AuroraMike
Time To Blow Some Bubbles
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Aurora, CO | reply to borborpa
Re: POP vs. NAP? (change in BOSTON, MA POP)
Business isn't just about cutting costs. Business is also about marketing and generating additional customers. Perhaps a little extra advertising in markets that need more business. I have never seen a Speakeasy advertisement in the Denver area! |
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indigo
join:1999-08-22
Covina, CA
| reply to lakino
As a former (unfortunately) gamer, I can certainly relate to ping times being crucial. I would think those of you in Denver would have plenty of alternative ISPs to choose through Covad. I wouldn't put up with being routed to LA and then out to the internet. The best connection for gaming is to have your ISP's internet connection closeby to where you live. That way you get the best performance both locally and nationally.
I've been through the ping and packet loss game, and it's not pretty. I switched to @home from a dialup back in 1998 and it was horrible. 20% packet loss and bad pings. When I first got DSL back in 2000 (from the local telco) I had a ping of 50ms to my first hop. Made FPSs unplayable. Unfortunately for me there are no CLECs here so I am going to have to get a T1 just so I can game again.. sad, I know, but it's the only thing I can do at this point.
I was considering at one point moving to a town in New Hampshire where speakeasy would be available, but now that they're taking the Boston POP out of commission too, I am just going to get the T1 instead. It really is a shame to hear about Speakeasy's troubles, it sounds to me like they really have been trying to please power users like us but are running into these problems.
People like us shouldn't have to pay through the nose for acceptable latency and liberal AUPs, but that is the reality unfortunately. |
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lakino
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Campbell, CA
| reply to AuroraMike
A-Mike, I feel your pain. It's not that I don't understand your argument. In fact, I fully empathize with you. But it's the tone of the messages that bother me. Perhaps not your messages, but the tone of other messages. It's been written as if SpeakEasy is raising ping times everywhere and purposely to extract extra profits. I don't think that's the case. It's to reduce losses I'm sure.
Also, it may be true that they can't claim to meet the demands of the most demanding customers in Denver and surrounding cities, but they can most likely still claim that for most of the other metro areas they cover.
At any rate, I'm not a SpeakEasy patron. I am neither for or against SpeakEasy. I use PacBell/SBC. Good luck with getting the low latency you desire.
(I do use sfo.speakeasy.net often to test my line speeds.  )
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Why do people like .sig files so much? Baffling to me... |
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borborpa
Slipping Slowly Into Oblivion
Premium
join:2002-02-20
New Cumberland, PA
clubs:
 ·Speakeasy
| reply to AuroraMike
said by AuroraMike  :
quote:
What would you have them do then? Keep the POPs until they run out of money and file for bankruptcy?
I didn't know that Speakeasy was in such a precarious financial position, and that the closing of 3 POP's would stave off a potential bankruptcy. 
I stand corrected!
Ummm...not that it would force them into bankruptcy, but obviously the POP's are not operating at a profit, so they needed to find a way to reduce the cost. It's called business, and even though it may not be the best thing for a few customers, it helps the majority of the customers by freeing up capital. I for one don't want SE to throw money away in a POP in Denver if it's not performing!!!
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There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.[AIM - BoyBandsMakeUGay] |
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AuroraMike
Time To Blow Some Bubbles
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Aurora, CO
| reply to jxsi
quote:
What would you have them do then? Keep the POPs until they run out of money and file for bankruptcy?
I didn't know that Speakeasy was in such a precarious financial position, and that the closing of 3 POP's would stave off a potential bankruptcy.
I stand corrected! |
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jxsi
join:2003-12-04
Tempe, AZ | reply to AuroraMike
What would you have them do then? Keep the POPs until they run out of money and file for bankruptcy? |
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AuroraMike
Time To Blow Some Bubbles
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Aurora, CO
2 edits | reply to lakino
I totally agree with you as it relates to Comcast, having experienced their service directly. BUT, Its clear that Speakeasy is cutting back POP's across the country besides just Denver.
The issue is not just adsl vs cable. For those markets where Speakeasy is cutting back there are other DSL alternatives. In Denver there is Qwest, Covad, Megapath, TransEdge, etc. Many of these ISP's have Denver POP's as well as lower costs.
Speakeasy has marketed themselves as "Internet For The Most Demanding Customers". (Quote for the Website!)
I believe the customers in the affected POP's and those experiencing high latency and other problems have a right to challenge these actions as they were led to believe Speakeasy was a NATIONAL Premium service. (We are after all, the most demanding customers!)
Perhaps it should change to "Internet for the Most Demanding Customers on the East and West Coast" |
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lakino
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Campbell, CA
| reply to Sunburn
Speakeasy is not just doing it to "piss" you gamers off. As been officially explained to you, it's due to financial reasons that they are closing the Denver POP. Get more people in Denver to sign up with them and then they can add the POP back in. Otherwise, move to another city. It's not as if Speakeasy is bringing up ping times for everyone. People on both coasts are still receiving low ping times to their first hop.
For those wishing to move to Comcast, I'd say go right ahead. Once you've tried Comcast, you'll be begging to get back to adsl technology. Low ping times with cable doesn't happen often. But you'll never believe it until you've tried it for yourselves, so go right ahead and switch to Comcast. See for yourselves.
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Why do people like .sig files so much? Baffling to me... |
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Sunburn
join:2000-10-05
Denver, CO
2 edits | reply to GHz
How can Speakeasy do this? They market themselves as a high performance service and make people pay expensive $$$$ premiums to match. The only reason I have a $160/mo SDSL connection is for the great pings! Now they morph themselves in to a service that Qwest could provide @ 1/4th the cost??? WTF kind of sense does that make? Way to trash your brand and ditch your loyal niche customers. Speakeasy kinda reminds me of the CABLE PIG.
I use to ping servers in Denver @ 10-25ms. Now my packet has to bounce from Denver to SFO and back to Denver again. That is 40ms each way for a total of 80ms. 5ms difference is not even close.
I use to be able to ping WC 40ms and EC 40ms now it is at WC 40ms and EC 90ms. You know my Comcast line is at 4200/386 and I am sorry to say the pings are way better than SE from Parker. |
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GHz
join:2002-01-02
Needham, MA
| reply to willjr
I just got notification of the change from POP to NAP for Boston-area customers. I used to be connected directly to the NY POP, and when I was switched to the BOS POP, I hardly noticed a difference. However, my contract will be over soon, and if this transition adds more than a few ms to my gateway pings, I will definitely look elsewhere.
Speakeasy, I have relied on your excellent service for a few years now (with 2 different connections), I hope you won't dissappoint us! |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County | reply to willjr
POP to NAP should not affect any speeds... |
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willjr
join:2000-06-22
Waltham, MA
|  reply to UncleA
 I have just got this POP to NAP news too. My speed has already suffered since I joined speakeasy December 9th. Now it's going to be slower? Might just call my credit card company to dispute my charges. Since speakeasy is no help. I am paying for premium Adsl service for a reason.
I am very disappointed. |
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KatOak
VIP
join:2001-09-10
Seattle, WA
| reply to UncleA
Re: POP vs. NAP? (change in Denver, CO POP)
I apologize for the delay in my response - I was out ill for much of last week.
I will escalate this to determine if we can improve the gateway latency for all customers on this NAP. The decision to change the POP to a NAP was a financial one, as previously mentioned; we don't have enough customers in the Denver region to balance the cost of a local POP. This would also answer UncleA's question regarding the method behind the madness of our POP/NAP architecture - most of these decisions are made because of cost and contractual concerns.
If you have not already provided me with traceroutes, please do so via email and I will include your information in my escalation. I have a few from some of you already, but the more the better.
Unfortunately, we will not be reverting this NAP to a POP any time soon, so the best outcome of my escalation would be to decrease the gateway latency as much as possible. In the absence of that, however, I'm absolutely available to work with any affected customers to resolve their service concerns.
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Kat Oak
Speakeasy
kat@speakeasy.net |
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LloydDobler
join:2002-01-03
Littleton, CO
| reply to borborpa
The change was 'anticipated' to add 5ms to the first hop. we are all seeing first hop ping times with at least 25 ms added. This in itself isn't horrible, but definitely not world class. However, add the time it takes to go from LA to NY instead of Denver to NY, it becomes unacceptable.
Does AA have antilag in it or something? Because while 150 ms ping times may be acceptable in that particular game, Every other FPS i've played, which includes Quake, Quake 2, Quake 3, all quake 3 mods (such as threewave), Unreal, Unreal tournament, etc. do NOT have antilag.
Therefore ping time adds directly to your reflex time. It is a big deal. If this were $30 a month Earthlink DSL I'd expect this kind of service. It's not. It's $65 a month Speakeasy, the gamer's ISP.
Sure, you can learn to predict 150 ms ahead, but when playing against someone with 50 ping, they have a full tenth of a second to react to you before you see them. It turns into a huge disadvantage.
Nowhere did I suggest this was being done on a whim, I was suggesting that they may be doing significant hardware upgrades and was asking if the POP would be restored after those upgrades are done. Considering my speed upgrade isn't scheduled until March, it makes sense to me that they are doing a truckload of work here.
And regardless of whether or not you think I'm overstating the importance of sub 100 ping, every dsl junkie knows that a 50 ms gateway ping is not a high performance connection. They also know that routing from the center of the country to one coast in order to get to the other coast cuts the end user's quality and benefits nobody but the provider.
I pay more than anyone I hang with online for my internet service and I have always had the slowest dl/upload speeds. I used to justify it with the low pings and high reliability. Now I have the highest pings around and only average dl speeds.
This feature list is not worth a premium price anymore. |
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borborpa
Slipping Slowly Into Oblivion
Premium
join:2002-02-20
New Cumberland, PA
clubs:
·Speakeasy
| reply to AuroraMike
said by AuroraMike :
My exact comment was she referenced an increase less than 5 ms. Did she not reference that?
I believe what she said was accurate, but not clear. It adds 5ms to got from Denver to LA. Then from LA, you'll get the same ping times as those from LA, so East Coast will ping higher than before, because you're going west, then east.
--
There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.[AIM - BoyBandsMakeUGay] |
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AuroraMike
Time To Blow Some Bubbles
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Aurora, CO
2 edits | reply to CylonRed
I did not imply anything other than the fact that I will not pay $90 a month for 100+ ping times. My exact comment was she referenced an increase less than 5 ms. Did she not reference that?
I don't see anything in my post about a guaranty so please don't try to read my mind!
Additionally, if you read the posts, everyone in Denver is getting 35ms+ additional east coast latency as a result of the NAP (choosing my words carefully so I don't imply anything)
Shouldn't a company like Speakeasy know what the impact of changing from a POP to a Nap will be. If Scooby2 in his post above knows what the impact will be shouldn't Speakeasy?
BTW - I like Speakeasy and have been very satisfied with their service, but this has been very disappointing. |
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
1 edit | reply to AuroraMike
Covad might be able to reprovision the line to see if it better... You have her quote wrong as well... you forgot 'anticipated" - she guaranteed nothing as you seemed to imply. |
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AuroraMike
Time To Blow Some Bubbles
Premium
join:2002-01-06
Aurora, CO
| reply to Maxxxt
I agree. While I'm satisfied with the stability of my connection, I don't believe a 100+ east coast ping is worth $90 a month. Looks like I'll be looking for an alternative soon. Fortunately lots of alternatives in Denver.
I would like to know what happened to the "less than 5ms increase in ping time" as referenced by Kat above.
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CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
| reply to Maxxxt
I have been routed from Dayton, Ohio to San Jose (where the POP for me was located) with another ISP before (and raced online with a 180-250 MS ping to that gateway with all servers on the EAST coast)... Been there, done that, had no real problems. AA is probably the most demanding FPS out - in terms of info sent and raw horsepower needed.
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Brian
America's Army Forum Moderator and America's Army Beta Tester |
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Maxxxt
Peculiar Mental Twist
Premium
join:2001-06-12
Denver, CO
clubs:
| reply to UncleA
CylonRed I dont play AA very much, howerver I do play other games where ping under 75ms is crucial. What if Speakeasy were to Yank Chicago and route you to NYC and tell me how you would feel about that?
A note I just E-mailed to KAT about this.
Hi KAT,
I really need to tell you(and the big bosses at Speakeasy) I am very upset over the recent decision to change the Denver POP to a NAP. My latency has gone up over 50ms from east coast locations. My speed has dropped over 300kbps to east coast locations. When I signed up with Speakeasy the SINGLE LARGEST consideration for me was the local Denver POP. I was NOT notified about these changes and I feel betrayed. The truth is I expected thing to get better here. The talk of improving equipment in all the POP's, my participation in the Gaming trail was supposed to be an effort to keep the gaming community in mind and to make our connections faster. The price reductions were nice...as a matter of fact, necessary for me to afford this service. However I am not willing to pay a premium(DSL GAMER package) for service that is no longer, in my opinion Premium. I am an online gamer, I play Battlefield 1942, Desert combat, and game with friends(that live here in Denver)on my connection here in Denver, this decision has ruined the fast ping times and speed. I hope the powers that be understand what the hell they have done and reconsider this change. I know that my next door neighbor is getting 25-50ms ping anywhere in the country 3000/256 with Comcast broadband right now for less than I pay now. I hope you can use some of your "magic" powers that get most problems resolved. I am asking you to please speak to the appropriate persons in charge of this.
Thank you for your time and consideration in this matter, |
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