eburger68
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-28
| Dell does not support the removal of spyware
Hi All:
No, I'm not kidding. Apparently, Dell just instituted a new policy in its tech support centers that prohibits its employees from recommending the use of "spyware"-removal tools or advising callers on how to remove "spyware." See this story at Lockergnome:
»channels.lockergnome.com/windows···26.phtml
Scroll down to the section titled "NEWS: Dude! You're Getting a Runaround!"
This kind of corporate behavior is unacceptable and ought to be condemned in the strongest terms.
Best,
Eric L. Howes |
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dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
 ·Verizon Online DSL
 ·Verizon FIOS
| I agree that they're behaving in a chickenshit manner, but on the other hand, what you're essentially asking them to do is to be responsible for everything you've installed on your PC -- you installed some random piece of junk you found on a web site, and it came with 4 or 5 unpleasant extra features. How has it become Dell's responsibility to fix your problems?
So, I don't see that this is some big spectre of "corporate behaviour" that "we" need to stamp out.
Mind you, all I expect from tech support is for them to give me an RMA number when I ask, so maybe I'm atypical. |
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Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
North Myrtle Beach, SC
| reply to eburger68
makes sense only from the standpoint that some of the software that might be use during the warranty period might be considered by some die hards..that it is invasive and spyware ..or tools that their techs would use to help any callin purchaser to help troubleshoot the problem..and I have heard lately that some of the techs ask also that a user does not change any "out of the box" default setting of the OS...I think so that they can help isolate problems faster. Hard to do that over the phone in any case.. well I did not read all that gnome had to report..but I could see this coming for a long time with prebuilt PC..now it would be nice if all these manufactures would have tweaked the OS for it best security settings and then sold them..but that never happened..so I do hope most buyers do accept some "spyware"..especially if they are really just to help assist a tech to fix the box or for Dell to get the latest updates to the buyer since the boxen came off the line since there could be updates by the time it is sold..and then you never really know the quality control of the version or update of software installed..you would like to think that the "line" get the latest installed when you buy..be sometimes that is not the case.
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Gladiator Security Forum »www.gladiator-antivirus.com/ |
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hayc59
VoodooChild
Premium
join:2001-02-26
David R.I.P. | reply to eburger68
Eric, as usual thanks for the heads up!!
you da man!! say NO to spyware
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Proud Owner of OutPost Pro |
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K McAleavey
Premium
join:2003-11-12
Voorheesville, NY
| reply to eburger68
Ain't that something though? And the givers of "hijackware" have also had their legal departments pursuing vendors such as us demanding that we remove some of their "hijackware" from BOClean coverage. So far, we've been able to stand. Dell, and many others (including the major antiviruses) have caved to the pressure. It is FORMIDABLE.
When we started including Hijackware some time ago, we developed very stringent guidelines for what constitutes "hijackware" since this is all complicated by the EULA (License agreement) that people FAIL to read through before installing "freeware" that contains advertising. It IS a contract between you and the purveyors of this stuff. Loss of privacy (or additional use of your machine which you may not have planned on) is usually written right into the agreement, and you're bound by it. Be careful what you install, and take the time to READ the agreement before you install.
Where WE draw the line is when disclosure is NOT made, or what we see more and more frequently of late - if you do NOT agree to the terms, the advertising or hijacking is installed ANYWAY even if you decline the license and do NOT proceed with installing the software which is accompanied by this stuff.
Another factor that gets hijackware to be put onto our "covered" list is where when you UNinstall the software, pieces are left behind, or other malware substituted, or when your system is compromised to allow other things to be installed at a later time without your approval. We go ONLY for the malware itself, not legitimate items that CAN be uninstalled by either uninstalling the program itself or the "add-on" programs clearly listed in the "uninstall menu."
By having this policy set forth when we go for a kill, we do so solely because deception was used as the basis for the installations. Helps to keep us legally "above board" should these vendors come after us. And some have. So far, none have gone to court.
I can understand vendors being reluctant to slice the lines the way we have - it requires an understanding of what is legitimately placed on a machine and what ISN'T. I'm sure Dell isn't the only company with this policy, and it's unfortunate. Folks don't want to pay for software, but there is ALWAYS a price - one way or another, and this is how many have chosen to "get paid" by selling people off to the spammers. You've got to be VERY careful about what you download. And even when you DON'T voluntarily download, there are sites out there that are willing to install nasties by sneaking in through open "ActiveScripting" holes.
One should NEVER surf the "Internet Zone" with scripting lit. For those FEW sites you actually trust, the extra effort of moving them to the "Trusted Sites" zone is your best protection. Please forgive the lecture, but I would have loved to have had the holiday off - instead we're in the lab putting together yet another update for BOClean. Because of THESE things. 
--
Kevin McAleavey support@nsclean.comhttp://www.nsclean.com/ |
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Outsourced
Premium
join:2002-03-17
Holly Springs, NC
| reply to eburger68
With companies like Gator filing lawsuits againt everyone who calls them spyware, they are just protecting themselves from a potential lawsuit.
Most spyware is installed by users who just click yes to everything without reading the fine print. So whether or not they know that they have installed it they have agreed to the installation.
Yes there are also drive by downloads of spyware and there should be lawas against such things, but at the moment there isn't.
Google Search_ gator sues |
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| reply to eburger68
Dell now tells its customers that they cannot change anything from default or the warranty is voided. So, the customer has to lie when they call. Dell's tech support has reached a new low. I had a Supervisor just this week in the Dell Customer Resolution Center talk with me about Spybot and hardware firewalls (which are the two ways he personally controls spyware). He had never heard of Spyware Blaster but was interested when I explained how it works. Even though he discussed security with me, he told me that I couldn't disable any running services on XP Pro.
--
"Everything can be taken from a man or woman but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's destiny." Victor Frankl - Man's Search for Meaning |
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dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio | reply to eburger68
Good point made by the last two posters -- for pity's sake, read things before you click "I agree". |
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eburger68
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-28
3 edits | reply to dave
Dave:
You wrote:
said by dave  :
I agree that they're behaving in a chickenshit manner, but on the other hand, what you're essentially asking them to do is to be responsible for everything you've installed on your PC
No, we're not asking that. Dell's tech support can provide advice to users on how to manage their computers without becoming responsible for each and every single thing that might go wrong on it.
When they realize that their users may well have problems that are attributable to "spyware," Dell can point users in the right direction (to web sites like SpywareInfo and programs like SpyBot S&D and Ad-aware) and limit their tech support to that. For many if not most users, that should be enough. In doing so, Dell doesn't have to become involved in the nitty-gritty details of tech support for those kinds of problems, but they will have at least provided the user with pointers in the right direction.
With this new policy, Dell's tech support employees can't even do that. What they're being asked to do is keep silent about the nature of the problem and how the user might start to go about getting help to resolve the problem from third-party sources.
said by dave :
-- you installed some random piece of junk you found on a web site, and it came with 4 or 5 unpleasant extra features.
A couple problems with this:
1) You're assuming that Dell or the user knows where it came from. Certainly Dell is concerned about classic bundled adware, but until they start getting more information about the user's system, they have no idea where it came from. Even with a program like HijackThis! it can be difficult to tell in some cases just where a program came from. The user may very well have been hit with an auto-installing piece of crapware that exploited known security holes in Internet Explorer. Thus, the user may very well have had no idea that software was even being installed -- there was no knowing decision at all to install the "random junk." We see this all the time in this forum and at others like SpywareInfo. Under Dell's new policy, it won't matter *where* the user picked the software up from because the user will never be told how to get support from third-parties to identify it and remove it.
2) You're assuming that users *know* that the software that they installed was "random junk." When we have a very large industry now with business models based on exploiting people's ignorance about their computers -- even going so far as to disguise "spyware" as updates from Microsoft and even "anti-spyware" applications themselves, and burying key license terms in EULAs that only attorneys can make heads-or-tails of -- average internet users can hardly be expected to be able to distinguish between useful, legitimate applications and "random junk." What you and I know to be "random junk" won't necessarily appear that way to average PC users.
said by dave :
How has it become Dell's responsibility to fix your problems?
No one said it was Dell's responsibility to fix any and every problem with your computer. But this policy has NOTHING to do with that. With the old policy (or lack of a policy, whatever the case may be), the tech support personnel could at least refer users with these kinds of problems to THIRD-PARTIES -- not Dell, not a contractor for Dell -- so that OTHER people on the Net might help users with those problems. Now Dell won't even do that.
said by dave :
So, I don't see that this is some big spectre of "corporate behaviour" that "we" need to stamp out.
When a company of Dell's size makes a profit by selling computers to individuals who rely on them for tech support, Dell has a responsibility at least to point users in the right direction for getting help with problems even if they refuse to involve themselves in the nitty-gritty details of the problems. That's a minimal burden, too: point users to third-party resources. Dell made money off these people, and that money carries some responsibilities.
But now Dell has refused to do even this. They've essentially washed their hands of it and thrown their users -- their customers -- to the dogs.
This is the kind of decision that suits at corporations make. It's the kind of policy values other commercial interests above the needs of individuals -- in this case, paying customers -- and is all too typical of the kind of decision-making going on at corporations these days, esp. in the computer industry. Dell needs to hear from its customers and others in the market that this kind of policy is outrageous.
Eric L. Howes |
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| reply to eburger68
I can't read the EULAs now on this new LCD. I finally got most print to display crisp and clear by using Microsoft Clear Type and Clear Tweak but those applications don't fix the squiggly, faint text in installation boxes and some other popup boxes or the text in some applications such as Spybot Search and Destroy where the text is barely readable.
--
"Everything can be taken from a man or woman but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's destiny." Victor Frankl - Man's Search for Meaning |
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La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
clubs:
 ·Optimum Online
 ·Vonage
| reply to eburger68
said by eburger68 :
Hi All:
No, I'm not kidding. Apparently, Dell just instituted a new policy in its tech support centers that prohibits its employees from recommending the use of "spyware"-removal tools or advising callers on how to remove "spyware."....
How about the fact that Dell computers come with software that is most likely bundled with spyware....they would no doubt have some kind of agreement with these companies to NOT recommend the spyware be removed I would think.
Stinky policy....
--
SB2K »www.sarah-brightman.com |
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Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
| Dell computers come with very little software installed. AOL, Paint Shop Pro 90 days, Quicktime, Real One Player, Windows Media Player, Sonic Record, Music Match Jukebox, Dell Media Experience, Picture Studio and that's it unless you ordered MS Works or MS Office. If you don't bother configuring RealOne, I suppose it spies but that is how any copy of RealOne would be if you leave it at default. I got rid of AOL and Music Match Jukebox. I don't think there is spyware in these programs anymore than if you got them off the internet and didn't configure them. I supposed Dell Picture Studio and Dell Media Experience could have spyware, but I sure haven't noted anything and Spybot has found nothing. My old Dell came with a a lot more software than this one.
--
"Everything can be taken from a man or woman but one thing: the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's destiny." Victor Frankl - Man's Search for Meaning |
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Drunkula
Premium
join:2000-06-12
Denton, TX | reply to eburger68
Man if that is the case then I'll recommend people don't install Dell software (read buy Dell hardware). That is one messed up policy!
--
Crunch for BBR Team Starfire! |
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La Luna
Surviving Ashraful
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
·Vonage
| reply to Mele20
said by Mele20 :
Dell computers come with very little software installed. AOL, Paint Shop Pro 90 days, Quicktime, Real One Player, Windows Media Player, Sonic Record, Music Match Jukebox, Dell Media Experience, Picture Studio and that's it unless you ordered MS Works or MS Office. If you don't bother configuring RealOne, I suppose it spies but that is how any copy of RealOne would be if you leave it at default. I got rid of AOL and Music Match Jukebox. I don't think there is spyware in these programs anymore than if you got them off the internet and didn't configure them. I supposed Dell Picture Studio and Dell Media Experience could have spyware, but I sure haven't noted anything and Spybot has found nothing. My old Dell came with a a lot more software than this one.
You're probably right..it was just a thought based on trying to think WHY they would do this.....it doesn't really make much sense.
--
SB2K »www.sarah-brightman.com |
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eburger68
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-28
3 edits | reply to K McAleavey
Kevin:
Thanks for the informative response. I want to highlight and expand on something important that you said:
said by K McAleavey :
And the givers of "hijackware" have also had their legal departments pursuing vendors such as us demanding that we remove some of their "hijackware" from BOClean coverage. So far, we've been able to stand. Dell, and many others (including the major antiviruses) have caved to the pressure. It is FORMIDABLE.
What Kevin is describing is a serious threat to the right and ability of average computer and internet users to control their own computers and protect their privacy. Let me back up and supply a bit of context for these legal threats.
Since at least 1996 the direct marketing and advertising industry has headed off strong privacy legislation in Congress by telling your Senators and Representatives that there was no need for intrusive government interference in the market to regulate corporate behavior and protect your privacy because the market could solve those privacy problems more effectively and efficiently. Those lobbyists from the marketing and advertising industry even pointed to the availability of third-party privacy applications that users could install to protect their privacy.
Now, any market solution would involve at least two things:
1) Information
To protect their privacy users need information about the threats to their privacy and computers from reputable sources. Those sources of information would ideally include not only "grass-roots" forums and web sites such as this one, but official/commercial tech support provided by software and hardware manufacturers.
2) Tools
Users also need tools that they can use to secure their computers as well as remove unwanted software and other software customizations. Much of the unwanted "hijackware" that we're seeing uses incredibly complicated and sophisticated methods for hijacking people's computers and denying them their privacy. When a new form of crapware is discovered, it can take a team of expert users and programmers at SpywareInfo a couple of days -- in the worst cases, even a week or so -- to get to the bottom of the problem and devise methods and tools for identifying and removing that unwanted crapware. Normal internet users have not the least hope of figuring it out themselves.
That's how a market solution would work: information and tools supplied by private entities to allow individuals to retain control of their PCs and their privacy.
There's just one problem. The purveyors of crapware don't want the market to work, and they're determined to ensure that the market never has the opportunity to provide average PC and internet users with the information and tools they need to protect their privacy. That's the "formidable" pressure that Kevin's describing.
Over the past 6 months or so (perhaps longer), crapware makers have been threatening folks to ensure that YOU don't have the opportunity to get the information and tools that you need. They've threatened information providers like PC PitStop and SpywareInfo. They've threatened software tool makers like Lavasoft and Kevin's own Privacy Software Corp.
Unfortunately, many of those in the "anti-spyware" scene are very vulnerable. Since the term "spyware" was coined for commercial crapware applications back in the Spring and Summer of 2000 (3.5 years ago), the majority of the burden for offering information and tools for "spyware" protection has been carried by private individuals and small companies like Steve Gibson, Patrick Kolla, JavaCool, Merijn, Mike Healan, Andrew Clover, Lavasoft, and a whole host of unpaid volunteers who put up web pages, construct small fixes on the fly, and who provide quality advice to users in support forums all over the internet. (Apologies to anyone unwittingly excluded from that list.) Until very recently, the large corps like Symantec and McAfee didn't offer "spyware" protection in their flagship anti-malware apps.
As Kevin said, this pressure -- these threats -- can be "formidable." Already we've seen larger corps like Dell cave in to the pressure or decide that it simply wasn't worth the trouble. If large corps like Dell are caving, then what of the smaller companies and private individuals such as the ones I mentioned above? How long will they be able to hold out? The crapware industry has secured some feathers for its its cap in the form of legal victories, and they are becoming increasingly brazen in their efforts to shut people up.
Folks, the people who make these tools and this information available to you need your support. They've stood their ground and put themselves at risk where larger corporations have abandoned the field. I hate making plugs like this, but this is too important a battle.
Apologies for the long-ish post. I would normally avoid this kind of polemic in a forum such as this one, but I think we need to be reminded about how vulnerable our protection from the more unseemly elements of the Net really is.
Best regards,
Eric L. Howes |
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K McAleavey
Premium
join:2003-11-12
Voorheesville, NY
| Thanks for the kind words, Eric ... I'm sure most people enjoyed their holiday - unfortunately for those of us in the trenches, it was just another day in the laboratory trying to dissect these things so we can do another update. So often I wish I'd taken another path, I'd have days off. 
What's PARTICULARLY vexing about where "scumware" is headed is that all those kids who wrote "trojaners" are now employees of the spammers nowadays and earning a pretty decent living. Many of these things are taking on the properties of some of the sneakiest backdoors and some are quite difficult to defuse. Meanwhile, for those of us who are handling these things, we're faced with reiviewers who seem more interested in selling "printer ink" on their pages than actually examining the issues and declaring the sky's falling over "zoo trojans" when in fact THESE are the things that actually afflict more machines. When I started seeing some of these installing SPAM relays, we issued a newletter back in September that was an eye-opener for many:
»www.nsclean.com/nws-spam.html
I knew back in 1996 when we began doing this stuff that it was going to be a never-ending tough job, but in the past couple of months, this has gotten completely out of hand as we see with so many people here posting their "Hijack this" logs. And while many may think that folks like us, TDS, Lavasoft and others consist of yuppies wallowing in money, wiping the windshields of their Mercedes, rest assured NONE of us are getting rich for all the work we do. In fact, many of the companies who dedicate their efforts to protecting against this stuff are perhaps one lawsuit away from going under.
Just wanted to say thanks for amplifying the point.
--
Kevin McAleavey support@nsclean.comhttp://www.nsclean.com/ |
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Reese1972
join:2003-03-08
Hazel Park, MI |  reply to eburger68
You can barely understand what the tech support says anyway because most of them barely speak English. (India Connection) |
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BingoBingo
@shawcable.net
| reply to K McAleavey
said by K McAleavey :
....sneaking in through open "ActiveScripting" holes......
Glad I'm using IE. I can specify BLOCK ACTIVE SCRIPTING.
I can't do that on Firebird.
BingoBingo.
Oh yeah. I use trusted zone on Internet Explorer. |
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BingoBingo
@shawcable.net | Or can Firebird do that ?
BingoBingo. |
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Ghastly3
join:2003-06-03
| reply to eburger68
I long ago gave up expecting anything useful from tech support for pretty much any brand but this really is a pretty shameful way to treat paying customers.
What is a complete newbie who has been caught in a popup storm and had their home page hijacked to some really bad porno site and is being inundated with porn popups going to do?
Call tech support, they will help right?
Apparently not!
BAH!
Dell now goes on my list of companies never to buy from or recommend. |
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