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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| reply to MotaBoy420$
My fun IDSL line
Regarding Telocity not having my circuit info....this is straight from a letter NP sent to the FCC:
"During the course of the week, starting Friday, March 23, 2001, NorthPoint also provided to its ISPs all company proprietary information 3 regarding Circuit IDs of
subscribers and blanket “letters of authorization” entitling those ISPs to begin to migrate
customers off of the NorthPoint network with the full consent and approval of the company."
So why doesn't Telocity have this info?
-------
Well, I called Telocity and the person I spoke to seemed very nice - she stated that Telocity should have the curcuit ID etc but that the info was essentially useless to another ISP. She suggested I get the specific information needed and call Telocity back and go from there. Guess I'll do that
--------
Anyway....
Hi all - I really appreciate this input....
susangg - well, the reason I want/need DSL is because I work for a web development company and I do work from home at times. My company doesn't offer DSL - I can get a T-1 or a 56k frame Relay connection through my company, but even with them charging me just cost, it's still extremely expensive - even the 56k frame relay. Cable is available all around me, but not in my particular neighborhood (thanks again to AT&T..)
So basically, DSL is my only real option. As for getting a SOHO account with Megapath, I could spend the money right now and get another IDSL line through DSLi, Conectiv... but they want to install a new line. If they *need* to install a new line due to technical issues - fine! I'll pay the money needed for that, but I would like to know why they cannot use my current IDSL line and so far, no one has provided me with an answer to this question. Telocity can no longer provide IDSL service to me since NP died, so in essence, I have given up on Telocity.
Question: Verizon says they have nothing to do with my IDSL line - could this be accurate? Anyway, if they have nothing to do with my line .... I don't think showing up at the Telco office would help if they claim they aren't involved with my line - but how is this possible? I realize Verizon cannot provide IDSL lines but it seems that they would be involved on some level - Verizon coming out to my location was the first step in setting up the line in the first place.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 12:01:58] | |
SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Comcast
| said by carrieg:
Question: Verizon says they have nothing to do with my IDSL line - could this be accurate?
It's surprising Verizon ever sees daylight from where they have their head!
As you probably remember I also had IDSL with NP. (BTW-Green light still on) Verizon put the wires in. I talked to the Verizon tech as he was connecting it. I watched him check the main cable to get the right pair. It's their copper. NP paid them to use Verizon copper. Once it's at the CO then Covad or whoever connects it to their equipment.
I'm letting you do all of up front work before I attempt DSL again. Soon, you'll be able to rent yourself out as a DSL consultant;) Keep fighting!
Ron | |
carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| said by beeron:
As you probably remember I also had IDSL with NP. (BTW-Green light still on) Verizon put the wires in. I talked to the Verizon tech as he was connecting it. I watched him check the main cable to get the right pair. It's their copper. NP paid them to use Verizon copper. Once it's at the CO then Covad or whoever connects it to their equipment.
Perhaps then when the Verizon rep stated that they had nothing to do with the IDSL line, they mean that once it was set up, it was out of their hands? Is it usual for them not to have any record of the line going into my house? Anyway, I just got off the phone with Conectiv - they stated that Verizon prohibits them from doing hot cuts, period. The Conectiv rep states that she had a letter right in front of her telling her that they (Conectiv) could NOT do hot cuts. Looks like I have to call Verizon back and find out, once again, why I am getting different stories. Or maybe it's limited to Conectiv - who the heck knows - argh!
Oh my GOODNESS this is frustrating!!!
--
Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Oh FORGET IT!
Called Verizon - now they say "well if that is what Conectiv says then that's probably in their contract." huh? The person at Verizon yesterday was just as insistent as the person at Conectiv today : Verizon: "we are in no way prohibiting hot cuts on your line -we aren't involved with that line so we can't keep you from having something like that done" Conectiv: "I have a letter right here from verizon prohibiting this"
Who the heck even owns my line at this point!?!? Why can't I just get a straight answer??
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO CAN HELP? I should just say forget and pay for a brand new line to be installed - but that won't satisfy my curiosity
Added:
Just looked back at something susangg said regarding the phone company owning the line but not necessarily being able to prohibit certain things being done on the line. It seems, I guess, that is what Verizon is doing in the Conectiv case? So Verizon technically owns my line... I am getting confused. Anyone want to provide a flowchart or something?
I also emailed DSLi and asked what technical info they needed for my line (see my post waaaay in the beginning of this thread I am totally hogging  ) since Telocity said they would provide the info. Let's see what happens... dsli didnt say anything about Verizon not allowing hot cuts...
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 15:37:39] | |
GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| Okay I will try to help you out but I am not sure we can get anywhere. I guess the real reason I am writing this is because I have the background with both the ILEC's and CLEC's in knowing procedures in both companies. First of all the ILEC has record of EVERY line that is in use whether its by the ILEC or CLEC. They have to so that the line (the copper pr that is connected at several differnt junction boxes between the CO and your DMARC) isnt used for POTS service or another DSL service to another location. Also the line technically is OWNED by the ILECs the line is then LEASED to the CLECs for use. What you need to do is this in my humble opinion: First get the circuit ID number, the ILEC has this. THis is the one of several ways for them to identify your circuit and the status of it (whether its in use by an ilec who has ownership, pending facilities, installed etc.) The IlECs also were given the LOA according to an FCC filing showing that they have the authorization to do cuts if the ISP shows the authorization. (this just allows the ILEC to be on the same page as the CLEC's and ISP's that are doing cutovers) The CLEC's dont have the database on others circuits and usually are only able to get it from your former CLEC or ISP. The ILEC however has ATLEAST your circuit ID number. If you need any information that is where i would start. They can access these records by addresss, name, and telephone number, (what you need to ask is for all the circuits that are connected to your address.) If you need any other questions answered as far as getting information from the ILEC is concerned, please dont hesitate to reply. I hope this information helps.
--
Matthew
Ex-Northpoint, Qwest, Covad OSP Network Technician | |
Anon
| reply to carrieg2
Re: Different stories from everyone - help!!
i watched the verizon tech like a hawk, fed him soda's...pumped him to help me figure this out. He swears that they would like nothing better than to do a hot swap...but that the clecs refuse. He makes a valid point...he has people yelling at him all day, a backlog a mile long...and from his point of view rhythms is forcing them to run whole new lines because it's easier for THEM. given what someone said earlier about how the clec might have to go dig for the info for a 'hot swap' (sorry if i simplify..i'm a 'fake geek' ) and that kinda begins to make sense to me.
i'm finally up...i feel like i've been through a war....and the only thing i understand for sure about this process is that absolutely EVERYONE was lying to me every inch of the way.
(edited to add....) the one FACT i know...is that BOTH the first time i went through this mess and the second time...it was a verizon rep who went above and beyond, bent the rules, and ended my torture.
the first time, i flat out burst into tears and the verizon guys redid the northpoint wiring and it all worked..(after northpoint had been screaming for weeks it was a verizon problem)
this time.well...the verizon rep went above and beyond. he bent the rules and i'm up.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 22:11:34] | |
carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| reply to GarageJoe
Conectiv, Rhythms, Verizon oh my! ;)
I don't mean to make these posts full length novels. They just come out that way.
Thanks again to all who are providing input  I address some specific people below...
Here is where I am now:
This afternoon: A friend of mine knows someone at Network Access Solutions, and suggested I contact him. NAS can provide me with service, though they are more business oriented so the prices are high for residential users like me ($200/month for IDSL, $400 modem..) - HOWEVER, he was able to answer some of my questions, and confirm what some of you all have been saying here. (for those needing business DSL lines, you might want to look into NAS - NO, I do not work for them! I was just very pleased with their customer service - the person I spoke to answered my questions and is very willing to work with people on pricing, etc.) Anyway, I asked about hot cuts and such. He stated that they could absolutely do a hot cut, and they have done this for other NP customers. Since I have an existing IDSL line, he stated that there is no need to install a new line. All that was really needed was the circuit ID which, as other people here in this thread suggested, should be on a tag where the pair comes into my house. Now, Telocity told me the circuit ID would do me no good, since they install a new circuit, even with hot cuts. I found the same info in this DSLR forum, regarding using a new circuit when doing a hot cut: (»Northpoint DSL went down in Brooklyn 5/1)
*Not* needing my circuit ID/number, though, doesn't coincide with what the guy at NAS said and what people here on DSLR and are saying, so I assume I do need the circuit ID. I am guessing that even though they install a new circuit in a hot cut, they would still need the old circuit ID. (maybe?) ANYWAY, I then called Telocity back and asked for the circuit ID - they gave it to me this time. They said they *assumed* this number was the circuit ID. I got home a little while ago and went to check for the tag where the pair enters my townhouse to see if the numbers there matched the numbers telocity gave me....well, I feel rather stupid. I couldn't find a tag, but I'll check again in daylight (was out in the dark with a flashlight...) Between the lack of light, the numerous wires (I live in a building with four townhouses and all the wires for each townhouse are in the same spot) and, well, bugs and debris (ick) around everything, I wasn't able to find any tag, and it was very difficult to actually see which line was mine (don't laugh at me! I hear you all laughing! :P) So either there is no tag on my line, the tag is hard to find, or I'm a moron. I'll check again in the morning.
So it does seem that a hot cut is possible barring technical issues. I called DSLi to see if they could indeed use my existing line if I have the circuit number, etc but they told me I had to call tomorrow when the sales reps were in. Anyone know how cooperative Rhythms is with things like this? (since that is who DSLi would be using for my line)
GarageJoe - your info was helpful. So basically, when Verizon said they had no record of my IDSL line at my location, they didn't know what they were talking about? That's annoying! I guess that answers my earlier question to susangg about going to the telco and demanding the circuit number - I asked what good that would do if they don't have that info but it seems that they *do* and have that info and for whatever reason, told me differently. Sheesh - is that strange or what?! So Ok - my old CLEC (NP) won't have the circuit ID because they don't exist Verizon should have it - perhaps I should call them again and see what they say. Telocity first told me they had no such thing, but upon calling back, the did have the info.
Another ques: what is this deal with Conectiv then - saying Verizon is prohibiting hot cuts? I still can't figure that one out. I guess the ILECs have the authorization to do hot cuts but they can prohibit them if they choose? (that seems to be what susangg was saying in another post too....) Yet another ques: Looking at this distance charts on DSLR, it states that Rhythms (the CLEC I would use if i went with DSLi - and yes, I know they may go the same way as NP  which is why I have been checking out Conectiv.) can provide 208SDSL up to 19000 ft from the CO. I am 18000 ft - I will have to ask DSLi tomorrow why I am unable to get that type of SDSL? Oh and speaking of Rhythms (I am just *full* of questions - sorry everyone, I just really like to get full information on a situation!) I saw while looking at this thread (»DSLi's iDSL Why not 144?) regarding some Rhythms IDSL customers getting 128kbps instead of 144kbps. Someone stated that "if you are in a GTE/Verizon area, they won't allow the CLEC to use the 'D' channel (16k) of the ISDN line they're providing to the CLEC so you are limited to 128k speeds in Verizon territory." That seems odd because when I am in Verizon territory and when I had my IDSL line through NP, my speeds were in the 130kbps range, so they must have been using the D channel. I do a lot of work from home, including uploading so I really don't want to wind up with a 128 IDSL line when I can get 144...I am surprised that Rhythms is even taking customers since I read in a few places that they weren't taking new customers? Or is that in just some areas? Telocity, for whatever reason, was unable to move me to Rhythms.
Sighs: I'm glad the Verizon techs were able to help you out... of course your response has generated more questions I see what you're saying about the CLEC not wanting to bother with a hot cut...what I am still curious about is, that if ILECs like Verizon would *rather* do hot cuts, as you suggested, I wonder why Connectiv is saying that they would like to do a hot cut but Verizon won't let them? The person I spoke with today at Conectiv stated flatly that she had a letter right in front of her from Verizon stating that they must install new lines - no hot cuts! I haven't yet received what I consider a definitive answer from Verizon on the Conectiv issue. The Conectiv situation seems to be the exact opposite of exact what you have experienced - unless Conectiv doesn't really want to do hot cuts and is blaming Verizon? I swear I'll get to the bottom of this somehow! And susangg - I haven't forgotten your suggestion about contacting my state regulatory agency...
Ok, well, I am sure I'll have new info tomorrow to post Maybe I'll even have more answers! (ha ha ha ha!) Thanks again to all who have provided input... I hope somehow, all my yacking about this on DSLR has provided someone out there with some helpful info.
(Oh - and the covad site now says I qualify for dsl - when I started this thread (which I am totally hogging ) I was saying that some places said I could use Covad, yet the Covad site said I couldn't....well now the Covad web site says I qualify. Weird.)
--
Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| reply to GarageJoe
Re: Oh FORGET IT!
I have a massive post addressing a lot of items and people's suggestions here, ready to post... but it triggered something that requires it to be looked at by the moderators first (not sure what...) before it gets posted here. Just FYI...hopefully it will show up soon
Edit - ah, I see i has been added, above
--
[text was edited by author 2001-05-03 01:40:04] | |
carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Short recap and new info
Yeah, me again...
I have been trying to get a straight answer from someone as to WHY no one can switch my current Northpoint IDSL line (functional in that it works fine but Northpoint no longer exists so it doesn't "go anywhere”)
From what I have now found out, it seems that many cases, the CLEC doesn’t want to do the hot cut (which is what “sighs” suggested)
Network Access Solutions said they could indeed do a hot cut on my line. I am not going with NAS because their prices are just too high for a residential person like me, but from what I know of them, they’re excellent for those who need business lines. To do a hot cut I was told they would need the
circuit ID. Since NAS is a LEC, I assume they have just chosen to do hot cuts…..
When I called Conectiv about just transferring my line, they said Verizon is prohibiting them from doing that and they had to install a new one. I called Verizon and they said they were not, so I called Conectiv back an they insisted they had a letter right there, stating that they could not do that as per Verizon.
Ok - so I called DSLi back and asked again why they could not do a hot cut
on my line. The first time I asked they told me there was "info" on my line
that my old ISP had (Telocity) which they needed and they didn't have it
so they couldn't use my current line. After getting a million stories on
that (again, see my other posts...) I got the circuit ID and
such from Telocity....called DSLi back today. This time the guy said they cold
not do a hot cut because the CLEC they use (Rhythms) would not allow them
to do it for new customers - they switched current DSLi customers who were
stranded by Northpoint, but would not do hot cuts for new customers - a
new line needed to be installed. So what I gather is that
Rhythms, chooses not to do hot cuts and NAS chooses to do them.
I am not sure why Conectiv says they are prohibited from Verizon
to do hot cuts....
OK! I then found out that if I use DSLi as my ISP with Rhythms as my CLEC
for a 144 IDSL line, it would be $149 line installation and $79.95/month.
I can use my current IDSL modem. HOWEVER, Rhythms has some technology
which allows them to provide 384/384 SDSL to people under 19000 ft from
the CO - I am 18000. If I went with SDSL via DSLi and Rhythms, it would be
a $149 line installation charge, $89.95/month and $169 for the modem. They
have to check my line before guaranteeing that I could get SDSL - if they
check and I can't get the SDSL, I wouldn't be held to anything - I would
then have the option of signing up for the IDSL service.
What do people think – does it make sense that
many CLECs are perhaps just deciding not to do line transfers (hot cuts, whatever…) and some are willing?
And – the question of the day! Should go for the 384 SDSL and pay 10 dollars more
per month and an extra $169 for the modem, or sick with 144 and save the $$?
Input is appreciated
At this point, I guess I will just go with one of the DSLi packages (they said I don’t have to sign a contract..)
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| LOL, well after along run around I would say congrats that you are finally getting to the bottom of your problem. First of all I would try to go with the SDSL service, its faster and better for only 10 more a month I believe its worth it. However I must admit I dont believe that verizon will do it for you for I believe there specs are that you are to far away. If that is true, they wont be able to supply you with a SDSL line. But then again its worth a shot you have nothing to lose. Again I hope it all works out for you for the best.
--
Matthew
Ex-Northpoint, Qwest, Covad OSP Network Technician | |
carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Hiya,
Thanks...well, the $10 more a month isn't a big deal (I can easily economize enough to save $10 a month elsewhere) but I have to get a new modem which is $169. (no contract though)
I went ahead and signed up for SDSL service with DSLi/Rhythms. As for the distance, I was surprised also that I could get something besides IDSL, but the rep at DSLi said that Rhythms has some technology which allows this speed at my distance from the CO. ?? *shrug* I guess I'll see - if they indeed find out I can't get the SDSL service, I'll just go back to my standard IDSL service, most likely with DSLi and Rhythms.
I realize Rhythms is in...not very good shape and could go the same way as Northpoint.... in which case if DSLi then has to switch me to another LEC (assuming one is available and it's not another Telocity situation) I will be downgraded to IDSL, and I guess I'll have a SDSL modem I can't use.
I can't really complain about paying for line installation and a modem though - when I signed up for Northpoint/PSN I paid *no* modem or installation charge because of a rebate. All that was refunded *and* I got a digital camera. Great deal yes - but of course those great deals probably helped lead to Northpoint's demise... and the $39.95/month via PSN - well PSN went belly up too! I guess you get what you pay for....So I guess technically, any way you look at it, I got a free IDSL modem from Northpoint
I guess I'll assume it is easier/cheaper for Rhythms to install a new line rather than use my existing one (if I had gone with the IDSL service) so I guess for now, I will have to assume that the whole "hot cut" question revolves around whether the CLEC wants to do them or not.
Hey, if anyone else gets additional info on that or anything else, I'd like to hear it. Just because I broke down and finally handed over my credit card for dsl service doesn't mean I am no longer curious about these issues. Me screaming yesterday morning as I tried to upload some large files for a client prior to going into the office, and watching them take an hour to do, and then having my dial-up connection bomb out in the middle helped push me to the "hand over credit card" stage.
People have been saying that the ILECs are going to push everyone else out of the DSL market. Where does that leave people like me, who can't get service through them?
And you know, I never did find my circuit ID tag. Ah well.
--
Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
Anon | reply to carrieg2
Re: Different stories from everyone - help!!
I was employed at NP and the reason other CLECS will not go to 18k is not due to any "Hub" it's simply the fact that SDSL will not be stable after 15k. NP offered up to 18k and the problems with the service were unbelievable,(many interuptions with service). It was only in Jan that NP decided to sell to 15kf only and save some money on repeat "truck rolls". By that time Verizon had killed us by pulling out of the sale. anyway.....NP has the same basic DSLAMS as other CLECS. No special "Hubs". | |
carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| said by jmarshall57:
I was employed at NP and the reason other CLECS will not go to 18k is not due to any "Hub" it's simply the fact that SDSL will not be stable after 15k
I had always assumed that someone who was 18000 ft from the CO (like me) could only get IDSL. I just signed up for SDSL via Rhythms - they claim they can provide stable SDSL service up to 19000 or 20000 ft. (???) Everyone else - Northpoint (my old CLEC) and every place else I check says IDSL is the best I can get. I decided to take a shot at getting 384/384 SDSL with Rhythms, figuring that if they found out I couldn't actually get SDSL service, I'd just go with what I had before - IDSL. Did I just sign up for something that will probably be unstable DSL service then? Yargh.
Eh, I'll just spring for a T-1 at this point (sha! right!)
--
Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? | |
Anon | If......
That's the "Key word" here....
If..you have perfect copper it will work to 18kf or more. The problem is that areas like NY, with its ancient facilities, shouldn't be provisioning lines past 15kf.
I have seen a 24kf SDSL ckt work at 640kbps, but that is an anomaly.
P.S. Good luck getting residential IDSL in the future. any self respecting CLEC that wants to make any money just won't provision this product. (for residential).
| |
GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| .
.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-04 05:33:59] | |
GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| reply to Anon
.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-04 05:35:02] | |
GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| reply to Anon
.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-04 05:35:50] | |
GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| reply to Anon
Re: Different stories from everyone - help!!
well, jmarshall, how do you do. I too worked for NP and hope that you have found work as well. Anyway, I am not disagreeing with what my former employee said but do wish to clarify. I will not paint as dismal a picture as jmarshall did but will hope to help you understand why. (like someone said earlier, once you have read all this information you should rent yourself out as a consultant.) anyway back to the story at hand. the question: Why does SDSL, ADSL, IDSL and any other dsl have limitations? Answer: It all has to do with the electronics of a circuit. Now voice and data operate at different bandwidth data is higher. and consumes alot more bandwidth than voice. now when you have a voice line that is getting scrambled or foggy (both ILEC terms for the line getting to far to use) they put a repeater on the line which in essence boasts the signal. But why does the signal need to be boasted. With this has to do with the theory of electricity. When you have voltage you also have resistance. The resistance on the line is directly parallel (sp?) to the voltage. Voice uses only 56 by FCC standards unless it has digital equipment on the line and then its a bit higher (usually 128) the resistance is what degrades the signal to the pt of not being able to be usable. when this happens to voice like i said they put a repeater on the line. when it happens to data there isnt anything they can do. This also is the reason why they drop the speed the farther out you get. the more resistance the more electronic noise on the line that interferes with the data stream, you lower the speed thus lowering the volts needed thus lowering the resistance you might be able to get the db level to a place that you can actually have a data stream. So back to why i started this little lesson. Its not hard to provision a line. It costs money and the more you condition the more it costs because of the time it takes. However there are a lot of POTS lines that are good enough for data because the requirements arent MUCH more than data requirements. So its possible to be able to get a clean enough line above the distance limit that many CLECs set. This theory of what happens to a line the farther you get is why they set those standards. But as you can imagine there are alot of variables, and so its very possible that you could get service at the distance you are at. I hope this information helps.
--
Matthew
Ex-Northpoint, Qwest, Covad OSP Network Technician | |
SparkChaser
BURY BECK
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
|  reply to carrieg2
said by carrieg:
I decided to take a shot at getting 384/384 SDSL with Rhythms
What plan did you get, business, residential? After all your looking and since we have almost identical physical line problems I decided I should check out DSLi.
Ron | |
Anon |  reply to carrieg2
carrie,
i got the same line from NAS, and i don't know...i just don't believe them. I'll admit that it was a month ago, but i got the same bull from the isp that i signed with regarding rhythms. In my case it was a story about how rhythms and northpoint use the same equipment..and that a 'hot cut' should be a piece of cake. Well, it was no piece of cake...and at the last minute unfamiliarity with my EQUIPMENT almost cost me another 2 weeks getting set up.
So so much for what they SAY.
mY question for those of you who work in the industry...is who gets paid for what? Someone once said..follow the money. The tech guys from verizon don't come out and work for free..who is paying them? And when the rhythms tech comes to your place to connect the new 'pair' (or whatever you call it) is that billed back to the isp?
You see where i'm going with this? If rhythms has a 'fixed price' installation charge to the isp, then it would behoove rhythms to do anything they can to avoid all this useless labor driving around the countryside reinventing the wheel. But if they are charging the isp for each one of these service calls...then the whole thing is just a windfall if they work it right.
It could be that NAS is charging higher prices at the outset..and providing 'fixed rate' installation charges.
I'm completely guessing. But i would love to know. | |
|
