susangg
join:2001-03-28
Fremont, CA
| reply to carrieg2
Re: Ok - is this true???
These appear not to be technical problems but rather, POLITICAL problems. Assuming that the current NP circuit meets the new carrier's distance requirements, there is no TECHNICAL reason why it cannot be switched from NP to the new carrier. There is however a POLITICAL problem: The telcos do not want to do it because they want the customers to be forced to use THEIR DSL service (even if they don't offer one yet, but especially if they do.)
So they are refusing to allow the lines to be switched EXCEPT in situations where: (1) the state regulatory agency is forcing them to do it; or (2) the ISP is pushing them to do it and threatening legal action if they don't do it; or (3) the line carrier is pushing them to do it.
Covad is known for playing footsie with the telcos and their policy is "don't push the telco."
If you have an aggressive ISP (like Megapath) who will push and prod, you will get your line switched, assuming it meets the new carrier's criteria. Here in Northern California, PacBell is trying to obstruct line switches but they can't be too overt about it because the PUC is looking over their shoulder, so instead of outright refusing, they are giving the ISP's the "slow roll" (meaning they do it after a lot of pushing and prodding).
If everyone who is being subjected to this crap raised a lot of hell, it might help. There are a lot of ways to do this: Call your congress person, call your local regulatory agency (in Calif. its the PUC), call or email the tech issues writers for your local newspaper. When you talk to them also remind them what an atrocity the Tauzin bill is, and how it will make the telcos even more of a de facto monopoly than they already are... |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Now that annoys me - Verizon cannot provide dsl service for me, and they say they doubt they can any time soon!! Yet they are making me pay someone else for a new line because of it? So why is DSLi telling me that my old ISP (Telocity) has the information and they can't get it - how can Verizon interfere with that? I know, this may sound silly but I really don't see why DSLi can't get this "configuration information" and at least see if the line meets the criteria. I checked at one point about switching ISPs - I had a NP line and my ISP was Telocity. DSLi said they could just do an ISP switch with my line...DSLi is also switching all their NP customers over to Rhythms, Covad etc.... if I had made the ISP switch before NP died, they could have transferred me...unless they would have had to possibly still install a new line? I can only get IDSL due to my distance, and if Rhythms can provide me an IDSL line, it seems they should just use the one I have right now. Argh - I don't know - should I call DSLi and try to push them to get this line info and try and use the perfectly good IDSL line I currently have? (well, perfectly good in that it worked fine until NP died) If my line doesn't meet the necessary criteria, fine - I have no problem paying for a new line but it seems absurd to pay for a new line if I can use the line I have! It also seems completely absurd that Verizon would somehow be interfering with this when they CAN'T provide me with DSL and told me themselves that they probably couldn't any time soon! !^!$!%#
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? |
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SparkChaser
See the Light
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
clubs:
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Comcast
| said by carrieg:
It also seems completely absurd that Verizon would somehow be interfering with this when they CAN'T provide me with DSL and told me themselves that they probably couldn't any time soon! !^!$!%#
HA! Believe it.
and the bit about a new line, as you say, if I may quote you " !^!$!%# ". Two copper wires that were working fine for IDSL last week suddenly don't, BULL!
My IDSL modem is sitting here talking to the DSLAM at the Downingtown CO. Every once in awhile it sends a burst of data and goes one it's way. I can't get DSL unless I get new everything, like you. I know all they have to do is take the 2 wires from here and put them there.
In needed a good rant!
ron |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| This is ridiculous. If this is true - that they could really just use my line and are not, it makes me *not* want to go ahead with DSLi. Giving in to something so ridiculous - whether it's DSLI's fault, Verizon's fault... etc... would be just helping to perpetuate the cycle. Again, if for some reason they really *do* need to install a new line, I can understand and I won't complain about paying. It seems that, from the comments so far on this board, that they should be able to use my existing line - or they should at least *check* and see if they can. How can I get a hold of someone who will give me the straight story... or is it pointless? I mean really, what a waste - ripping out a line to put in one when the one there could work??
And let me state again - I am not trying to get something for nothing. I do not have a problem paying for service and equipment... I just don't want to pay for something I do not need!
Yes beeron...&!%!^
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| Ok, Verizon is on my you know what list now.
yes I am replying to myself.
I called conectiv regarding DSL... they were very nice, btw.. and the lowest monthly rate! ($59.95 - no contract.. la la la!)
Well, I asked they guy on the phone about the existing line thing... and he said that the telocs won't allow them to switch the lines - they (conectiv and other ISPs) get charged and have to install a new line, so they in turn have to charge the customer. (so what was this configuration stuff the dude at DSLi was referring to?) My area uses Verizon - they can't provide access for me and then they want to turn around cause me to spend an extra $150-$200 for a new line when I really don't need one
It's not like they are trying to force me to use them - THEY CAN'T PROVIDE SERVICE TO ME!!
Why on EARTH would they do this? I said before that giving in would perpetuate the cycle...but if everyone just gives up and doesn't use these ISPs because the telcos are causing them to pay extra... it's like giving in and allowing the telocs to push out everyone else.
Am I off base here???
Anyway, I think I will take susangg's advice and start raising h*ll.
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? |
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Bucko
join:2001-04-24
Portland, OR
|  reply to susangg
Re: Ok - is this true???
Ug. I hate Telocity right now. I hate Pac Bell, too. While I am happy for those former NP people who managed to get switched to other last mile providers (including Pac Bell), I am furious that there seems to be no good reason that Telocity cannot provide service to me me me.
I have contacted my congresswoman. I have contacted the California PUC. Perhaps I should just give up because I just keep getting more and more frustrated!!! I keep calling Telocity, thinking that they actually are "in the process of provisioning" another provider for me. Unfortunately, they proceed to tell me that, there is no "qualified" carrier. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer as to what constitutes "qualified." Telocity has also told me that Pac Bell denied their request stating that no circuits were available. Of course, this is not a technical problem, it is a competition problem. Pac Bell can, of course (in fact, there sales person bragged to me about the likelihood that "Pac Bell will be here forever" unlike the other DSL providers) service my line. I do not want their crummy contract nor do I want their dynamic IP address. I want them to play fair.
Rant rant rant rave. . . I really liked DSL. |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
edited
| Know what gets me?
Verizon refuses to let DSLi or whoever switch over my line and are forcing the install of a new one, right? (for what reason I don't know....) Well gosh, let's say Telocity had been able to switch my carrier from Northpoint to something else... Verizon would not have required them to install a BRAND new line - so why, because Telocity can't seem to find a carrier for me, do *I* have to pay for a new IDSL line to be installed because I have to switch ISPs?! Telocity should have been able to switch me over to Rhythms, since that is what I would use if I go with DSLi but I guess they (Telocity) didn't feel like it. I have had PSN go bankrupt on me, NP die on me, Telocity basically tell me to go jump in a lake, and because of that VERIZON is going to make me pay for a new line instead of using the one I already paid for??!
*fume*
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word?
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 23:26:50] |
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Anon | I was just flipping through these messages and thought I might be able to add a little insight...there's more to DSL then what you see in your home/office, there are circuits that need to be provisioned in the Telco CO, these circuits remain the property of the company who buys them, ie. Rhythms , Covad, NP...when NP went out of business they did not release most of these circuits, because of this, your new providers are unable to use those existing circuits and are then forced to run a whole new line. So don't blame Verizon (for this, at least) and don't blame your new provider...blame the old one
oh, by the way, if DSL wasn't so cheap, these companies would not have gone out of business and you would all still have service...the old adage never changed..."you (still) get what you pay for." Don't wanna pay? Have fun with your dial-ups... |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
edited
| Well, as I stated before, I have no problem paying for service. I don't recall complaining about DSL fees here - I wanted to get the real story on why my current line can not be switched to another provider. If there is a technical issue that prohibits my current IDSL line from being used for another IDSL connection, and I need a brand new line for the same type of DSL connection, ok. However, the phone call I just completed with Verizon shows that I am still not getting the correct information.
I was told that my current NP IDSL line could not be switched to Rhythms, etc not because of technical issues but because 1) Verizon would not allow them to do so or 2) there was technical information they needed for the line that my old ISP (Telocity) had
Well I just got off the phone with verizon. I was told by someone at Verizon (have his name and everything) that Verizon has nothing to do with my IDSL line - as far as they are concerned I have just one phone line in my house and my separate IDSL line is not in their records. Thus, they cannot prohibit anything being done with the line. This seems a little odd - I mean, the first step in getting the line installed required someone from Verizon coming out...yet they say they have no record of my line and in no way are prohibiting anything being done with it
The Verizon rep then told me the only problem could be that Telocity has information on the line that the other ISP (Conectiv, DSLi, whatever) would need for the line and without the info, they could not use the line. He (verizon rep) then said I should be able to get that information from telocity for whatever ISP I switch to (I didn't cancel my telocity line - they said there was no other available "last mile provider" - well there is, but not one that Telocity can work with)
Now, upon getting that information, if there is a technical issue which prohibits my current IDSL line from working when going through Rhythms, etc, and I need a new line - fine. However, if the line can indeed be used, why should I pay for another line installation when the line I already paid for could work?
Now that I know Verizon is not holding anything up, (or it seems that they aren't...) I'll contact the ISP which told me that and ask them, if i can get the information from Telocity, can they see if they can use my current line. I know other NP customers who had their current line switched over, so I would like to see if the same is possible with my line.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-01 18:37:41] |
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susangg
join:2001-03-28
Fremont, CA
| reply to Anon
Actually, you are giving her incorrect legal advice. The circuits do not "belong" to bankrupt Northpoint. Northpoint was "renting" them (or more accurately, they were "renting" the right to USE them.
They "belong" to the telephone company (her in Northern Calif, that's PacBell, presumably its Verizon in Carrie's neighborhood).
But: Because there are public interest considerations at work here, they do not "belong" to the telco in the sense that the telco can do or not do what they please with them. The telcos are required to make them available to their competitors. Unfortunately, just HOW they are to do that is not clearly spelled out, and many state regulatory agencies have definitely interpreted what they can and can't do, except in a very broad sense. If our elected representatives could somehow be weaned from their addiction to campaign contributions, they might be prevailed upon to write regulations that clearly spell it out.
Failing that, some state utility regulators have shown willingness to interpret the vague regulations embodied in the telecommunications act of 1996 so as to REQUIRE the telco to make the circuit available. You may want to search this board to see if there are any postings about what your state regulatory agency (in Calif its the PUC) has done, if anything. Go to your state PUC's web site (if they have one) and see what is there.
What can you do? I recommend getting the FAX numbers of the telco (Verizon) and your ISP and sending FAXES to them confirming what you have been told on the telephone, with copies to your PUC. Be sure to get the circuit number (all circuits have numbers, or so I am told) from your ISP. Put the circuit number in your correspondence.
Then call your PUC consumer intake line and insist on speaking with a complaint rep...if you can't figure it out from the web site, ask the PUC consumer rep how an ordinary consumer can file a simple complaint.
Then file it! And be sure to call your local newspaper, find out who does the technology beat. Reporters are always looking for human interest stories about things technical. If you can find a good investigative reporter, he or she can do some of the leg work for you.
I will bet that your circuit suddenly becomes available to be switched! You will have been designated a trouble maker and they will want you to go away. The public relations office for Verizon will instruct the techs to do whatever is necessary to make that happen (unless they are stupider than I think they are....) |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| reply to carrieg2
Yet another update...
I just want answers, that's all! Ok, so I called Telocity (see my post above, and the post above that...) regarding the information for my line. Telocity says they do not have that info - NP had it, and now they have no idea where the info would be (?) The telocity rep also stated that for every NP customer they switched, they had to build a new line... I asked if they did any hot cuts and he said no.
Am I getting correct info here? I'm not putting blame on any party at the moment - I am now at the point where I would just like the full story! So Telocity didn't do any hot cuts and has no circuit ID info for my line at all - is this correct? I stated that other ISPs did CLEC to CLEC transfers, so where did they get the needed info? He said he didn't know? Does this have to do with my line being an IDSL line and not being handled by Verizon - as in, Verizon would usually have the needed technical info but since my line didn't wasn't handled by Verizon at all (or so Verizon tells me) that NP had it and now that NP is gone there is no way to obtain this info?
Hey - if i am totally wrong about some of my assumptions, please people, set me straight!  I really just want accurate information and so far, it just seems like something isn't sitting right - NP released the lines, yet I can't get my circuit ID and whatever information other ISPs say they require?
CAN SOMEONE JUST EXPLAIN THIS TO ME CLEARLY? please? pretty please?
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| reply to susangg
Re: Know what gets me?
Thank you susangg for this information..however, you said "Be sure to get the circuit number (all circuits have numbers, or so I am told) from your ISP" - Telocity just told me they do not have the circuit ID - NP had it, and basically, they have no idea how i would get that info. You are right - Verizon is my telephone company and they told me today that they really have nothing to do with my line! (see my other posts ) So who the heck DOES have info on my line!? Verizon doesn't, Telocity doesn't, NP did - argh! No one has yet given me any reason that my current IDSL line cannot be used except that 1)Verizon is hogging it or 2)telocity is hiding my technical info.
Both Verizon and Telocity say "Gee... we aren't doing that" At this point, paying for a new IDSL line to be installed is no big deal - sure I'd like to save the $$ but it's not going to break my bank account, but when things don't seem to make sense I want to find out the answer!
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? |
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susangg
join:2001-03-28
Fremont, CA
| Carrie: Your ISP either knows the circuit number or can easily get it. Megapath had no trouble getting mine. The thing, is they have to ASK for it. Apparently Telocity does not go to bat for its customers. My suggestion is that you go to Telocity's "investor info" page on its web site and get the fax numbers of some high ranking honchos and start bugging them. Be sure to copy your state PUC (or whatever they call it down there on all these faxes and stuff.)
Or you could JUST SHOW UP at your local telco office with a tape recorder (or better yet, your local reporter!!) and have them tell you they can't find your circuit number FOR THE CAMERA. Never underestimate the power of the press.
You might want to see if there's a utility reform group in your area (in Calif. we have one called "TURN") and enlist their aid. Maybe they will file a class complaint or whatever legal remedy your PUC allows.
The other option is (depending on your reason for having DSL and your budget) is to forget Telocity and cough up enough money for a SOHO account with Megapath. They are better at pushing the telcos to do their job. |
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Kibbles
Premium
join:1999-07-31
Mission Viejo, CA
·Cox HSI
| said by susangg:
The other option is (depending on your reason for having DSL and your budget) is to forget Telocity and cough up enough money for a SOHO account with Megapath. They are better at pushing the telcos to do their job.
Not lately...since April 20 no one knows why my NP line ( dead since March 20 ) can`t be used.I like the idea of contacting the PUC just in case the main problem is with my TELCO.
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Netopia router with a green light:( :»www.satsujin.org »www.akita-inu.com |
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MotaBoy420$
Go Yanks
join:2001-01-02
White Plains, NY
| reply to carrieg2
Carrie,
Telocity should have the circuit ID number. It sounds like they are just BSing you. If you know where the pair for the IDSL comes to your house then look for a tag. The ID number might be on the tag. It was there on my tag and some other line info. |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
edited
| My fun IDSL line
Regarding Telocity not having my circuit info....this is straight from a letter NP sent to the FCC:
"During the course of the week, starting Friday, March 23, 2001, NorthPoint also provided to its ISPs all company proprietary information 3 regarding Circuit IDs of
subscribers and blanket “letters of authorization” entitling those ISPs to begin to migrate
customers off of the NorthPoint network with the full consent and approval of the company."
So why doesn't Telocity have this info?
-------
Well, I called Telocity and the person I spoke to seemed very nice - she stated that Telocity should have the curcuit ID etc but that the info was essentially useless to another ISP. She suggested I get the specific information needed and call Telocity back and go from there. Guess I'll do that
--------
Anyway....
Hi all - I really appreciate this input....
susangg - well, the reason I want/need DSL is because I work for a web development company and I do work from home at times. My company doesn't offer DSL - I can get a T-1 or a 56k frame Relay connection through my company, but even with them charging me just cost, it's still extremely expensive - even the 56k frame relay. Cable is available all around me, but not in my particular neighborhood (thanks again to AT&T..)
So basically, DSL is my only real option. As for getting a SOHO account with Megapath, I could spend the money right now and get another IDSL line through DSLi, Conectiv... but they want to install a new line. If they *need* to install a new line due to technical issues - fine! I'll pay the money needed for that, but I would like to know why they cannot use my current IDSL line and so far, no one has provided me with an answer to this question. Telocity can no longer provide IDSL service to me since NP died, so in essence, I have given up on Telocity.
Question: Verizon says they have nothing to do with my IDSL line - could this be accurate? Anyway, if they have nothing to do with my line .... I don't think showing up at the Telco office would help if they claim they aren't involved with my line - but how is this possible? I realize Verizon cannot provide IDSL lines but it seems that they would be involved on some level - Verizon coming out to my location was the first step in setting up the line in the first place.
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 12:01:58] |
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SparkChaser
See the Light
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
·Comcast
| said by carrieg:
Question: Verizon says they have nothing to do with my IDSL line - could this be accurate?
It's surprising Verizon ever sees daylight from where they have their head!
As you probably remember I also had IDSL with NP. (BTW-Green light still on) Verizon put the wires in. I talked to the Verizon tech as he was connecting it. I watched him check the main cable to get the right pair. It's their copper. NP paid them to use Verizon copper. Once it's at the CO then Covad or whoever connects it to their equipment.
I'm letting you do all of up front work before I attempt DSL again. Soon, you'll be able to rent yourself out as a DSL consultant;) Keep fighting!
Ron |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
| said by beeron:
As you probably remember I also had IDSL with NP. (BTW-Green light still on) Verizon put the wires in. I talked to the Verizon tech as he was connecting it. I watched him check the main cable to get the right pair. It's their copper. NP paid them to use Verizon copper. Once it's at the CO then Covad or whoever connects it to their equipment.
Perhaps then when the Verizon rep stated that they had nothing to do with the IDSL line, they mean that once it was set up, it was out of their hands? Is it usual for them not to have any record of the line going into my house? Anyway, I just got off the phone with Conectiv - they stated that Verizon prohibits them from doing hot cuts, period. The Conectiv rep states that she had a letter right in front of her telling her that they (Conectiv) could NOT do hot cuts. Looks like I have to call Verizon back and find out, once again, why I am getting different stories. Or maybe it's limited to Conectiv - who the heck knows - argh!
Oh my GOODNESS this is frustrating!!!
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Is xDSL becoming a four-letter word? |
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carrieg2
join:2001-01-08
Cherry Hill, NJ
edited
| Oh FORGET IT!
Called Verizon - now they say "well if that is what Conectiv says then that's probably in their contract." huh? The person at Verizon yesterday was just as insistent as the person at Conectiv today : Verizon: "we are in no way prohibiting hot cuts on your line -we aren't involved with that line so we can't keep you from having something like that done" Conectiv: "I have a letter right here from verizon prohibiting this"
Who the heck even owns my line at this point!?!? Why can't I just get a straight answer??
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO CAN HELP? I should just say forget and pay for a brand new line to be installed - but that won't satisfy my curiosity
Added:
Just looked back at something susangg said regarding the phone company owning the line but not necessarily being able to prohibit certain things being done on the line. It seems, I guess, that is what Verizon is doing in the Conectiv case? So Verizon technically owns my line... I am getting confused. Anyone want to provide a flowchart or something?
I also emailed DSLi and asked what technical info they needed for my line (see my post waaaay in the beginning of this thread I am totally hogging  ) since Telocity said they would provide the info. Let's see what happens... dsli didnt say anything about Verizon not allowing hot cuts...
[text was edited by author 2001-05-02 15:37:39] |
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GarageJoe
U2 Rocks
join:2001-03-21
Scottsdale, AZ
| Okay I will try to help you out but I am not sure we can get anywhere. I guess the real reason I am writing this is because I have the background with both the ILEC's and CLEC's in knowing procedures in both companies. First of all the ILEC has record of EVERY line that is in use whether its by the ILEC or CLEC. They have to so that the line (the copper pr that is connected at several differnt junction boxes between the CO and your DMARC) isnt used for POTS service or another DSL service to another location. Also the line technically is OWNED by the ILECs the line is then LEASED to the CLECs for use. What you need to do is this in my humble opinion: First get the circuit ID number, the ILEC has this. THis is the one of several ways for them to identify your circuit and the status of it (whether its in use by an ilec who has ownership, pending facilities, installed etc.) The IlECs also were given the LOA according to an FCC filing showing that they have the authorization to do cuts if the ISP shows the authorization. (this just allows the ILEC to be on the same page as the CLEC's and ISP's that are doing cutovers) The CLEC's dont have the database on others circuits and usually are only able to get it from your former CLEC or ISP. The ILEC however has ATLEAST your circuit ID number. If you need any information that is where i would start. They can access these records by addresss, name, and telephone number, (what you need to ask is for all the circuits that are connected to your address.) If you need any other questions answered as far as getting information from the ILEC is concerned, please dont hesitate to reply. I hope this information helps.
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Matthew
Ex-Northpoint, Qwest, Covad OSP Network Technician |
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