i would get that info. You are right - Verizon is my telephone company and they told me today that they really have nothing to do with my line! (see my other posts ) So who the heck DOES have info on my line!? Verizon doesn't, Telocity doesn't, NP did - argh! No one has yet given me any reason that my current IDSL line cannot be used except that 1)Verizon is hogging it or 2)telocity is hiding my technical info.
Both Verizon and Telocity say "Gee... we aren't doing that" At this point, paying for a new IDSL line to be installed is no big deal - sure I'd like to save the $$ but it's not going to break my bank account, but when things don't seem to make sense I want to find out the answer!
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
| | | | | | | | | | susangg6
join:2001-03-28
Fremont, CA
| Re: Know what gets me? Carrie: Your ISP either knows the circuit number or can easily get it. Megapath had no trouble getting mine. The thing, is they have to ASK for it. Apparently Telocity does not go to bat for its customers. My suggestion is that you go to Telocity's "investor info" page on its web site and get the fax numbers of some high ranking honchos and start bugging them. Be sure to copy your state PUC (or whatever they call it down there on all these faxes and stuff.)
Or you could JUST SHOW UP at your local telco office with a tape recorder (or better yet, your local reporter!!) and have them tell you they can't find your circuit number FOR THE CAMERA. Never underestimate the power of the press.
You might want to see if there's a utility reform group in your area (in Calif. we have one called "TURN") and enlist their aid. Maybe they will file a class complaint or whatever legal remedy your PUC allows.
The other option is (depending on your reason for having DSL and your budget) is to forget Telocity and cough up enough money for a SOHO account with Megapath. They are better at pushing the telcos to do their job. | |
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Kibbles
Premium
join:1999-07-31
Mission Viejo, CA
| Re: Know what gets me?said by susangg:
The other option is (depending on your reason for having DSL and your budget) is to forget Telocity and cough up enough money for a SOHO account with Megapath. They are better at pushing the telcos to do their job.
Not lately...since April 20 no one knows why my NP line ( dead since March 20 ) can`t be used.I like the idea of contacting the PUC just in case the main problem is with my TELCO.
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Netopia router with a green light:( :»www.satsujin.org »www.akita-inu.com | |
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MotaBoy420$
Go Yanks
join:2001-01-02
White Plains, NY
| Carrie,
Telocity should have the circuit ID number. It sounds like they are just BSing you. If you know where the pair for the IDSL comes to your house then look for a tag. The ID number might be on the tag. It was there on my tag and some other line info. | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| My fun IDSL line Regarding Telocity not having my circuit info....this is straight from a letter NP sent to the FCC:
"During the course of the week, starting Friday, March 23, 2001, NorthPoint also provided to its ISPs all company proprietary information 3 regarding Circuit IDs of
subscribers and blanket “letters of authorization” entitling those ISPs to begin to migrate
customers off of the NorthPoint network with the full consent and approval of the company."
So why doesn't Telocity have this info?
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Well, I called Telocity and the person I spoke to seemed very nice - she stated that Telocity should have the curcuit ID etc but that the info was essentially useless to another ISP. She suggested I get the specific information needed and call Telocity back and go from there. Guess I'll do that
--------
Anyway....
Hi all - I really appreciate this input....
susangg - well, the reason I want/need DSL is because I work for a web development company and I do work from home at times. My company doesn't offer DSL - I can get a T-1 or a 56k frame Relay connection through my company, but even with them charging me just cost, it's still extremely expensive - even the 56k frame relay. Cable is available all around me, but not in my particular neighborhood (thanks again to AT&T..)
So basically, DSL is my only real option. As for getting a SOHO account with Megapath, I could spend the money right now and get another IDSL line through DSLi, Conectiv... but they want to install a new line. If they *need* to install a new line due to technical issues - fine! I'll pay the money needed for that, but I would like to know why they cannot use my current IDSL line and so far, no one has provided me with an answer to this question. Telocity can no longer provide IDSL service to me since NP died, so in essence, I have given up on Telocity.
Question: Verizon says they have nothing to do with my IDSL line - could this be accurate? Anyway, if they have nothing to do with my line .... I don't think showing up at the Telco office would help if they claim they aren't involved with my line - but how is this possible? I realize Verizon cannot provide IDSL lines but it seems that they would be involved on some level - Verizon coming out to my location was the first step in setting up the line in the first place.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 12:01:58] | |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| Re: My fun IDSL line said by carrieg:
Question: Verizon says they have nothing to do with my IDSL line - could this be accurate?
It's surprising Verizon ever sees daylight from where they have their head!
As you probably remember I also had IDSL with NP. (BTW-Green light still on) Verizon put the wires in. I talked to the Verizon tech as he was connecting it. I watched him check the main cable to get the right pair. It's their copper. NP paid them to use Verizon copper. Once it's at the CO then Covad or whoever connects it to their equipment.
I'm letting you do all of up front work before I attempt DSL again. Soon, you'll be able to rent yourself out as a DSL consultant;) Keep fighting!
Ron | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Re: My fun IDSL line said by beeron:
As you probably remember I also had IDSL with NP. (BTW-Green light still on) Verizon put the wires in. I talked to the Verizon tech as he was connecting it. I watched him check the main cable to get the right pair. It's their copper. NP paid them to use Verizon copper. Once it's at the CO then Covad or whoever connects it to their equipment.
Perhaps then when the Verizon rep stated that they had nothing to do with the IDSL line, they mean that once it was set up, it was out of their hands? Is it usual for them not to have any record of the line going into my house? Anyway, I just got off the phone with Conectiv - they stated that Verizon prohibits them from doing hot cuts, period. The Conectiv rep states that she had a letter right in front of her telling her that they (Conectiv) could NOT do hot cuts. Looks like I have to call Verizon back and find out, once again, why I am getting different stories. Or maybe it's limited to Conectiv - who the heck knows - argh!
Oh my GOODNESS this is frustrating!!!
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Oh FORGET IT! Called Verizon - now they say "well if that is what Conectiv says then that's probably in their contract." huh? The person at Verizon yesterday was just as insistent as the person at Conectiv today : Verizon: "we are in no way prohibiting hot cuts on your line -we aren't involved with that line so we can't keep you from having something like that done" Conectiv: "I have a letter right here from verizon prohibiting this"
Who the heck even owns my line at this point!?!? Why can't I just get a straight answer??
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO CAN HELP? I should just say forget and pay for a brand new line to be installed - but that won't satisfy my curiosity
Added:
Just looked back at something susangg said regarding the phone company owning the line but not necessarily being able to prohibit certain things being done on the line. It seems, I guess, that is what Verizon is doing in the Conectiv case? So Verizon technically owns my line... I am getting confused. Anyone want to provide a flowchart or something?
I also emailed DSLi and asked what technical info they needed for my line (see my post waaaay in the beginning of this thread I am totally hogging  ) since Telocity said they would provide the info. Let's see what happens... dsli didnt say anything about Verizon not allowing hot cuts...
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 15:37:39] | |
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GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| Re: Oh FORGET IT! Okay I will try to help you out but I am not sure we can get anywhere. I guess the real reason I am writing this is because I have the background with both the ILEC's and CLEC's in knowing procedures in both companies. First of all the ILEC has record of EVERY line that is in use whether its by the ILEC or CLEC. They have to so that the line (the copper pr that is connected at several differnt junction boxes between the CO and your DMARC) isnt used for POTS service or another DSL service to another location. Also the line technically is OWNED by the ILECs the line is then LEASED to the CLECs for use. What you need to do is this in my humble opinion: First get the circuit ID number, the ILEC has this. THis is the one of several ways for them to identify your circuit and the status of it (whether its in use by an ilec who has ownership, pending facilities, installed etc.) The IlECs also were given the LOA according to an FCC filing showing that they have the authorization to do cuts if the ISP shows the authorization. (this just allows the ILEC to be on the same page as the CLEC's and ISP's that are doing cutovers) The CLEC's dont have the database on others circuits and usually are only able to get it from your former CLEC or ISP. The ILEC however has ATLEAST your circuit ID number. If you need any information that is where i would start. They can access these records by addresss, name, and telephone number, (what you need to ask is for all the circuits that are connected to your address.) If you need any other questions answered as far as getting information from the ILEC is concerned, please dont hesitate to reply. I hope this information helps.
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Matthew
Ex-Northpoint, Qwest, Covad OSP Network Technician | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Conectiv, Rhythms, Verizon oh my! ;) I don't mean to make these posts full length novels. They just come out that way.
Thanks again to all who are providing input I address some specific people below...
Here is where I am now:
This afternoon: A friend of mine knows someone at Network Access Solutions, and suggested I contact him. NAS can provide me with service, though they are more business oriented so the prices are high for residential users like me ($200/month for IDSL, $400 modem..) - HOWEVER, he was able to answer some of my questions, and confirm what some of you all have been saying here. (for those needing business DSL lines, you might want to look into NAS - NO, I do not work for them! I was just very pleased with their customer service - the person I spoke to answered my questions and is very willing to work with people on pricing, etc.) Anyway, I asked about hot cuts and such. He stated that they could absolutely do a hot cut, and they have done this for other NP customers. Since I have an existing IDSL line, he stated that there is no need to install a new line. All that was really needed was the circuit ID which, as other people here in this thread suggested, should be on a tag where the pair comes into my house. Now, Telocity told me the circuit ID would do me no good, since they install a new circuit, even with hot cuts. I found the same info in this DSLR forum, regarding using a new circuit when doing a hot cut: (»Northpoint DSL went down in Brooklyn 5/1)
*Not* needing my circuit ID/number, though, doesn't coincide with what the guy at NAS said and what people here on DSLR and are saying, so I assume I do need the circuit ID. I am guessing that even though they install a new circuit in a hot cut, they would still need the old circuit ID. (maybe?) ANYWAY, I then called Telocity back and asked for the circuit ID - they gave it to me this time. They said they *assumed* this number was the circuit ID. I got home a little while ago and went to check for the tag where the pair enters my townhouse to see if the numbers there matched the numbers telocity gave me....well, I feel rather stupid. I couldn't find a tag, but I'll check again in daylight (was out in the dark with a flashlight...) Between the lack of light, the numerous wires (I live in a building with four townhouses and all the wires for each townhouse are in the same spot) and, well, bugs and debris (ick) around everything, I wasn't able to find any tag, and it was very difficult to actually see which line was mine (don't laugh at me! I hear you all laughing! :P) So either there is no tag on my line, the tag is hard to find, or I'm a moron. I'll check again in the morning.
So it does seem that a hot cut is possible barring technical issues. I called DSLi to see if they could indeed use my existing line if I have the circuit number, etc but they told me I had to call tomorrow when the sales reps were in. Anyone know how cooperative Rhythms is with things like this? (since that is who DSLi would be using for my line)
GarageJoe - your info was helpful. So basically, when Verizon said they had no record of my IDSL line at my location, they didn't know what they were talking about? That's annoying! I guess that answers my earlier question to susangg about going to the telco and demanding the circuit number - I asked what good that would do if they don't have that info but it seems that they *do* and have that info and for whatever reason, told me differently. Sheesh - is that strange or what?! So Ok - my old CLEC (NP) won't have the circuit ID because they don't exist Verizon should have it - perhaps I should call them again and see what they say. Telocity first told me they had no such thing, but upon calling back, the did have the info.
Another ques: what is this deal with Conectiv then - saying Verizon is prohibiting hot cuts? I still can't figure that one out. I guess the ILECs have the authorization to do hot cuts but they can prohibit them if they choose? (that seems to be what susangg was saying in another post too....) Yet another ques: Looking at this distance charts on DSLR, it states that Rhythms (the CLEC I would use if i went with DSLi - and yes, I know they may go the same way as NP  which is why I have been checking out Conectiv.) can provide 208SDSL up to 19000 ft from the CO. I am 18000 ft - I will have to ask DSLi tomorrow why I am unable to get that type of SDSL? Oh and speaking of Rhythms (I am just *full* of questions - sorry everyone, I just really like to get full information on a situation!) I saw while looking at this thread (»DSLi's iDSL Why not 144?) regarding some Rhythms IDSL customers getting 128kbps instead of 144kbps. Someone stated that "if you are in a GTE/Verizon area, they won't allow the CLEC to use the 'D' channel (16k) of the ISDN line they're providing to the CLEC so you are limited to 128k speeds in Verizon territory." That seems odd because when I am in Verizon territory and when I had my IDSL line through NP, my speeds were in the 130kbps range, so they must have been using the D channel. I do a lot of work from home, including uploading so I really don't want to wind up with a 128 IDSL line when I can get 144...I am surprised that Rhythms is even taking customers since I read in a few places that they weren't taking new customers? Or is that in just some areas? Telocity, for whatever reason, was unable to move me to Rhythms.
Sighs: I'm glad the Verizon techs were able to help you out... of course your response has generated more questions I see what you're saying about the CLEC not wanting to bother with a hot cut...what I am still curious about is, that if ILECs like Verizon would *rather* do hot cuts, as you suggested, I wonder why Connectiv is saying that they would like to do a hot cut but Verizon won't let them? The person I spoke with today at Conectiv stated flatly that she had a letter right in front of her from Verizon stating that they must install new lines - no hot cuts! I haven't yet received what I consider a definitive answer from Verizon on the Conectiv issue. The Conectiv situation seems to be the exact opposite of exact what you have experienced - unless Conectiv doesn't really want to do hot cuts and is blaming Verizon? I swear I'll get to the bottom of this somehow! And susangg - I haven't forgotten your suggestion about contacting my state regulatory agency...
Ok, well, I am sure I'll have new info tomorrow to post Maybe I'll even have more answers! (ha ha ha ha!) Thanks again to all who have provided input... I hope somehow, all my yacking about this on DSLR has provided someone out there with some helpful info.
(Oh - and the covad site now says I qualify for dsl - when I started this thread (which I am totally hogging ) I was saying that some places said I could use Covad, yet the Covad site said I couldn't....well now the Covad web site says I qualify. Weird.)
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Re: Oh FORGET IT! I have a massive post addressing a lot of items and people's suggestions here, ready to post... but it triggered something that requires it to be looked at by the moderators first (not sure what...) before it gets posted here. Just FYI...hopefully it will show up soon
Edit - ah, I see i has been added, above
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[text was edited by author 2001-05-03 01:40:04] | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Short recap and new info Yeah, me again...
I have been trying to get a straight answer from someone as to WHY no one can switch my current Northpoint IDSL line (functional in that it works fine but Northpoint no longer exists so it doesn't "go anywhere”)
From what I have now found out, it seems that many cases, the CLEC doesn’t want to do the hot cut (which is what “sighs” suggested)
Network Access Solutions said they could indeed do a hot cut on my line. I am not going with NAS because their prices are just too high for a residential person like me, but from what I know of them, they’re excellent for those who need business lines. To do a hot cut I was told they would need the
circuit ID. Since NAS is a LEC, I assume they have just chosen to do hot cuts…..
When I called Conectiv about just transferring my line, they said Verizon is prohibiting them from doing that and they had to install a new one. I called Verizon and they said they were not, so I called Conectiv back an they insisted they had a letter right there, stating that they could not do that as per Verizon.
Ok - so I called DSLi back and asked again why they could not do a hot cut
on my line. The first time I asked they told me there was "info" on my line
that my old ISP had (Telocity) which they needed and they didn't have it
so they couldn't use my current line. After getting a million stories on
that (again, see my other posts...) I got the circuit ID and
such from Telocity....called DSLi back today. This time the guy said they cold
not do a hot cut because the CLEC they use (Rhythms) would not allow them
to do it for new customers - they switched current DSLi customers who were
stranded by Northpoint, but would not do hot cuts for new customers - a
new line needed to be installed. So what I gather is that
Rhythms, chooses not to do hot cuts and NAS chooses to do them.
I am not sure why Conectiv says they are prohibited from Verizon
to do hot cuts....
OK! I then found out that if I use DSLi as my ISP with Rhythms as my CLEC
for a 144 IDSL line, it would be $149 line installation and $79.95/month.
I can use my current IDSL modem. HOWEVER, Rhythms has some technology
which allows them to provide 384/384 SDSL to people under 19000 ft from
the CO - I am 18000. If I went with SDSL via DSLi and Rhythms, it would be
a $149 line installation charge, $89.95/month and $169 for the modem. They
have to check my line before guaranteeing that I could get SDSL - if they
check and I can't get the SDSL, I wouldn't be held to anything - I would
then have the option of signing up for the IDSL service.
What do people think – does it make sense that
many CLECs are perhaps just deciding not to do line transfers (hot cuts, whatever…) and some are willing?
And – the question of the day! Should go for the 384 SDSL and pay 10 dollars more
per month and an extra $169 for the modem, or sick with 144 and save the $$?
Input is appreciated
At this point, I guess I will just go with one of the DSLi packages (they said I don’t have to sign a contract..)
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
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GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| Re: Short recap and new info LOL, well after along run around I would say congrats that you are finally getting to the bottom of your problem. First of all I would try to go with the SDSL service, its faster and better for only 10 more a month I believe its worth it. However I must admit I dont believe that verizon will do it for you for I believe there specs are that you are to far away. If that is true, they wont be able to supply you with a SDSL line. But then again its worth a shot you have nothing to lose. Again I hope it all works out for you for the best.
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Matthew
Ex-Northpoint, Qwest, Covad OSP Network Technician | |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Re: Short recap and new info Hiya,
Thanks...well, the $10 more a month isn't a big deal (I can easily economize enough to save $10 a month elsewhere) but I have to get a new modem which is $169. (no contract though)
I went ahead and signed up for SDSL service with DSLi/Rhythms. As for the distance, I was surprised also that I could get something besides IDSL, but the rep at DSLi said that Rhythms has some technology which allows this speed at my distance from the CO. ?? *shrug* I guess I'll see - if they indeed find out I can't get the SDSL service, I'll just go back to my standard IDSL service, most likely with DSLi and Rhythms.
I realize Rhythms is in...not very good shape and could go the same way as Northpoint.... in which case if DSLi then has to switch me to another LEC (assuming one is available and it's not another Telocity situation) I will be downgraded to IDSL, and I guess I'll have a SDSL modem I can't use.
I can't really complain about paying for line installation and a modem though - when I signed up for Northpoint/PSN I paid *no* modem or installation charge because of a rebate. All that was refunded *and* I got a digital camera. Great deal yes - but of course those great deals probably helped lead to Northpoint's demise... and the $39.95/month via PSN - well PSN went belly up too! I guess you get what you pay for....So I guess technically, any way you look at it, I got a free IDSL modem from Northpoint
I guess I'll assume it is easier/cheaper for Rhythms to install a new line rather than use my existing one (if I had gone with the IDSL service) so I guess for now, I will have to assume that the whole "hot cut" question revolves around whether the CLEC wants to do them or not.
Hey, if anyone else gets additional info on that or anything else, I'd like to hear it. Just because I broke down and finally handed over my credit card for dsl service doesn't mean I am no longer curious about these issues. Me screaming yesterday morning as I tried to upload some large files for a client prior to going into the office, and watching them take an hour to do, and then having my dial-up connection bomb out in the middle helped push me to the "hand over credit card" stage.
People have been saying that the ILECs are going to push everyone else out of the DSL market. Where does that leave people like me, who can't get service through them?
And you know, I never did find my circuit ID tag. Ah well.
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
| | | | | | | | | | hufnagel
join:2001-03-24
Berkeley Heights, NJ
| On 03/08/2001 Telocity sent a NorthPoint install tech out to my place to test and set up the line. Had the PFU (more on this later) do the connect test right at my phone box (much to his amazement.) Then he did something that I'll love until the day I die... he TAGGED THE LINE WITH IT'S PON# !!!!!!
Just let someone tell me they don't know the circuit number!
And to think I almost threw the tag out! Think I'll GLUE it to the wire in a minute.
FYI: PFU == pimply faced youth (don't think the kid was old enough to SHAVE, much less drive.) | |
| | coolkurg
join:2001-06-13
Palm Beach Gardens, FL
| said by strosien:
A guy from Covad was spouting off to me yesterday in response to my question about the 15000' limit and he said that NP was using "hubs" (he said it was like a mini-CO) in the line to increase distance and that Covad does not use those. I had never heard of such a thing. He could not help me further.
Can anyone shed some light on this hub stuff??.
I know this is a reply to a pretty old post, and I didn't check the other two pages of replies yet, but what the hey.. The "hub" he was most likely talking about is a repeater device. It's a device that lies between the central office and your home and receives all incoming voice/data traffic bound for your home and boosts the signal and re-transmits it from there to your house. That essentially would make your distance to your line distance the distance from your house to the repeater - virtually eliminating the problem of being too far away from the C.O. Many telcos and ISPs are beginning to use these to increase the number of subscribing users to help increase competition and bring in some more revenue. These "repeaters" often exist inside of the large telco boxes that sit off to the side of the road near the entrances to neighborhoods. I believe I recently got my ADSL from Telocity installed due to these repeaters getting installed in my neighborhood. Previously, my Northpoint IDSL service was the only service in my area. I don't believe my C.O. has changed. | |
| | | strosien
join:2000-07-08
Livonia, MI | Re: Different stories from everyone - help!! Thanks for the post. Too bad I have no option but Time Warner RR, but thats the way it goes.
Scott | |
| Anon
| i watched the verizon tech like a hawk, fed him soda's...pumped him to help me figure this out. He swears that they would like nothing better than to do a hot swap...but that the clecs refuse. He makes a valid point...he has people yelling at him all day, a backlog a mile long...and from his point of view rhythms is forcing them to run whole new lines because it's easier for THEM. given what someone said earlier about how the clec might have to go dig for the info for a 'hot swap' (sorry if i simplify..i'm a 'fake geek' ) and that kinda begins to make sense to me.
i'm finally up...i feel like i've been through a war....and the only thing i understand for sure about this process is that absolutely EVERYONE was lying to me every inch of the way.
(edited to add....) the one FACT i know...is that BOTH the first time i went through this mess and the second time...it was a verizon rep who went above and beyond, bent the rules, and ended my torture.
the first time, i flat out burst into tears and the verizon guys redid the northpoint wiring and it all worked..(after northpoint had been screaming for weeks it was a verizon problem)
this time.well...the verizon rep went above and beyond. he bent the rules and i'm up.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 22:11:34] | |
| | Anon | I was employed at NP and the reason other CLECS will not go to 18k is not due to any "Hub" it's simply the fact that SDSL will not be stable after 15k. NP offered up to 18k and the problems with the service were unbelievable,(many interuptions with service). It was only in Jan that NP decided to sell to 15kf only and save some money on repeat "truck rolls". By that time Verizon had killed us by pulling out of the sale. anyway.....NP has the same basic DSLAMS as other CLECS. No special "Hubs". | |
| |
See 6 replies to this post | |
| Anon | carrie,
i got the same line from NAS, and i don't know...i just don't believe them. I'll admit that it was a month ago, but i got the same bull from the isp that i signed with regarding rhythms. In my case it was a story about how rhythms and northpoint use the same equipment..and that a 'hot cut' should be a piece of cake. Well, it was no piece of cake...and at the last minute unfamiliarity with my EQUIPMENT almost cost me another 2 weeks getting set up.
So so much for what they SAY.
mY question for those of you who work in the industry...is who gets paid for what? Someone once said..follow the money. The tech guys from verizon don't come out and work for free..who is paying them? And when the rhythms tech comes to your place to connect the new 'pair' (or whatever you call it) is that billed back to the isp?
You see where i'm going with this? If rhythms has a 'fixed price' installation charge to the isp, then it would behoove rhythms to do anything they can to avoid all this useless labor driving around the countryside reinventing the wheel. But if they are charging the isp for each one of these service calls...then the whole thing is just a windfall if they work it right.
It could be that NAS is charging higher prices at the outset..and providing 'fixed rate' installation charges.
I'm completely guessing. But i would love to know. | |
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GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| Re: Different stories from everyone - help!! So you want to follow the money huh? LOL well I will try to help out. (how come I feel like a teacher everytime i read this thread, not that I mind but I feel very inadequate.) Anyway on to THIS lesson at hand. Everyone take out your notebooks again for there will be a test next week. Lets start with your house. You own your IW. that your landlord, or other leasing company or legal entity. But to be basic no other telecommunication company owns your line. Even if you sign a contract with a company to do work and maintain it, you own your lines. Up to the DMARC, NIC, or MPOE. (for those of you taking notes these basically all mean the same location however technically are in use in different meanings.) Beyond the DMARC, the ILEC owns the lines, you "lease" the line when you order phone service but you are not the one required to maintain the lines for the agreement the ILEC makes with you when you order service is that they will provide "service" to you. this is all the way to the central office going thru F1's F2's and sometimes even F3's In the central office where the lines from your house come in, they have what we call block's that have jumper wires connected to it. These wires connect this line in the central office to this piece of equipment and without getting to complicated this is where your CLEC service comes in that provides DSL service this block connects to the blocks that provide service. Now that we understand the line in whole lets go over who pays for what. The first part of the order is the ILEC doing there provisioning. This means that they do the jumper connection (between the CLEC block and the outside plant that is known as the F1 they connect the F1 to the F2 in the SAC or B-box (ILECS have different names for this box) they then connect your F2 to your drop that goes to your house (this is the case only if you dont have anymore facilities like a F3 or more) the drop is what is connected to your DMARC. This is all taken care of by the ILEC, the CLEC will maintain the cards in the CO but mainly are taking care ofyour IW for your DSL service they "maintain it for you". now to get more specific about who exactly pays for the charges. Obviously the ILEC isnt going to fix or condition the line for free. These charges are passed on to the CLEC. Now this is where it gets dicey. Depending on the contract that the CLEC has with the ISP sometimes there are flat charges for the "normal conditioning" and extra's will be added, well extra. for example usually CLECs dont pay for bridge tap removal. The ISP would have to pay extra for that. This flat fee usually pays for the CLEC to have the ILEC condition the line and to connect to the circuit to the IW and test the IW. This is all included in that flat fee. I am sorry that I make this is complicated. I hope this information helps you all a little more. Please dont hesitate to ask any questions should they arise.
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Matthew
Ex-Northpoint, Qwest, Covad OSP Network Technician | |
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SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| Re: Different stories from everyone - help!! Let's see if I got this, I own the IW and Verizon owns the CO and the copper from the CO to my IW? Got it!
Carrie,
I went outside and looked at the NI (network interface) and opened up the part that says telco only. Probably commited some federal crime:). Anyway, the Verizon tech, bless his heart, left a neat little tag IDing the line and the fact that it's Northpoint. Don't know if they did the same for you. Take a look but don't let the Telco Cops see you.
Ron | |
| | Anon | I received this email from Megapath today (Megapath, IMHO, is the best ISP available and ALWAYS bent over backwards to meet my needs.) Anyway...onto the email:
"We previously communicated that we placed an order to reprovision your DSL
service, but encountered facilities issues with available circuits from your
local phone company. We then informed you that MegaPath would reprovision
using a "hot cut" process. This process involves the phone company
switching the existing circuit from the former NorthPoint line to a new
circuit provisioned by Rhythms. MegaPath chose this alternative as the only
option available to reprovision your line due to facilities issues - meaning
there were no circuits available to activate your service.
Unfortunately, we are unable to activate your line at this time, as the
telephone company is no longer doing hot cuts due to low success rates.
Their database continues to show there are no circuits available.
The purpose of this letter is to (a) explain the current situation, (b)
detail actions MegaPath has taken, and (c) outline alternative access
solutions / sources that may be available for your Internet connectivity.
Question: Why are there no circuits available when I previously had one for
my MegaPath DSL line through NorthPoint?
Answer: The phone company must completely clear a circuit in their database
to confirm that it is not in use prior to making it available for new
services. Although the NorthPoint lines have been available for over a
month, the circuits have not been released by the phone company because they
still show that they are in use and not available for assignment of new
services. The demand for new circuits and non-release of old circuits
falsely shows a shortage of circuit availability in the telephone company's
database.
Question: How has MegaPath handled this situation?
Answer: MegaPath repeatedly resubmitted your order after it was rejected for
lack of circuit availability. We repeated our requests for service
immediately after the previous order was rejected to increase our chances of
obtaining recently released circuits.
Unfortunately, after many attempts, we were not successful
in obtaining the circuit needed for your new service.
Question: What other alternatives do I have?
Answer: Although MegaPath cannot recommend an exact solution that will fit
your specific business needs, we recommend www.GetConnected.com.
GetConnected.com will allow you to search for a variety of broadband
connection options that are available in your location.
Question: Can I go directly to the phone company and get DSL service?
Answer: The phone company may be able to offer you ADSL service. While this
may not beoptimal for your specific business needs, an ADSL connection is
provisioned over your existing voice line; therefore, you do not need a new
circuit assigned. You will need to determine if the restricted upload
speeds meet your requirements.
We have enjoyed serving your broadband solution needs and while we regret
losing you as a customer, we hope this information will assist you in
locating a new provider.
Sincerely,
MegaPath Networks"
A sad day indeed. Since the phone company has no idea what they are doing, we all get screwed. The End. | |
| | susangg6
join:2001-03-28
Fremont, CA
| Re: This should clear things up for everyone... This cries out for a LAWSUIT! It's a blatant violation of the telecommunications act of 1996. It's CLASS ACTION time!
Where are Megapath's lawyers? Where is TURN?
Are they going to sit back and take this crap? If they don't sic their lawyers on the scumbag Bells, they will go down and that would be a shame! | |
| |
Bucko9
join:2001-04-24
Portland, OR | The same this happened to me with Telocity and Pacific Bell. I contacted the California Public Utilities Commission and they have given me some hope that a solution can be reached. . . | |
| | | susangg6
join:2001-03-28
Fremont, CA
| Re: This should clear things up for everyone... Good for you, Bucko! FIGHT BACK!
Megapath called today to tell me that my DSL line was up and ready ... but when Cody in tech support tried to ping it, he couldn't find it...so he got Rhythms on the line and they tried together, no luck...Cody called me back an hour later and said that the telco (Pac Bell) was replacing all the jumpers for a whole bunch of customers and that they would work through the weekend to complete this and I should have my DSL up and running no later than noon on Tuesday. Of course, Pac Bell had neglected to tell anyone that there was a "jumper problem..."
Cody said that the "new line" had been tested and passed and the "provisioning" process was completed.
We'll see! | |
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