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tomsprat
Draw Me A "Cold One"
Premium,ExMod 2002-04
join:2000-11-03
Fort Lauderdale, FL
clubs:
| reply to acitrano
Re: Who moved my job? (link)
quote:
The anti-offshoring argument rings especially hollow in light of the continued decline in American joblessness.
Don't let Bush & Co. fool you. The Unemployment Rate is compiled from statistics that reflect those who are actively collecting unemployment benefits. Once those benefits are depleted, the recipients "drop off the radar screen". This country has suffered economically for quite some time, therefore, the majority of those who became unemployed because of it have already collected their benefits and are no longer counted among the ranks of the unemployed.
As previously stated, sending jobs overseas only puts money in the pockets of big business. This country has invested decades in protecting the rights of the American worker, only to see them quickly eroding away under this Administration. The companies who send jobs overseas don't even want to pay minimum wage. What do you think this does to the American job market? I've spoken with numerous people who lost their jobs, due to the economy. Some have found employment, some haven't. Most have taken a pay cut, but I haven't met anyone who moved up.
The Administration is now pushing for the Fair Trade Agreement. Why do you think that is? It's because products can be manufactured outside this country for much less, primarily due to workers who will labor for incomes that are considered to be below the poverty level in this country.
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Anything that ever was, was once a dream... | |
TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
 ·Charter Pipeline
| said by tomsprat  :
Don't let Bush & Co. fool you. The Unemployment Rate is compiled from statistics that reflect those who are actively collecting unemployment benefits. Once those benefits are depleted, the recipients "drop off the radar screen".
Do you honestly think these problems will be fixed by a different administration? Foolishness. It's all foolishness.
These are big time issues and blaming them on single adminstrations or individuals reduces them to bickering and whining.
I'm one of those people that lost his job thanks to "global sourcing" -- a.k.a. paying an Indian guy 1/5 of my salary with no benefits who can turn work around 50% faster because his daytime is America's nighttime. I don't blame the loss of my job on Bush, Clinton or any other politico.
I blame it on the incomprehensible and ever-mysterious phrase "that's just the way it is". Patriotism and isolationist protections can only take you so far. Your stockholders will piss on your shoes, pants, shirt and face if your patriotism costs them money. It's easy to blame the CEOs of this world, but a lot of us would do the same thing in their position.
So yeah - I'm bitter. But I've learned something from the whole thing. Don't expect anything from anyone. Work your butt off. Develop skills that are portable. Always be working on the next new "thing". And position yourself to develop ideas, not do work.
Ultimately, we can talk about fairness and all that jazz, but it's each of our responsibilities to take care of ourselves.
Man - I'm in a sour mood now.:)
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Hey - there's this thing called spell check... | |
acitrano
join:2002-04-13
Venice, CA
| said by TheMadSwede :
Ultimately, we can talk about fairness and all that jazz, but it's each of our responsibilities to take care of ourselves.
that sums it up very well, right there. very well said.
Another thing that amazes me is the people who complain about the loss of American labor, yet they go to Wal Mart and buy piles of imported products. | |
ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana
4 edits | reply to TheMadSwede
said by TheMadSwede :
Ultimately, we can talk about fairness and all that jazz, but it's each of our responsibilities to take care of ourselves.
...on a level playing-field.
Do you think the playing-field is level? Do you think that "stockholders" have any real power? Isn't it really the CEO and politico good 'ol boy network (i.e. "let's serve on each other's boards and swap raises/favors"). Have you ever been to a shareholder meeting? ...'know what happens if you stand up to speak unfavorably? (people gasp and nothing happens).
We need a shareholder revolution. Ralph Nader...where are you?
quote:
Another thing that amazes me is the people who complain about the loss of American labor, yet they go to Wal Mart and buy piles of imported products.
When your real job has gone to India you have no choice but to shop at Wal Mart (besides -- you'll get an employee discount)
Also I don't recall Wal-Mart selling Computer Reservation Systems, Railroad Routing, Telecom systems, Websites, DSP video modules or help-desk support (etc. etc.)
When Manufacturing jobs left (over the last 20 years) the argument about "moving up the food chain" at least held-water. But now that our very best hi-tech jobs are going -- we've nothing left but lower-paid defense jobs. Those are generated by an administration that is chasing thugs and zealots with F-18's and F-22's (bought on-credit) -- in lieu of a real "war on terror" (it makes for great footage on CNN though) | |
TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline
| said by ronpin :
said by TheMadSwede :
Ultimately, we can talk about fairness and all that jazz, but it's each of our responsibilities to take care of ourselves.
...on a level playing-field.
Do you think the playing-field is level?
Where'd you get the idea that the playing field has to be level? This is life, not utopia.
What does a level playing field look like? Basically, your idea of a level playing field may not appear quite as level to someone else, whether they be in India or China or the Dominican Republic.
You don't want a level playing field, you want greater government involvement and reach in business for your own benefit.
And regarding being a shareholder at a meeting, how many shares do you own? If you own 1000 shares of a stock that has over a hundred million shares outstanding, do you really think you have a voice? With your .001% stake?
It's too easy to blame CEOs and "good old boy" networks and politicians for problems that are much deeper-rooted than silly business practices.
You want the world to be fair. That's not going to happen.
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Hey - there's this thing called spell check... | |
ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana
1 edit | said by TheMadSwede :
You want the world to be fair. That's not going to happen.
...And voting rights for Women and minorities is just silly. Social Security will never happen. Monopolies can't be reigned-in. Worker saftey should be left to employers. Wall Street doesn't need any oversight from the SEC.
I'm sure your great at what you do -- but let's hope for a 'lil more imagination when it comes to what goals we set for our government. Our parents had greater hopes for Government -- we should do the same. | |
tomsprat
Draw Me A "Cold One"
Premium,ExMod 2002-04
join:2000-11-03
Fort Lauderdale, FL
clubs:
| reply to acitrano
quote:
said by TheMadSwede :
Ultimately, we can talk about fairness and all that jazz, but it's each of our responsibilities to take care of ourselves.
that sums it up very well, right there. very well said.
Another thing that amazes me is the people who complain about the loss of American labor, yet they go to Wal Mart and buy piles of imported products.
Sorry, but I think that’s just plain silly. Certainly, government can’t be expected to take care of everyone and guarantee their futures, but the reason for their existence is to protect the best interests of their populous. If laws didn’t exist, murder, extortion, rape, and a host of other activities that we, as a society, deem to be unacceptable, would run rampant.
Of course we need to take care of ourselves, but there also needs to be policies set and enforced that protect us from those who take advantage. Wal-Mart touted their “Made in the USA” campaign for years, until two studies in 1998 revealed that 90% of the apparel items were produced overseas, many in countries where sweatshops and child labor are prevalent. Once the media revealed the secret, there was public outrage, and it was only then that Wal-Mart changed their buying policies. Give credit to the public, but certainly not the corporations or the government.
Who can blame the public for buying products that are legally available to them? Are we all supposed t o research the origin of every product, including parts that may have been manufactured in the U.S., if the country of origin has fair labor standards, or if the tariffs imposed on their importation are fair and equitable? That’s the government’s job.
The U.S. has had the most open international trade policies for decades, although other countries impose unreasonable tariffs and restrictions on our products. Try buying a GM vehicle or parts for them in Japan. We wanted to set an example for the rest of the world, but were, and are, being taken advantage of. China is the worst offender. Children work in sweatshops for less than $.25 an hour to produce goods that are exported to the U.S. and we accept their trade to maintain relations and promote corporate revenue. How can American workers compete with products that are manufactured so inexpensively?
Bush isn’t the only one to blame. As much as I liked Clinton’s Administration, one of his biggest screw-ups was NAFTA. His intentions paralleled Bush’s. Corporate greed. If you recall his arguments for NAFTA, he claimed that it would open the markets, so that all could compete fairly. What a croc! In 2002, imports from Mexico outpaced exports to the country by $3.5 billion. But Mexico wasn't alone in exporting more to the United States than it imported from U.S. shores. Deficits were also recorded with most other major trading partners, as the gap with Japan reached $6.4 billion, and $9.4 billion with Western Europe. In light of such fears, the politically sensitive deficit with China renewed its record by hitting $13.6 billion, as imports of $16.4 billion far outpaced the level of U.S. exports to the country totaling $2.9 billion. So far this year, the trade gap with China has reached $103.3 billion.
NAFTA was a bad decision for the American people, but a boon for many American corporations. Zenith, for example, moved it’s manufacturing plants there, due to decreased labor costs for manufacturing and for taxes. They are only one on a long list. In addition to lowering costs, they were ultimately forced to, due to competition from Japan, China, and South Korea, who could manufacture, export and sell electronic products at a wholesale price that was less than those manufactured here by Zenith. Was Zenith paying too much to its’ employees by paying minimum wage?
Recent declarations about the improvement in the U.S. economy would be amusing if they weren’t so pathetic. Like the federal deficit, the U.S. trade deficit has set an all-time record, surpassing $40 Billion . The upcoming election necessitates the existing Administration to, not only disguise existing figures, but the true intentions of changes to come. Free trade serves only one purpose, to lower costs and increase profits for corporations and the rich all at a cost to the American worker. If you don’t believe this is true, you may wish to review the warning signs that, at present, consist of the decrease in worker benefits that have already begun to expose themselves, e.g. the drastic decrease in health benefits provided by employers.
I happen to be fortunate. I am self-employed and, therefore, control my own destiny. Not everyone in my position, however, yet contribute greatly to our society and its’ philosophy for individual rights, as it is a combination of individuals that determine the greatness of their country. We have spent centuries fighting for individual rights. Should we now throw all of that away for the benefit of a few?
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Anything that ever was, was once a dream... | |
ebaykeith
Bandwidth Hog
Premium
join:2003-09-06
San Ramon, CA
clubs:
| reply to ronpin
said by ronpin :
When your real job has gone to India.....
When Manufacturing jobs left (over the last 20 years) the argument about "moving up the food chain" at least held-water. But now that our very best hi-tech jobs are going -- we've nothing left but lower-paid defense jobs.
I for one am in that "hi-tech" job you speak of, designing GUI and Web based applications for one of the largest U.S. employers.
Yes, IT jobs are going overseas to India and the Philippines. But, in no way are the hi-tech jobs leaving and going with them, on the contrary. Movement of maintenance on massive legacy IT systems are going overseas where it can be maintained for an eighth or quarter the cost it does here in the U.S. Thus, freeing up the already over worked stateside IT professional to forge U.S. companies ahead with new technologies and innovative systems, eventually replacing the legacy systems sent overseas for maintenance.
At least in my company we aren't losing any IT jobs to the IT jobs we're moving overseas, we just aren't creating any more new high paying IT jobs than we need to, economy won't allow it.
So, rather than pay our seasoned employees to maintain old legacy systems, we move the systems to cheaper markets and free up the IT expertise we have (we didn't get rid of them) to build new innovative systems that replace the old legacy systems shipped overseas. That's the whole plan from my companies perspective anyway. Get the old crap out of here and allow us to use the current workforce we have to build, replace, and shut down the legacy crap overseas, keeping the U.S. in the forefront as a world leader, still.
I for one, am glad to get rid of the maintenance work we do and move on to newer technologies where I can actually learn new skills and improve my marketability. India and the Philippines on the other hand, maintaining our old systems and technologies, will be screaming foul when we pull the plug. All the good jobs will still be in the U.S.
I guess we could keep that old crap around here, hire even more people to come in a maintain it, and lay them all off when the new systems replace them. This way the hi-tech IT jobs remain here in the U.S., and we'll have several thousand more IT professionals out on the job market competing for that same job working the drive thru window at McDonald's in a couple of years when we replace the legacy system we hired them to maintain with the new.
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If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird- | |
ronpin
Imagine Reality
join:2002-12-06
Nirvana
1 edit | said by ebaykeith :
I guess we could keep that old crap around here, hire even more people to come in a maintain it, and lay them all off when the new systems replace them.
That pretty much describes the Software Contractor market. Some of us rather liked those jobs. As you probably know it takes a lot of talent and experience to take-on maintenance for code you didn't write. It's perfect for a mature contractor who is willing to work a few months at a time to fix or upgrade legacy systems. It works even better if the contractor can get some face-time with one of the original developers-- that is a meeting in the same building/country.
I tend to agree with those that say this 'lil experiment with offshoring will fail when it comes to the esoteric art of software. I don't believe that an Eastern culture like India can cope or compete with the bastardized coding we do in America. We take the discipline of Software Engineering and put marketing-spin and unrealistic deadlines on it -- like it was a construction project or something. So developers are forced to abandon good practices and dance-through to a version 2 when things can get fixed. All of this in a noisy cube environment at that.
I don't think the Indians I know will tolerate that. They'll do disciplined code with quality checks and source-code control. HA! they'll never compete with the meat-ball code we're forced to do here. Corporations will find that it takes at least twice as long to get code that only the Developer in India can maintain. Initial bug-fixes will take weeks instead of days. Users are way too fickle for that. Eventually user-groups will seek other options... | |
TheMadSwede
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Holland, MI
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to ronpin
said by ronpin :
said by TheMadSwede :
You want the world to be fair. That's not going to happen.
...And voting rights for Women and minorities is just silly. Social Security will never happen. Monopolies can't be reigned-in. Worker saftey should be left to employers. Wall Street doesn't need any oversight from the SEC.
I'm sure your great at what you do -- but let's hope for a 'lil more imagination when it comes to what goals we set for our government. Our parents had greater hopes for Government -- we should do the same.
I probably didn't expound as much as I could have to make my point. So here it is (kinda re: your examples).
I like my government when it supports free speech and people's rights (like voting). I do not like my government when it makes too many decisions for me, like forcing my participation in a plan that won't be around to help me retire (I'm just a kid, more or less). Like taxing and taxing and taxing and taxing. And regulating and regulating and regulating and regulating.
So our fine government could do as you wish and regulate companies more to prevent jobs from going offshore and all that crazy stuff. But that's not going to make the world fair. I guess that was my point.
My parents and their parents who came on a stupid boat from Sweden didn't have or set goals for their government. They had hopes and goals they set for themselves.
(start playing violin music)
My grandfather was treated poorly because he was an immigrant. Did he lobby for new immigration laws? No - he learned to speak English without an accent and started his own business. He became a citizen and voted and did all the rights things, but he didn't expect the government to solve all the woes of the world for him.
I think we all agree here more than we think. Perhaps I came off too arrogant in trying to make my point.
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Hey - there's this thing called spell check... | |
ebaykeith
Bandwidth Hog
Premium
join:2003-09-06
San Ramon, CA
clubs:
| reply to ronpin
99.9% of all the contract workers my company has been hiring for short term jobs have all been Indian, from India. Cheaper to take it to them and pay them there rather than exploded US contract prices, and it frees up current IT employees to concentrate on the new technologies that are replacing the systems sent overseas. Makes perfect business sense to me.
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If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird- | |
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