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GamingGirl
join:2003-09-13
Folsom, CA
| reply to koitsu
Re: Packet Loss/Latency Reports
LAX to SFO |
I downloaded the ping plotter program a few nights ago so last night I let it run while I slept... attached are the results. I guess I'm not seeing the dropped packets as badly as you are but nonetheless I am still seeing poor performance.
Both Covad and Speakeasy refuse to admit that there is any kind of problem or change that could possibly have affected my service (go figure *sigh*) but if this remains to be the norm over the next week or two, I'm just going to wave goodbye, pay the early termination fee and find a more suitable provider.
It's just a shame that they must think that I have nothing better to do than sit on hold, wait for a tech, explain my problem and hope for a resolution. One thing I have learned through working in customer service is that you don't hear from the customer when things are going good, you only hear from them when things are going bad. To be told that there is nothing wrong is saddening at the least =(.
I truly hope that you all find the resolution you are looking for because I'm not patient enough (nor willing to pay the incredible fees each month) to sit around praying that things will return to normal. The least they could do is say "ma'am, I am sorry that you aren't happy with our service, we will do everything we can to make things right"... instead I hear "ma'am, we don't even want to hear about what's affecting you unless you can show proof since we can't seem to reproduce the problem with our 'tools'". In fact, I don't even hear that unless I call in since Advanced Support doesn't seem willing to pick up the phone and follow up. =(
I don't get paid by Speakeasy to research and find out what is going on with my line, rather I pay them to do that for me and I'm just not seeing enough from their side to warrant my payment. I am truly disappointed. | |
paulhaskew
Unoffical Dominos Spokesman
join:2002-01-10
Vancouver, WA
clubs:
| reply to koitsu
Tracing route to vnsc-pri.sys.gtei.net [4.2.2.1]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 20 ms 19 ms 19 ms gate.tailie.net [66.93.174.1]
2 * 19 ms 20 ms ge0-0-0.brd-1-sea.speakeasy.net [206.191.168.200
]
3 20 ms 19 ms 19 ms border26s.g3-2.speakeasy-14.sea.pnap.net [206.19
1.168.220]
4 20 ms 19 ms 18 ms core4.ge0-0-0-bbnet1.sea.pnap.net [206.253.192.1
44]
5 18 ms 19 ms 18 ms p6-0.sttlwa1-cr1.bbnplanet.net [4.25.88.17]
6 18 ms 21 ms 22 ms so-2-0-0.sttlwa1-hcr1.bbnplanet.net [4.24.10.238
]
7 20 ms 20 ms 21 ms p3-0.sttlwa2-br1.bbnplanet.net [4.24.11.201]
8 20 ms 20 ms 19 ms p1-0.sttlwa2-cr1.bbnplanet.net [4.24.11.194]
9 20 ms 18 ms 18 ms vnsc-pri.sys.gtei.net [4.2.2.1]
Trace complete.
there i did that tracert, gonna start pingplotter and see where it takes me for the next 48 hours...  | |
GamingGirl
join:2003-09-13
Folsom, CA
| reply to KatOak
Here is my ping plotter for one hour right before I called in for tech support (had to follow up on my support ticket ya know). I told the tech on the line that I wanted to send the .jpg to my advanced support technician (he was on the phone with Covad at the time...hmmm) so I ended up emailing it to the first level tech in the hopes that he would pass it on. He promised me that the AS tech assigned to my ticket would call me back... he never did =(. I have a feeling I'll get a call in the middle of the day tomorrow when I'm at work (isn't that how it always is?)... Anyhow, this ping plotter thing is fun =). I think I'll let it run tonight while I sleep and tomorrow while I work just to see how it does. | |
paulhaskew
Unoffical Dominos Spokesman
join:2002-01-10
Vancouver, WA
clubs:
| reply to KatOak
wow, thats insane gaminggirl...
mine shows loss only on my 2nd hop, which is a speakeasy router...
other than that, no loss...
i have two routes going right now with ping plotter, only another 12-15 hours and it wll be all done...
--
I post for myself, from myself. Statements made do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer, Charter Communications, or any of its subsidiaries. | |
koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
| 
SFO 09/14 - 09/15 |
Large square-wave ("ramping") effect you see at destination between 06:00 and 09:00 this morning caused by my co-lo provider doing some cabling maintenance.
P.S. -- The "packet stalling" problem I mention every so often was in full effect last night, particularly between 22:15 and 23:15. Graph should prove that beyond a doubt.
--
Making life hard for others since 1977.
[text was edited by author 2003-09-15 12:08:47] | |
Carl F
@speakeasy.n
| reply to KatOak
Here's a link to a different kind of data, and more
discussion, in SpeakEasy's own forums.
»forums.speakeasy.net/6/ubb.x?a=t···21608163
My take is that it's neither the loss of average bandwidth
nor the intermittent packet loss that's killing our service,
but the VARIABILITY, the burstiness and the stalls that
are so long that packet recovery schemes built on top
of UDP (such as RealPlayer's fairly robust method)
cannot possibly recover lost packets on time.
I agree that SpeakEasy is buying time at this point. I
have no access to information, and yet I am beginning to
feel as though I am characterizing the problem more
quickly than they are. Of course, this is ridiculous.
SpeakEasy has not provided such great service over the
years, and grown so impressively, with a bunch of idiots
on their staff. They are very bright people who have
access to much more information and who have much more
experience in interpreting their information. To think
that I'm out in front of them characterizing their
problem is silly.
I infer that SpeakEasy knows much more than they are
choosing to share at this point. The amount of
misinformation and scripted misdirection of attention from
a technical service department that used to be consistently
great is a strong indication that SpeakEasy is buying
time. Why keep running phy level tests with Covad, when
the problem is time-of-day sensitive? Is the concern that
after the sun comes-up and the line warms-up, that its
capacity drops precipitously? ;^) If I were Covad, I'd be
getting pretty annoyed at the amount of my tech support
resource being squandered by SpeakEasy just now.
SpeakEasy must be a much less fun place to work these days.
A crew that used to enjoy straightforward and direct
relations with customers now has to play poker for a living.
I certainly don't envy Kat Oak her job right now. What
a tough position to be in!
There's a memo from their CEO announcing a major
upgrade to Juniper equipment on their forum. Perhaps
the upgrade is not going well. Perhaps they are trying
out new traffic management policies with the new
equipment, and our midday packet loss is an unanticipated
side-effect. Perhaps SpeakEasy is testing the threshold
of pain in our segment of their market, to see how much
stability of traffic they can divert to big ticket
enterprise customers. To the extent SpeakEasy has
enterprise customers in the $10,000+ per month range, our
complaints are unlikely to be handled with the same
priority.
But again, this could just be an upgrade gone really bad.
After all, if SpeakEasy is not a big ticket customer for
Juniper, Juniper might have cocked-up the installation,
and is now tap-dancing for SpeakEasy the way that SpeakEasy
is tap-dancing for us.
My willingness to stick with SpeakEasy depends upon (1)
quick resolution of problems and (2) honest characterization
of problems when quick resolution is not possible. That
honest characterization acknowledges, in our business
relationship, that we are both incurring damage. When
problems are not forthrightly acknowledged, then SpeakEasy
makes the relationship all about their bottom line and
their saving face.
Please, SpeakEasy, get your network architects into this
discussion, and have them tell us what they know, and
how SpeakEasy plans to make all of us whole.
Cheers,
Carl F.
San Francisco | |
Chicago_DSL6
join:2003-08-04
Palatine, IL
| reply to KatOak
If this doesn't get the wheels in motion...
Anyone experiencing these issues and can not seem to get any sort of resoltuion after a reasonable amount of time, visit »www.secfraud.com/ and email Marc Godino with your issues. He worked on a lawsuit against Earthlink in California and won. | |
KatOak
VIP
join:2001-09-10
Seattle, WA
| reply to KatOak
Our POP upgrades will begin with Seattle - we have not installed new hardware in our SFO POP. As I posted on Friday, we will be transitioning a large portion of customers over to a new circuit and router tonight to alleviate the max on packets per second that we're seeing on one of our SFO routers.
Basically, anyone here can infer, imply or extrapolate to their heart's content regarding the cause of this or any other issue. That's pretty much one of the reasons that this forum is here - for open discussion of questions, concerns and experiences. But I have always provided straight information in this forum over the past two years and will continue to do so. Whether or not you elect to accept that information as fact is a personal decision.
--
Kat Oak
Speakeasy
kat@speakeasy.net | |
GamingGirl
join:2003-09-13
Folsom, CA
| reply to KatOak
I do appreciate your updates Kat. However, my problem is occurring on the LAX POP and despite my many attempts, not one person has addressed my concerns. I have updated my service ticket numerous times, I've sent email to a first level tech with his assurance that he would pass it to the AS tech assigned to my ticket. It has been over a week and the AS tech has not even bothered to call me back. When I call in to speak with him, he is always on another call. Covad has closed my ticket. Speakeasy has not provided me any reassurance that my problem is even valid. All I want is a usable connection and if that is not possible, I at least want an explanation about what you (as in Speakeasy) are doing to correct the problem. Telling me to hang in there while I am still being charged full price for a less than fully working connection is unsuitable, especially when these updates aren't even pertaining to me. I'm sure you could understand my frustration. | |
KatOak
VIP
join:2001-09-10
Seattle, WA | Definitely - and we're still working on the issue as reported in NYC, CHI and LAX. If possible, can you provide me with your account name via email?
Thanks,
--
Kat Oak
Speakeasy
kat@speakeasy.net | |
falkclan
join:2000-07-02
Olathe, KS
| reply to KatOak
WOW
I had been forgetting to check into these forums 
I'm glad I did, but last night I FINALLY put in a ticket to speakeasy
my normal ping to chi.speakeasy.net (2nd hop) from here in Kansas City was 18ms
now I get 18ms to the gateway hop (x.x.x.1) and like 50ms to chi.speakeasy.net
seems it's widespread, hoping for a fix
I emailed you Kat, with my specific ticket
thanks
--
Alan Falk | |
Carl F
@speakeasy.n
| reply to KatOak
Hi Kat -
I label my inferences as such, to make it clear that I'm
guessing and that I know I'm guessing. I'm sure some of
my guesses are off the mark to some extent or another.
I'm also sure that some of my guesses are fairly close
to the mark. If I had anything close to adequately
complete information, I wouldn't have to guess! :^)
What follows, however, are not inferences, they're
behavioral observations.
1. You poke your head up from time to time to tell us
what the problem is definitely not. So far since
this issue arose in the last month, you've never
spoken-up to tell us anything definite and
comprehensive about what the problem is. (Blaster
was a stressor, not a root cause.)
2. You're being very clear on what seem like relevant
facts: No upgrades to the SFO POP, no bandwidth caps,
period! I believe these things are true. Period! :^)
But they are unresponsive factoids. They state some
tidbit that dramatically narrows the intent of what
someone wrote, and then responds to that narrowed
intent. I'm not a networking expert, so if I use
a phrase like "bandwidth capping" to describe
symptoms I've laid out in detail, I expect you to tell
me that my symptoms are more consistent with what
folks call "traffic throttling" (as Jester did), and
then go on to address the broader concern. Similarly,
I didn't say that the upgrade possibly gone bad was
on the SFO POP, and yet you respond narrowly to SFO,
when I--and your CEO--are both talking about an
infrastructure upgrade throughout SpeakEasy. You
use the rhetoric and cadences of a straight-talker,
but I'm finding that understanding you and others from
SpeakEasy depends on what the meaning of 'is' is,
and how that narrows and misdirects my attention.
3. When you offer a "debunking" factoid, you write with
emphasis and a slight edge of self-righteousness,
like a beleaguered person trying hard to be responsive.
However, having seen other posts from you that have been
substantively responsive in abundant detail, without
all the emphasis, you've evidenced that you're very
smart and articulate, and know the difference between
responsiveness and unresponsiveness. I infer that you
know that you're not currently offering us direct
responses, whatever emphatic edge you put on the
factoids you offer. Emphasis is what you're using to
backfill for whatever hard facts you're not sharing
(and perhaps are not being shared with you).
4. You've offered several of us escalation, which seems
like very proactive, can-do problem solving. But there
has been no follow-up from whomever you might have
escalated to. The best I can say is that you are
a proactive element in a largely inactive support
organization.
5. If you respond to nothing else, please respond to this.
It's been almost three weeks since I opened my first
trouble ticket.
WHO IS THE SINGLE POINT OF OWNERSHIP FOR MY PROBLEM, OR, WHY, AFTER SO MUCH TIME, DON'T I HAVE ONE WHO I CAN CONTACT DIRECTLY AND TROUBLE-SHOOT WITH CONJOINTLY?
You're giving off all of the emotional
signals of owning our problems, Kat, but in substance
you don't fully own any of our problems, and I can't
see that anyone does. You guys aren't hotwired to
each other like the Borg, so I can't expect nearly
as consistent an outcome, knowing that my problem is
somewhere in the SpeakEasy Collective. ;^) Talk to me
about my single point of ownership, Kat, and how I
arrange to work directly and collaboratively with her
or him.
Finally, Kat, please don't get me wrong. I think you're
doing a great job for SpeakEasy. If I had a high-tech
company with a substantial online presence and customer
contact, I'd hire you in a heartbeat. You're bright,
articulate, good-humored, and quickly connect well with
distressed customers. You should definitely be on
SpeakEasy's must-retain short list.
All I ask is that you don't treat me/us like we're too
naive to know that doing a great job for SpeakEasy is not
always the same as solving our problems. Sometimes the
body of facts is going to outrun your ability to spin
them. At that point, it's time to go back to your bosses
(as you may well be doing) and insist on developing and
deploying Plan B. I'm at the point where I'd like to see
Plan B in evidence.
The problem, I'm guessing, will be getting the people you
work for to embrace Plan B, or even that they need one.
I'm particularly under-whelmed at the agility of your
management team under crisis. Most every response I've
received has been either an unfulfilled promise, or else
something that would have been timely and forthcoming two
to three days earlier, instead of begrudgingly, belatedly
acknowledging to me what I'd already figured out for myself.
Best regards,
Carl F.
San Francisco | |
Carl F
@speakeasy.n
| reply to KatOak
Hi Kat -
I label my inferences as such, to make it clear that I'm
guessing and that I know I'm guessing. I'm sure some of
my guesses are off the mark to some extent or another.
I'm also sure that some of my guesses are fairly close
to the mark. If I had anything close to adequately
complete information, I wouldn't have to guess! :^)
What follows, however, are not inferences, they're
behavioral observations.
1. You poke your head up from time to time to tell us
what the problem is definitely not. So far since
this issue arose in the last month, you've never
spoken-up to tell us anything definite and
comprehensive about what the problem is. (Blaster
was a stressor, not a root cause.)
2. You're being very clear on what seem like relevant
facts: No upgrades to the SFO POP, no bandwidth caps,
period! I believe these things are true. Period! :^)
But they are unresponsive factoids. They state some
tidbit that dramatically narrows the intent of what
someone wrote, and then responds to that narrowed
intent. I'm not a networking expert, so if I use
a phrase like "bandwidth capping" to describe
symptoms I've laid out in detail, I expect you to tell
me that my symptoms are more consistent with what
folks call "traffic throttling" (as Jester did), and
then go on to address the broader concern. Similarly,
I didn't say that the upgrade possibly gone bad was
on the SFO POP, and yet you respond narrowly to SFO,
when I--and your CEO--are both talking about an
infrastructure upgrade throughout SpeakEasy. You
use the rhetoric and cadences of a straight-talker,
but I'm finding that understanding you and others from
SpeakEasy depends on what the meaning of 'is' is,
and how that narrows and misdirects my attention.
3. When you offer a "debunking" factoid, you write with
emphasis and a slight edge of self-righteousness,
like a beleaguered person trying hard to be responsive.
However, having seen other posts from you that have been
substantively responsive in abundant detail, without
all the emphasis, you've evidenced that you're very
smart and articulate, and know the difference between
responsiveness and unresponsiveness. I infer that you
know that you're not currently offering us direct
responses, whatever emphatic edge you put on the
factoids you offer. Emphasis is what you're using to
backfill for whatever hard facts you're not sharing
(and perhaps are not being shared with you).
4. You've offered several of us escalation, which seems
like very proactive, can-do problem solving. But there
has been no follow-up from whomever you might have
escalated to. The best I can say is that you are
a proactive element in a largely inactive support
organization.
5. If you respond to nothing else, please respond to this.
It's been almost three weeks since I opened my first
trouble ticket.
WHO IS THE SINGLE POINT OF OWNERSHIP FOR MY PROBLEM, OR, WHY, AFTER SO MUCH TIME, DON'T I HAVE ONE WHO I CAN CONTACT DIRECTLY AND TROUBLE-SHOOT WITH CONJOINTLY?
You're giving off all of the emotional signals of
owning our problems, Kat, but in actual substance
you don't fully own any of our problems, and I can't
see that anyone does. You guys aren't hotwired to
each other like the Borg, so I can't expect nearly
as consistent an outcome, knowing that my problem is
somewhere in the SpeakEasy Collective. ;^) Talk to me
about my single point of ownership, Kat, and how I
arrange to work directly and collaboratively with her
or him.
Finally, Kat, please don't get me wrong. I think you're
doing a great job for SpeakEasy. If I had a high-tech
company with a substantial online presence and customer
contact, I'd hire you in a heartbeat. You're bright,
articulate, good-humored, and quickly connect well with
distressed customers. You should definitely be on
SpeakEasy's must-retain short list.
All I ask is that you don't treat me/us like we're too
naive to know that doing a great job for SpeakEasy is not
always the same as solving our problems. Sometimes the
body of facts is going to outrun your ability to spin
them. At that point, it's time to go back to your bosses
(as you may well be doing) and insist on developing and
deploying Plan B. I'm at the point where I'd like to see
Plan B in evidence.
The problem, I'm guessing, will be getting the people you
work for to embrace Plan B, or even that they need one.
I'm particularly under-whelmed at the agility of your
management team under crisis. Most every response I've
received has been either an unfulfilled promise, or else
something that would have been timely and forthcoming two
to three days earlier, instead of begrudgingly, belatedly
acknowledging to me what I'd already figured out for myself.
Best regards,
Carl F.
San Francisco | |
Carl F
@speakeasy.n | reply to KatOak
Sorry for the duplicate post. I've asked to have one removed...
Carl F. | |
Bondman
join:2001-08-24
Livonia, MI
| Kat:
The service through the Detroit NAP is very poor. If it is going to take months to get this matter resolved how about some credit on our accounts.
Below is the ping results I just took moments ago.
Ping statistics for 64.81.159.2:
Packets: Sent = 53, Received = 53, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 25ms, Maximum = 64ms, Average = 39ms
At times I do get Packet loss. I used to get regularly pings of 16ms. I could not ping my server from a Charter School that I was at today. I have one of the old ADSL on a separate line that I had when I switched over from Flashcom. I am very leery of changing to line share to save $10 when I am not getting the service I am paying for now and then get stuck on a new year contract. If one does switch do they get a new modem and the phone filters?
[text was edited by author 2003-09-16 18:59:22] | |
paulhaskew
Unoffical Dominos Spokesman
join:2002-01-10
Vancouver, WA
clubs:
| reply to KatOak
the PDX pop is no longer having the packet loss issues i was seeing over the past week. Not sure if this was corrected with the last two outages that happened this month...
Carl you speak with fluid grace, but remember she is the PR person for the company on these forums, and i beleive that is the reason why she is the only person posting here. As for not releasing exactly what the issue is, I can understand that as well, as the company i work for does the exact same thing. most of the time the EU/End User, you and me, do not get all the information we want. yes we are paying for a service and yes we should get answers to our questions, but you more than anyone from reading your posts, should know that information of this type is not always available to able to be released due to NDA/Contracts and the what not...
/END
--
I post for myself, from myself. Statements made do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer, Charter Communications, or any of its subsidiaries. | |
GamingGirl
join:2003-09-13
Folsom, CA
| reply to KatOak
9/16/03 |
I will email you my information tonight Kat. =) | |
paulhaskew
Unoffical Dominos Spokesman
join:2002-01-10
Vancouver, WA
clubs:
| reply to KatOak
that is way worse than what i am getting, i will post a 24 hour graph tonight when i get home... cheers...
[text was edited by author 2003-09-17 02:01:01] | |
koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
| reply to KatOak
I experienced too many random whacko latency/stalls of up to 10 seconds while RD'ing into home (worked great until about noon, obviously nothing changed on my end) throughout the day. My day was from 07:00 until 17:00.
Came home around 17:30, and noted PP showing the usual heavy packet loss. I spent my evening playing GBA (primarily) and chatting on Messenger, checking my Email at my co-lo off and on (stalling did not happen, but the packet loss was still there). Back to the GBA for awhile, then decided to try to do some co-lo kernel work at around 23:30, shortly prior to bed. Major stalls, a couple sockets never even came back (!). PP shows nothing other than the usual behaviour at this time of night.
Just can't deal with it any longer. Call me when the SFO fix is deployed; I'm still not giving up on SE yet, but they have until the end of the month to provide a full prognosis of what the actual problem is (oversaturation, flaky interfaces, evil Junipers (sorry, I cannot stand those bloody things; pure software routing on border and backbone routers is just plain wrong), packet kids, or whatever it might be).
Once I get a factual explanation, I'll probably stick around for another month after that, just to see if it's solved. Otherwise, consider me gone before the end of the next billing cycle, as I'll move to SBC or DSL Extreme, as two people in my apt. complex (one in my building!) have DSL through those providers and their traceroutes are much more golden.
So I'm back to the cable modem for the next few days. Flippant 25-75ms latency sucks for gaming or anything fun like that, but at least the connection is solid and there aren't stalling sockets, so at a bare minimum I can get some co-lo work done.
--
Making life hard for others since 1977. | |
Bondman
join:2001-08-24
Livonia, MI
| reply to Bondman
Kat:
It is 7:15 in the morning in Southeast Michigan. Below is my ping time for DET.Speakeasy.net this morning.
Ping statistics for 64.81.159.2:
Packets: Sent = 73, Received = 73, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 14ms, Maximum = 22ms, Average = 16ms
I am using the same equipment etc. I get 2 twice the ping times and some packet loss mid-day and in the evening. I have been experiencing issues every night for the past couple of weeks. Either the Chicago POP has been over sold, equipment is failing at higher stress levels or groups of users are coming on mid-day and evening are using excessive bandwidth.
[text was edited by author 2003-09-17 07:43:33] | |
|
