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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9
| If it's my hardware........ If it's my hardware, I'll do whatever the hell I want to it. It's asinine to have the bandwidth cap programed into the customers hardware. That's like a bank keeping the key to the vault in everyone's safety deposit box. The cable modem is a bridge, and with the exception of encryption, it should only function as a bridge. It would not be so hard to limit bandwidth per IP address at the node. This whole situation is just stupid. | |
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Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
| Re: If it's my hardware........ said by Rexter  :
If it's my hardware, I'll do whatever the hell I want to it. It's asinine to have the bandwidth cap programed into the customers hardware. That's like a bank keeping the key to the vault in everyone's safety deposit box. The cable modem is a bridge, and with the exception of encryption, it should only function as a bridge. It would not be so hard to limit bandwidth per IP address at the node. This whole situation is just stupid.
No, Limiting bandwidth at the CMTS using QoS or other traffic flow methods wastes processor cycles/CMTS CPU power. The modems were meant to be this way it is part of the docsis specs.
In 1.1 and 2.0 systems the CMTS's are more "efficient" at handling pure QoS traffic control but it is still better off to limit the bandwidth at the modem.
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Forum Posts:4004 | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9
| Re: If it's my hardware........ I understand that it's in the specs. The point that I am making is that the specs are flawed. No other HSI service, that I know of, works this way. It is the responsibility of th ISP to maintain their network on their end, not on the customers end, not on the customers equipment. | |
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Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
Premium,MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state
| Re: If it's my hardware........ said by Rexter :
I understand that it's in the specs. The point that I am making is that the specs are flawed. No other HSI service, that I know of, works this way. It is the responsibility of th ISP to maintain their network on their end, not on the customers end, not on the customers equipment.
There were plenty fo DSL providers who used to set caps at the customers DSL/router instead of the DSLAM. The ISP is maintaining their network just because part of the control is placed in an area the customer is not supposed to be accessing anyway doesn't exactly make it flawed. Just different.
What is flawed is manufacturers not bothering to test that their modems were up to spec. Manufacturers with "leaks" giving out shelled firmware so that firmware coders know exactly what they have to work with, etc, etc.
The bottom line is that as is this really does not effect much. It is easy to catch the users who decide to uncap if the ISP wants too and the "etherboot" method of install Sigma is far to challenging to the average user who has no cable making/soldering knowledge
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Forum Posts:4004 | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9
| Re: If it's my hardware........ said by Qumahlin :
There were plenty fo DSL providers who used to set caps at the customers DSL/router instead of the DSLAM.
First off I'm not so sure that this is true. But even so the key word would be "used to." | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | Re: If it's my hardware........ There are no grounds for legal action over cable modem hacking. | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
| Re: If it's my hardware........ An EULA is only a "contract" between parties. Worse they could do is terminate someone's service and -maybe- bill them something extra. Some cable companies have tried to get people charged with "theft of service" crimes, but since cable internet isn't regulated, theft of service laws don't apply. | |
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xpkranger
RIP Georgia Theater
Premium
join:2000-10-27
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| Re: If it's my hardware........ Perhaps you're right, but I wouldn't want to be the one to test it out, at least not against the lawyers I work for. Besides, I've got 3000K already. (wish I had better upstream though - too bad I can't give back .5 for upstream) Even if it doesn't violate the letter of the agreement, I think that it does violate the spirit. Either way, I'm definitely not going to be the first one to cast a stone. (Graveyards in my closets and all...) Good luck!
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When I die, I want to die like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car.-Author Unknown | |
| | | | | | | | medici
join:2001-02-22
Shohola, PA
| IANAL, and I don't think you are, either. A contract is a legally binding document. Once you've agreed to the terms of service and accepted the contract, you are liable for any breaches of those terms. Straightforward contract law. If the cable company wants to make an example of you, they can sue for theft of service, disruption of business, their costs to investigate and mitigate your unauthorized use, legal fees and punitive damages.
Also, AFAIK, there is no requirement of specific legislative protection in order to prosecute theft of service.
What I find is interesting is that ISP's seem to have plenty of money to spend on capping customer's bandwidth, detecting modem hackers, tracking bandwidth utilization and penalizing so-called bandwidth hogs. But when it comes to stuff like firewall protection, junk email filtering, virus protection, traffic shaping, and just good old customer education and support, that's too expensive (even though there are plenty of free or low-cost tools to address most of these categories). | |
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xpkranger
RIP Georgia Theater
Premium
join:2000-10-27
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: If it's my hardware........ Where is the the line though between civil and criminal? If I go and take the filters off the line that at eye level on the side of my house and allow HBO, Cinemax, et al in to my house they're sure going to try have me prosecuted for criminal theft of services. And if there's a lawyer in the bunch out there, where does the DMCA fall into all of this? I thought it might have something to say about it. Also, does the law vary from state to state or is it Federal because of the ICC?
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When I die, I want to die like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car.-Author Unknown | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
| said by medici :
IANAL, and I don't think you are, either. A contract is a legally binding document. Once you've agreed to the terms of service and accepted the contract, you are liable for any breaches of those terms. Straightforward contract law.
Signing up with an ISP is not a contract agreement in the way two corporations sign a contract to do business with each other. I have yet to see the TOS of a cable ISP state that they will sue you or you could be arrested if you hack your modem. No, the worse they can do is cancel your service and maybe charge you some kind of cancellation fee, -if- it's in their TOS.
said by medici :
If the cable company wants to make an example of you, they can sue for theft of service, disruption of business, their costs to investigate and mitigate your unauthorized use, legal fees and punitive damages.
In a case like that, the TOS would most likely work against the ISP. The "theft of service" charge would be hard for the ISP to make stick, since the courts have previously said that it's difficult to quantify just how much "service" was stolen.
said by medici :
Also, AFAIK, there is no requirement of specific legislative protection in order to prosecute theft of service.
I do believe there is, especially with cable. Modem hacking is a simple TOS violation, nothing more.
said by medici :
What I find is interesting is that ISP's seem to have plenty of money to spend on capping customer's bandwidth, detecting modem hackers, tracking bandwidth utilization and penalizing so-called bandwidth hogs. But when it comes to stuff like firewall protection, junk email filtering, virus protection, traffic shaping, and just good old customer education and support, that's too expensive (even though there are plenty of free or low-cost tools to address most of these categories).
They certainly aren't spending that money on upgrading their networks if they feel the need to crack down on "bandwidth hogs". | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9
| said by medici :
But when it comes to stuff like firewall protection, junk email filtering, virus protection, traffic shaping, and just good old customer education and support, that's too expensive (even though there are plenty of free or low-cost tools to address most of these categories).
I really don't want my ISP to do this stuff. This is something that I want full control of. You have to keep in mind that security comes at the expense of functionality. It would be nice to have it maybe as an option, but based on past events, they are more likely to just force it on everyone. | |
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pit_viper
1 Shot, 1 Kill, No Remorse, I Decide
join:2002-07-24
Play_Hockey
| said by JakCrow :
There are no grounds for legal action over cable modem hacking.
No but a company can take civil action....
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"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded" | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9 | Re: If it's my hardware........ I agree, but they would have to prove damages. | |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Perhaps not in California, but in PA, one could argue that Pa. C.S. sec 910 Manufacture, distribution, use or possession of devices for theft of telecommunications systems might. The statute states that:
"Any person commits an offense if... for commission of theft of a telecommunications service or to disrupt,transmit, decrypt, yadda yadday yadda.... or acquisition of any telecommunications service without the consent of the telecommunications service provider."
The statute does specifically mention the modification of devices connected to a telecommunications network, and does not differentiate based on the ownership of the device. The statute also specifically states that the definition of a Telecommunications service is " any service provided by any radio,telephone,cable television, satellite,microwave, or wireless distribution system, including, but not limited to, any and all electronic, data,video, audio, Internet access, telephonic, microwave and radio communications, transmissions, signals and services.
First offense is a misdemeanor first degree, second offense is a felony.
How long do you think it is before Comcast goes after people for uncapping their modems. All they have to do is give the evidence to the local PD and shazamm, your name too, can be on the top of a criminal complaint.
Since I have no desire to be the test case, I will NOT be uncapping my modem. I don't have a legal plan that robust.
Besides, the "It's my hardware" argument is an illogical one, considering your cell phone is your hardware, you're not allowed to tinker with it, your cable box could be your hardware, you can't tinker with it to get free spice channel. Your CAR is your own hardware, but drive it on the road with no plates and no insurance, and expect to get a ticket....
Once again, just my 2 cents | |
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DadeMurphy
Rbettenc
Premium
join:2002-07-25
Danvers, MA
clubs: | Re: If it's my hardware........ Cable HSI is not considered telecommunications. | |
| | | | | | | | medici
join:2001-02-22
Shohola, PA | Re: If it's my hardware........ It is in PA. And it might be subject to interpretation elsewhere if you use VoIP. | |
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FreeBSDNut
@pacbell.n
|  Re: If it's my hardware........
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| | | | | | | | | | sharksfan3
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Poughkeepsie, NY | Re: If it's my hardware........ At the fed level you might be ok... but not the state. | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by Qumahlin :
The bottom line is that as is this really does not effect much. It is easy to catch the users who decide to uncap if the ISP wants too and the "etherboot" method of install Sigma is far to challenging to the average user who has no cable making/soldering knowledge
Oh i'm sure soon there'll be a flood of sites offering 'pre-modded surfboards' once this gets out.
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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Ronin4740
join:2000-05-03
Saint Charles, MO
| Gawd... Okay, it's your TV - Does that make it legal to hack the cable connection so you get HBO, Showtime, etc... for free?
Yep, the modem is your hardware and yep you can use it to connect to the cable modem network but read the AUP for practically any cable internet service and you items which prohibit uncapping modems and/or modifying firmware.
Inlcuded for reference: Charter's AUP and Customer Agreement Links
»www.charter.com/site/rules.asp#aup
»www.charter.com/site/customeragreement.asp
Mod your firmware and/or uncap at your own risk. A simple query of the modem from the cable company's NOC will reveal your actions and may subject you to termination of service.
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DSL? Why not Cable! | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9 |  Re: If it's my hardware........
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Rhobite
Premium
join:2002-02-24
Cambridge, MA
clubs:
| It's not legal to receive channels you don't pay for. But you have to fault the cable companies for putting trusted equipment in the hands of consumers. Granted there's not much they can do technically (I'm not talking about whether it's illegal or not) about protecting TV signals, but they can certainly enforce caps at the headend rather than the CM.
It's against the AUP to sniff your neighbors' traffic, but the fact that this is even possible is 100% the fault of the cable companies. I don't even have cable HSI anymore - but it's kind of shocking that I could dust off my old SB4200, take the filter off my cable, and sniff my neighbors' traffic, without even being a subscriber. | |
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insomniac
Oh Yeah
Premium
join:2002-09-22
Naperville, IL
clubs:
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: If it's my hardware........ To re-cap, you should just be able to reset it and let it get the config file from the ISP instead of the customized one from your spoofed TFTP server, right? That's how I understand it, but I have no experience in actually uncapping my modem because I've never seen the risk of losing my service as "worth it."
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If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something. | |
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Jeremy341
Bye
Premium
join:2000-01-06
localhost
| said by b_zen :
By the way, how do you "re"cap your modem???
You "re"boot it, and allow it to get the configuration file off the ISP's TFTP server like it's supposed to. | |
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b_zen
Premium
join:2002-07-24
Saint Louis, MO
clubs: | Re: If it's my hardware........ Thank "re"you | |
| | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| said by Ronin4740 :
...Yep, the modem is your hardware and yep you can use it to connect to the cable modem network but read the AUP for practically any cable internet service and you items which prohibit uncapping modems and/or modifying firmware.
I'm not questioning the AUP of the cable companies and obviously, if you rent your modem you have no right whatsoever to modify it.
However, if you buy and own your own modem, this amounts to the cable company restricting your use of your property. It's similar to the MPAA saying you can't skip commercials on a DVD you own or the phone company saying you can only make 5 phone calls an hour over our network.
If they don't want people uncapping their modems, maybe they should move control of the caps to the CMTS. Or not let people use their own modems. | |
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Aggie Dan
Stop... Reverse That.
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Frisco, TX
clubs:
| Re: If it's my hardware........ said by nasadude :
or the phone company saying you can only make 5 phone calls an hour over our network.
Or... Ummm... Maybe having the cell phone company restricting the number of minutes you can use on their network?
Outrageous I tell you.
[/sarcasm]
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Note : The statements made by myself are my own and not the opinions of my employer or of my coworkers. 14.327 GHz Crunching Power | The Ryan Foundation for MPS Children | |
| | | | tonekilla
Pipe Dreams
Premium
join:2003-07-26
Gunnison, MS
clubs: | Re: If it's my hardware........ What are you talking about? they want you to use the hell out of their network, so they can then charge the hell out of you.
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Gotta love SBC's 6000/608 plan for $44.99! | |
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Aggie Dan
Stop... Reverse That.
Premium
join:2001-01-30
Frisco, TX
clubs:
| Re: If it's my hardware........ If you look at the higher charges once you go over your time allotted by your package as a penalty... Then the overage charges are similar to any fines or loss of network connection that your cable company would do.
Granted, the cable company takes a harsher stance. But, they are in effect the same thing.
This is, of course, neglecting the prepaid cell phones. Once those run out of minutes, you're done until you go buy some more minutes.
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Note : The statements made by myself are my own and not the opinions of my employer or of my coworkers. 14.327 GHz Crunching Power | The Ryan Foundation for MPS Children | |
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Clocker1000
join:2001-05-24
Sterling Heights, MI
·Comcast
·WOW Internet and C..
| Re: If it's my hardware........ I agree. It's just like the laws we have with respect to driving cars.
My car can go over 100mph but I'm restricted with how I can drive it on my 'network' of roads (which I pay for with my tax dollars).
The same goes for my cable modem. I can use it on the network but I better conform with the network rules. Some people just have to have something to bitch and complain about I guess.
C | |
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Jeremy341
Bye
Premium
join:2000-01-06
localhost
| said by nasadude :
However, if you buy and own your own modem, this amounts to the cable company restricting your use of your property.
You can do whatever the hell you want with your own cable modem, and nobody will say a word. But once you plug it into your cable company's network, you're using their service, and you're agreeing to their rules. If you don't like their rules, you can lease a modem, or go somewhere else. | |
| | | pilferk3
join:2004-02-11
Pine Meadow, CT
| I'm not sure that's a valid analogy. People own DirectTV set tops, yet DirecTV controls content to that box. There are plenty of content providers who "control" the content via some sort of "control" on consumer owned equipment.
There is consumer choice: Connect to the providers content and allow them some measure of control over the equipment you own OR choose not to conncet to the providers content. Thus, the reason for the EULA/TOS agreement.... | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| Re: If it's my hardware........ said by aitech :
If you turn off syslogging, and change tree walking - no, they cannot simply "query the modem" and find out what your doing.
No matter what you do to your modem, an uncapped modem will stick out like a sore thumb at the CMTS on their QoS profiles. only way to 'hide' is to uncap to a higher level of service the company offers. on providers like OOL its not possible as they offer only one speed (10000/1000).
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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Wall9
Tell Me, Did You See It Too?
Premium
join:2002-06-25
Dupo, IL | Mod it sure. It's yours. Having uncapped HSI is not yours. What's stupid about it?
You sound as if you're placing the blame on ISP's. | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
Healbot
Premium
join:2003-07-16
Vancouver, WA | Yeah but its there bandwidth, how else can they cap you? Image 10 people using all of the node(?) bandwidth and then the people getting 50/50 come to DSLreports and bitch about how cable is so slow | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9 | Re: If it's my hardware........ Just about any router has the ability to restrict bandwidth based on MAC or IP address. Yes it does consume resources on the router, but if you are going to be an ISP, you've gotta do what you gotta do. | |
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pit_viper
1 Shot, 1 Kill, No Remorse, I Decide
join:2002-07-24
Play_Hockey
| said by Rexter :
If it's my hardware, I'll do whatever the hell I want to it. It's asinine to have the bandwidth cap programed into the customers hardware. That's like a bank keeping the key to the vault in everyone's safety deposit box. The cable modem is a bridge, and with the exception of encryption, it should only function as a bridge. It would not be so hard to limit bandwidth per IP address at the node. This whole situation is just stupid.
To use the service you agree to those terms, if you don't like it get off
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"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded" | |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9 |  Re: If it's my hardware........
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JoeBillyBob
@68.87.x.x
| You're looking at it all wrong.
It doesn't matter if it's your modem. Your modem is on their network. As long as you are using bandwidth on their network, then you are subject to their speed restrictions. How about if you had a 100Mb pipe and I put my own router into my house and plugged into your network. I then used as much of the 100Mb pipe as I could even though you are paying for the pipe. You wouldn't like that would you? You bought the modem, which means you are responsible for the hardware, not for how much bandwidth you use on someone else's network.
ARSE! | |
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rchandra
Stargate S G-1 And Atlantis Fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
clubs:
| Look: it boils down to this. You are free to do whatever you want with your hardware, and the cableco is free to do whatever they want with their hardware. On the cableco's part, this would include denying you service and possible pressing criminal charges akin to vandalism for damaging, if not the physical network, the operation of their network. I would find it really surprising if you're connected to a provider that doesn't have a clause in their AUP/ToS that states this sort of thing. Most of them also ask you to ACK that the AUP/ToS is a legally binding contract between the provider and you, and that if you don't agree to them, you must disconnect and not use those services.
I don't know where people like you come up with all this stuff about "I can do whatever I want" without consequences.
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English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules. Blog is here | |
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