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Lex Luthor
Premium,Mod
join:2000-09-17
Hicksville, NY

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Capping Discussion Here Only - Part 5

Capping Discussion Here Only - Part 4
The other one was getting too long, so here's a new thread.

I've created this thread and made it sticky so it always stays on top.

ALL cap discussions from here on out will be contained in this one thread.

If you want to know why you were capped, here.
If you want to know how to not get capped, here.
If you want to complain about OOL and how horrible they are, here.
If you want to defend the caps, here.

If you want to discuss this new policy, not here. Send me an IM and I'll be happy to discuss it.

I promise you I am not trying to stifle discussion of the subject (I think that's pretty clear from my actions to date). I am just trying to restore sanity to this forum by keeping this all in one place, so it doesn't overtake everything else.

Please post everything related to the new OOL capping procedure in this thread.

Thank you.
Lex


drake
drizzy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-06-10
Brooklyn, NY
·Optimum Online


1 edit
Previous Capping Discussions posted below(Recent Ones First):

»Capping Discussion Here Only - Part 4
»Capping Discussion Here Only - Part 3
»Capping Discussion Here Only - Part 2
»Capping Discussion Here Only
--
[OOL/CVC 8.4Mbps/950kbps CABLE $29.95 & Road Runner CABLE 3.03Mbps/369kbps Coax $44.95]::: Surf on Coaxial Cable! :::

trancey

join:2004-02-17
Bronx, NY

reply to Lex Luthor
I see the problem with using too much bandwidth, if the current infrastructure falls below acceptable service levels. Then capping is ok. I do think CV should try to make a leap forward to resolve this problem in a non secretive and fair matter. For example maybe OOL should develop a small status toll that would indicate node usage also your usage, and on top of that provide you with an automated feed back system alerting you that your modem is within acceptable usage out outside of that limit. See this would help create a toll where Customers can see their nodes status and their relation to that nodes status. Informing the user if constantly changing guidelines. That way the user can change their machine behavior BEFORE they get capped. Another advantage of such a thing is that it will provide a community of users where users can petition to split nodes if quality is that cad or capping occurs to often.

A non interactive toll like this would be very easy to make and implement.
Functions of the tool:
1) Report how many users are on the given node
2) Report node usage
3) Report the usage by the user
4) Report what are acceptable limits at the present time to the user.

A more advanced form of the tool would allow the user to do several other things:
5) Throttle their own bandwidth to stay withing a user specified guideline they determined them selves, based on the number reported by the system. Example the tool reports that your node at this time has broadcasted a guideline of 80kb/sec upload the user can tell the tool I want my machine to stay 15% bellow the advertised guideline. Every time the system advertises a new guideline the tool will compensate by staying a certain percentage bellow the broadcasted guideline. Furthermore the tool can be directed at certain application. By this i mean if you run p2p programs the toll can for the programs to obey it's rules. If you have to do an upload via FTP or whatever other upload client you use you can tell the tool to ignore that program and allow it to use full speed. Or you can set some limits that are higher for some programs.

The whole point of the tool is to have automation kick in and be informed the tool will allow the user to automate and regulate their usage, and be informed if they are capped or getting close or behaving properly.

I just hope Cable vision is not pulling a verizon on it's users. By that I mean trying to get all the customers within their possible reach without having the infrastructure to support fair user and their advertised claims. Lets say a node can support 500 users at it's full capacity, but CV doesn't want to spend money and doubles that figure since they don't have the infrastructure, yet they want customers paying full price.

I don't have a real big issue with CV only the price hikes..lol. Everything I said is open for discussion agreement or disagreement. All comments welcomed, conversation is the first step in the resolution of a problem. Kudos all

By the way GOOD JOG moderating LEX LUTHOR.


Tha ReAlEsT
The King Is Back, Where My Crown At?
Premium
join:2002-09-28
the past
reply to Lex Luthor
On the 5th topic, and still not a person (i should say customer)knows how Cv determine if one is abusing there upload


avd706
insert annoying animated gif here
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Union, NJ
reply to Lex Luthor
ok I have a topic for discussion,

in the technical and legal terms,

how is using a client software that uploads considered a "server"?


GeekNJ
Premium
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ


1 edit
said by avd706 See Profile:
ok I have a topic for discussion,

in the technical and legal terms,

how is using a client software that uploads considered a "server"?

A server is program/server where other machines connect to and make requests. As an example, your FTP client (WS_FTP, CuteFTP, a DOS Command Prompt, etc) initiates an FTP upload to an FTP server. An FTP server doesn't initiate requests but it accepts requests from FTP clients.

A P2P program that is sharing accepts requests from other P2P clients - it's acting as a server and sending data based on requests of other clients.
--
Tweaked your OOL connection? | Mail Parse | Speed Converter


BigRay5264

join:2004-03-14
Hasbrouck Heights, NJ
reply to Lex Luthor
Hey...new here,so forgive my ignorance...so from what I'm hearing...P2P is abusing the TOS?


GeekNJ
Premium
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ

said by BigRay5264 See Profile:
Hey...new here,so forgive my ignorance...so from what I'm hearing...P2P is abusing the TOS?
Running a server is "officially" against the TOS and if you run P2P allow others to pull files from you, then yes, you're technically going against the TOS. If you go more along the lines of what is considered "in good faith", then allow others to pull from you but limit the bandwidth.
--
Tweaked your OOL connection? | Mail Parse | Speed Converter

TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-04
Yonkers, NY

reply to GeekNJ
said by GeekNJ See Profile:
said by avd706 See Profile:
ok I have a topic for discussion,

in the technical and legal terms,

how is using a client software that uploads considered a "server"?

A server is program/server where other machines connect to and make requests.

Certainly if you limit it to only the client-server definition of server but OOL never does.

Look at a List-Server like Yahoo, when you send an E-mail to a Yahoo list, it then initiates a connection and sends Mail to many users who have not made a request. It is still acting as a Server. OOL execs have made it clear in the past that they would not give a specific definition of "Server". As I've said before a synonym for serve is distribute, if you are distributing a large number of files or data, it can be considered to be running a server because your machine providing the primary function of a server.
--
Dog and Butterfly


LLivingLarge
Better Than You
Premium
join:2003-12-03
Roslyn, NY
reply to Lex Luthor
OOL told me that I couldn't send pictures to my friends...

But seriously, I thought there was a 3 strike rule before termination of service. I'm on like, warning 5. I've been throttled an unthrottled at least 10 times. (Currently unthrottled)

trancey

join:2004-02-17
Bronx, NY

reply to GeekNJ
So by your definition AIM, ICQ, VNC, IRC, on line games like starcraft(my favorite), and several other program's that are commonly used would be considerd servers. I think there should be a court hearing versus some one against someone else to set a presented. Lets say the users of the internet VS. ISP's to define what constitutes a server and what does not. So that both parties will have a clear definition of what it is and what it does.

Some possible out comes(and what i think classifies a server)
1) A server has a specific purpose and structure.
2) A server shares specific information and data.
3) A server generates some form of profit.
4) A server (guys make it up as you go along...lol)

Again what i input is open to interpretation and argument. Which are always gladly welcomed.

trancey

join:2004-02-17
Bronx, NY

reply to LLivingLarge
llivinglarge

Why would optimum on-line do that. They would rather throttle you for a while to make you a "non-threat" to the network for a while. Than to give up those 49.95 you give them every month for the service you get cheated on. Again like many have said your not paying for bandwidth your paying for a connection to a theoreticly fast system. I also doubt that thy will go out of their way and split a node because 20 users on a 500 user node are using more than normal bandwidth. Im not arguing for them, ut looking at it from their point of view it doesn't make financial sense to allow you to dictate how many users they can cram into a node. It is very profitable for them to cram 1000 users on a node imagine that.... give up your 49.95 a month...nah they will just cripple you..and let you keep paying.....money makes the go round... It also lets you violate the TOS on a repeated basis.


Andre152
Your Going To Clean And Make Some Toco's

join:2002-06-21
Brooklyn, NY

reply to Lex Luthor
zero00
anonymous
dyn.optonline.net

Topic
What Optimum Online Don't Tell You!

I have had Optimum Online for about a week. After speaking to numerous sales representatives about the upload speed I knew everything they had told me was too good to be true. The speed dramatically decreased from 116k to 15k max which I realized while sending a file to a friend. I called the company and they explained to me that there was a limit as to how much I could upload but were unable to tell me what that "limit" was. How am I suppose to know? They continuously asked me about having a "server" and I assured them that I did not but that I do have a ftp setup so few of my friends can obtain files from it. They told me that what I could do is burn my data on a cd and send it via mail and I responded "so what am I paying for"? After that conversation, they restored my upload speed but advised me to wait a few hours between files sendings and to make sure it was under an hour uploading. They also told me that my account would be forwarded to a security department for "suspicions" if I was capped too many times. I asked for proof of this upload speed limit and he directed me to the service page and paragraph in the contract which stated the info he gave me quite unclearly and in different words. At this very moment, I am still uncertain about the "limit" means. When I did this agreement, nothing of this was mentioned, instead, when I asked about having unlimited upload as long as I wanted regardless of the size or amount of files, they assured me that I would. Now there you go folks, they DO CAP you. They let you enjoy it for three days and BOOM it drops like hell. So it seems to me that we are paying to just see our upload speed only in test pages to brag about it with your friends. Just try not to use it. I know about the limits now and i don't want to hear anyone telling me legal crap or it was there in the site crap , my point is they do not let you know all this at first and if you are paying for something why can't you use it as you please. (no wonder they are going bankrupt). Glad I'm on the 30 days trial and I get to know all this so I can cancel on time as few other friends I recommended it to will cancel it also. What's the point of paying for all this when I can't even host an online game for longer than 1 hour without being capped.

This is what i have to say...
This is very true... i upload like hell! haven't got capped yet... but still that's bull what they have done to this man or woman. OOL shame on you! 50 bucks a month isn't cheap. if they have a problem with the upload WTF then they just cap everyone's!!! its not rite he or she pays full credit and have less speed. Its just unfair, and OOL needs to see that. if the upload is such a problem there broke asses need to make more networks and maintain there nodes. nuff said. and quite frankly seeing how uploads are, OOL should lower the 999 upload and bring it down if its a problem and with that bandwidth reduction i should see a reduction in the mo fo price! and if a reduction don't come in place OOL could blow my whistle.


Irish Shark
Play Like A Champion Today
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-29
Las Vegas, NV
WOW! He figured it out. ANDRE. No 512 for you.


drake
drizzy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-06-10
Brooklyn, NY
·Optimum Online

reply to Andre152
Irish Shark See Profile brought up a good statement here -- »Re: nice thing to know

Why should you make the whole area suffer with your upload speed? It stops people from running servers, etc. How would you like it if someone was sucking up the neighborhood bandwidth? Then you would be pissed(I know I would), If you don't like it, Switch to DSL Service.
--
[OOL/CVC 8.4Mbps/950kbps CABLE $29.95 & Road Runner CABLE 3.03Mbps/369kbps Coax $44.95]::: Surf on Coaxial Cable! :::

Cobras33
Premium
join:2003-02-05
NJ
clubs:

1 edit
reply to Lex Luthor
Hey, imagine the rants we would see from Dre if he had Comcast HSI and with their policy of dropping customers for excessive downloading.

TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-04
Yonkers, NY

reply to Andre152
I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing since the capping has gone on for well over a year and we've had four other long threads on this. For those of you who want TO actually understand why OOL is capping I'm going to include a lot of links and information.

DOCSIS 1.0 calls for 2 upstream standards 16QAM and QPSK. Most cable companies use QPSK because it is less sensitive to noise problems on the upstream then 16QAM (for practical purposes 16 QAM is probably not possible with DOCSIS 1.0). 16QAM is 10mbps Upstream, QPSK is 5mbps upstream per channel. The amount of noise is very sensitive to the size of the area covered by the node. Most Cable providers including OOL use QPSK but it was mentioned that at some point OOL may move to 16QAM.

Most nodes pass 400-500 people and with a 30% subscription rate that means that OOL will have about 120-150 or so users per Upstream channel. The upstream channel is 5 mbps so if several people on the channel are constantly sending at 1mbps, you are going to run into intermittent lag which will effect all the gamer's on the channel. When you upload at 1mbps you use 20% of the Upstream channel capacity. The Upstream was designed to be used for short bursts. Because of the many to one relationship of the modems to the CMTS the Upstream is more difficult to effectively manage then the downstream.

The Upstream performance has a significant effect on the performance of the whole network. A slowdown on the Upstream will cause gamer's to have lag, and some slowdown in other user's downloads since ACKs must get out to allow the Download to continue. Saturation of the upstream, which can be done by 5 users, causes packet loss, and a Slowdown in Downloads to 1mbps or below, and surfing to slow to a crawl.

Most other cable providers have Upstream caps of 256kbps while most DSL providers have a Upstream cap of 128kbps. If you send 15 files of 15MB via E-mail with overhead this is the equivalent of about 300MB which would take 1.5 hours at 256kbps and 3 hours at 128kbps. Yet even some of the providers with lower caps have had problems and instituted limits.

»www.cox.com/INETIncludes/policy/···ions.asp

COX
Preferred Package

Feature Maximum Limit
1. Maximum downstream speed 3 megabits per second
2. Maximum upstream speed 256 kilobits per second
3. Maximum monthly consumption cap 30 gigabytes downstream; 7.5 gigabytes upstream
4. Size per email message 5 megabytes
5. Size per email account/address 10 megabytes
6. Personal WebSpace account size 10 megabytes of disk space per email address
7. Personal WebSpace traffic 300 megabytes of traffic per month (for visitors viewi
*ng your pages)

(*) WARNING 1 long line(s) split

There were many problems caused by heavy upstream bandwidth use reported in this forum by gamers and other users in the several years I have read and posted here before capping occured. Many of users predicted and wanted action taken by OOL to keep the network from suffering due to a small number of users. A $50 connection was never designed for one user to be using 1 mbps on a constant basis, again the 1mbps cap was designed for short bursts. Expanding for High Bandwidth users is very expensive and OOL would lose money providing them service. There is a lot of evidence that a small number of users cause congestion problems.

»www.cabledatacomnews.com/oct02/oct02-2.html

said by Cable Datacom news:

Among the handful of biggest MSOs, only Time Warner stands out in its near-term resistance to the idea of service tiers and bandwidth consumption charges. "It's not an active topic right now," said a Time Warner spokesperson, arguing that consumption billing particularly doesn't make any business sense to the company. "[The problem is] very sporadic and erratic. It's not common."

But even Time Warner acknowledges that heavy bandwidth use by a low number of subscribers can be a real hassle. Several months ago in Texas, the spokesperson said, the company "had to throttle down" bandwidth for several very active nodes because of traffic backups those users were creating for the entire broadband network. "We'll limit the ability of anybody doing massive uploads,"

»www.cedmagazine.com/ced/2002/1002/10c.htm

said by CED Mag:
Currently, most broadband customers access the Internet over "untiered" systems, with no limits on data transfers. Even on these systems, the uber users are the exception, not the rule. Nine out of 10 people who subscribe to broadband Internet services consume less than 20 GB per month, which works out to just over half of the total amount of bandwidth used in an average month. A little over half of the subscribers to cable modem service download less than 2 GB per month, or about 5 percent of total monthly consumption.
»www.businessweek.com/technology/···1108.htm

said by Business Week:
RUNNING FOR COVER. The cable companies' adoption of new pricing strategies has less to do with stopping piracy than with economics and business models. At an average monthly cost of $45, broadband is still perceived as too expensive by many consumers, and in recent months, prices have been rising, rather than dropping. That's slowing subscriber growth. According to market-research firm ARS, the rate of new signups for broadband in the first quarter of 2002 slid to 12%, the worst quarter on record.

Disappointing demand has left cable operators scrambling to cover the $60 billion they spent building and upgrading their networks over the past decade. At the same time, they've tired of seeing a small group of heavy users tax their networks while paying the same flat rate as everybody else. AT&T Broadband says on its system, 1% percent of users account for 16% of bandwidth consumption.
»www.yankeegroup.com/public/produ···?ID=9201

said by Yankee Group:
The single service model allowed “bandwidth hogs” to exploit network capacity with no additional cost. For example, Time Warner Cable recognized that 5 percent of its customers were using 95 percent of its network capacity.
--
Dog and Butterfly


zero00

@optonline.net

reply to drake
Read more careful next time because the whole point was OOL didn't mention anything of this never and if they explain that clearly to a lot of people we wouldn't be complaining about it. thats all
I'm glad you are happy with your cable or what you are paying for, which is probably just a fast upload to look at it only in websites speed test and nothing more.


JE
Can I Taste It? Mmmm
Premium
join:2000-12-15
Brooklyn, NY


2 edits
 reply to TheWiseGuy
Thanks for that post. Was refreshnig reading something interesting here.

NOw we all know if we were still on dialup, we would not be having this conversation. I belive the term UNLIMITED has proven to be a liar and a cheater against ALL Cable ISP's, in the USA.
I remeber when the cappings started on OOL, and I have the same stance now as I had then...

Don't abuse your connection, you won't get capped. Not to say not to use "SERVERS" because we ALL abuse the TOS as it relates to the use of "SERVERS", and CV doesn't really care, it's just a CYA type of thing.
But when a user actually sits there and wants to see how far he can go, then, they'll STOP him dead in his tracks.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Example,
My friend ran his own Internet station off of OOL's connection, receiving about 20 or so listeners daily, and faster than you could say BAM, they shut that mofo down (Capped him), so he went and bought a server from a Company to broadcast to.
That was a year ago, and he is still uncapped and broadcasting at 128kbs and 56k (switches between both), and his station runs 24/7-365!
When I came to OOL in December, I had my popular station, Urban Hitz Radio running, but not DIRECTLY off of OOL's connection. I would broadcast to a server, and my station would run 24/7, until I decided I had enuf of 4.5 years of streaming.
I never got capped on OOL and I used to broadcast at 96k and 24k(2 streams).
-----------------------------------------------------------

As someone said earlier, they get the rape you on fees, and you get to continually abuse the service, until they stop you for a while(CAP), and let you back in, FULLY!

Now if you really wanna be CAPPED AND SHUT DOWN, look at our COMCAST brothers and sisters. Go there, and they will show you just what capping and deception is all about.

We may not like the tactics by CV, but we have it good on this side of the river.

JE;)
--
BLAZIN' FAST OOL @: 9400/971... OH YEAH BABY! Can Your ISP Go This FAST? VRoOoOoOoOm!



mrchris
We don't miss you Bush
Premium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY
·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online


1 edit
reply to Andre152
I've hosted online games via listen and dedicated server before for 2-3 hours at most for HL when I still played it, I had no problems at all. It probably has to do with the amount of outbound data or something. I never bothered trying it with Quake3 games cause they probably use more output.

Why don't the CV engineers double the number of upload thingies (from 5 to 10) on the nodes Engineer88 talked about before?
--
Firefox
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