sharksfan3
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Poughkeepsie, NY | reply to FreeBSDNut
Re: If it's my hardware........
At the fed level you might be ok... but not the state. |
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FreeBSDNut
@pacbell.n
|  reply to N3OGH
Because the FCC recently declared that cable modem service is *NOT* a telecommunications service, so telecom laws do not apply. DSL was declared a telecommunications service even though it does the same thing, and is subject to regulation, and telecom law. |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9
| reply to medici
said by medici  :
But when it comes to stuff like firewall protection, junk email filtering, virus protection, traffic shaping, and just good old customer education and support, that's too expensive (even though there are plenty of free or low-cost tools to address most of these categories).
I really don't want my ISP to do this stuff. This is something that I want full control of. You have to keep in mind that security comes at the expense of functionality. It would be nice to have it maybe as an option, but based on past events, they are more likely to just force it on everyone. |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
| reply to medici
said by medici :
IANAL, and I don't think you are, either. A contract is a legally binding document. Once you've agreed to the terms of service and accepted the contract, you are liable for any breaches of those terms. Straightforward contract law.
Signing up with an ISP is not a contract agreement in the way two corporations sign a contract to do business with each other. I have yet to see the TOS of a cable ISP state that they will sue you or you could be arrested if you hack your modem. No, the worse they can do is cancel your service and maybe charge you some kind of cancellation fee, -if- it's in their TOS.
said by medici :
If the cable company wants to make an example of you, they can sue for theft of service, disruption of business, their costs to investigate and mitigate your unauthorized use, legal fees and punitive damages.
In a case like that, the TOS would most likely work against the ISP. The "theft of service" charge would be hard for the ISP to make stick, since the courts have previously said that it's difficult to quantify just how much "service" was stolen.
said by medici :
Also, AFAIK, there is no requirement of specific legislative protection in order to prosecute theft of service.
I do believe there is, especially with cable. Modem hacking is a simple TOS violation, nothing more.
said by medici :
What I find is interesting is that ISP's seem to have plenty of money to spend on capping customer's bandwidth, detecting modem hackers, tracking bandwidth utilization and penalizing so-called bandwidth hogs. But when it comes to stuff like firewall protection, junk email filtering, virus protection, traffic shaping, and just good old customer education and support, that's too expensive (even though there are plenty of free or low-cost tools to address most of these categories).
They certainly aren't spending that money on upgrading their networks if they feel the need to crack down on "bandwidth hogs". |
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xpkranger
RIP Georgia Theater
Premium
join:2000-10-27
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| reply to medici
Where is the the line though between civil and criminal? If I go and take the filters off the line that at eye level on the side of my house and allow HBO, Cinemax, et al in to my house they're sure going to try have me prosecuted for criminal theft of services. And if there's a lawyer in the bunch out there, where does the DMCA fall into all of this? I thought it might have something to say about it. Also, does the law vary from state to state or is it Federal because of the ICC?
--
When I die, I want to die like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car.-Author Unknown |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
 ·Verizon FIOS
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to DadeMurphy
By PA law it is. The statute specifically states "Internet access" in the definition of telecommunications, as noted in the text of my previous post.
If the statute specifically states "internet access" , how then, is Comcast High speed INTERNET not telecommunications?
Just askin'' |
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medici
join:2001-02-22
Shohola, PA | reply to DadeMurphy
It is in PA. And it might be subject to interpretation elsewhere if you use VoIP. |
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medici
join:2001-02-22
Shohola, PA
| reply to JakCrow
IANAL, and I don't think you are, either. A contract is a legally binding document. Once you've agreed to the terms of service and accepted the contract, you are liable for any breaches of those terms. Straightforward contract law. If the cable company wants to make an example of you, they can sue for theft of service, disruption of business, their costs to investigate and mitigate your unauthorized use, legal fees and punitive damages.
Also, AFAIK, there is no requirement of specific legislative protection in order to prosecute theft of service.
What I find is interesting is that ISP's seem to have plenty of money to spend on capping customer's bandwidth, detecting modem hackers, tracking bandwidth utilization and penalizing so-called bandwidth hogs. But when it comes to stuff like firewall protection, junk email filtering, virus protection, traffic shaping, and just good old customer education and support, that's too expensive (even though there are plenty of free or low-cost tools to address most of these categories). |
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Rexter
YeeHaw
join:2002-11-17
cloud 9 | reply to pit_viper
I agree, but they would have to prove damages. |
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DadeMurphy
Rbettenc
Premium
join:2002-07-25
Danvers, MA
clubs: | reply to N3OGH
Cable HSI is not considered telecommunications. |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to JakCrow
Perhaps not in California, but in PA, one could argue that Pa. C.S. sec 910 Manufacture, distribution, use or possession of devices for theft of telecommunications systems might. The statute states that:
"Any person commits an offense if... for commission of theft of a telecommunications service or to disrupt,transmit, decrypt, yadda yadday yadda.... or acquisition of any telecommunications service without the consent of the telecommunications service provider."
The statute does specifically mention the modification of devices connected to a telecommunications network, and does not differentiate based on the ownership of the device. The statute also specifically states that the definition of a Telecommunications service is " any service provided by any radio,telephone,cable television, satellite,microwave, or wireless distribution system, including, but not limited to, any and all electronic, data,video, audio, Internet access, telephonic, microwave and radio communications, transmissions, signals and services.
First offense is a misdemeanor first degree, second offense is a felony.
How long do you think it is before Comcast goes after people for uncapping their modems. All they have to do is give the evidence to the local PD and shazamm, your name too, can be on the top of a criminal complaint.
Since I have no desire to be the test case, I will NOT be uncapping my modem. I don't have a legal plan that robust.
Besides, the "It's my hardware" argument is an illogical one, considering your cell phone is your hardware, you're not allowed to tinker with it, your cable box could be your hardware, you can't tinker with it to get free spice channel. Your CAR is your own hardware, but drive it on the road with no plates and no insurance, and expect to get a ticket....
Once again, just my 2 cents |
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pit_viper
1 Shot, 1 Kill, No Remorse, I Decide
join:2002-07-24
Play_Hockey
| reply to JakCrow
said by JakCrow :
There are no grounds for legal action over cable modem hacking.
No but a company can take civil action....
--
"Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded" |
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xpkranger
RIP Georgia Theater
Premium
join:2000-10-27
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to JakCrow
Perhaps you're right, but I wouldn't want to be the one to test it out, at least not against the lawyers I work for. Besides, I've got 3000K already. (wish I had better upstream though - too bad I can't give back .5 for upstream) Even if it doesn't violate the letter of the agreement, I think that it does violate the spirit. Either way, I'm definitely not going to be the first one to cast a stone. (Graveyards in my closets and all...) Good luck!
--
When I die, I want to die like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car.-Author Unknown |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
| reply to xpkranger
An EULA is only a "contract" between parties. Worse they could do is terminate someone's service and -maybe- bill them something extra. Some cable companies have tried to get people charged with "theft of service" crimes, but since cable internet isn't regulated, theft of service laws don't apply. |
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xpkranger
RIP Georgia Theater
Premium
join:2000-10-27
Atlanta, GA
clubs:
·Comcast
| reply to JakCrow
said by JakCrow :
There are no grounds for legal action over cable modem hacking.
Isn't there something in the EULA or service agreement that a would say different?
--
When I die, I want to die like my grandmother, who died peacefully in her sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in her car.-Author Unknown |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | reply to pit_viper
There are no grounds for legal action over cable modem hacking. |
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