 
Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
02101
edit:
January 15th, @09:09AM
| Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" Net Neutrality refers to ISPs double dipping on charging/extorting fees for both users paying for their connections and web sites paying for prioritization of traffic according to origination and destination. It does not refer to protocol-based QoS. It does not mean a flat, unmanaged, unQoS-ed Internet. By repeatedly and deliberately misusing this phrase, its importance is being weakened.
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Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru? | |
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
 ·Cox HSI
 ·AT&T Southeast
 ·magicjack.com
·Skype
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" said by Cabal  :Net Neutrality refers to ISPs double dipping on charging/extorting fees for both users paying for their connections and web sites paying for prioritization of traffic according to origination and destination. It does not refer to protocol-based QoS. It does not mean a flat, unmanaged, unQoS-ed Internet. By repeatedly and deliberately misusing this phrase, its importance is being weakened. I agree. Bittorent has a bad reputation as a bandwidth hog and illegal downloads. Instead, buy your music, buy your porn, and buy your movies. Would you really need Bittorent if you did that? Nope.
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl | |
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school
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" You bet.
I end up using BitTorrent on colocated servers which I operate to update the virtual machines installs of CentOS.
The only quick way to download a CentOS DVD is via BT. The other providers would take hours / days for a download. With BT, I can max out my servers 100 MBPS line while performing the download.
There, a legit purpose for the usage of BT. Anything else supergirl? | |
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| | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" Well.. since this only affects Comcast users UPLOADING on the network and not your ability to download on the comcast network from legit sources, as your data center, then you should have nothing to complain about today, huh?
Bit-torrent on the upload on a residential "no server policy" is not welcome according to the TOS everyone agrees too.. I see this as a moot point and a waste of time.. as I'm sure Comcast is as well. Any more non-news today? | |
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funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast
edit:
January 16th, @03:03AM
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" said by fiberguy :Bit-torrent on the upload on a residential "no server policy" is not welcome according to the TOS everyone agrees too.. I see this as a moot point and a waste of time.. as I'm sure Comcast is as well. Any more non-news today? Once ...
... Again
P2P applications are nodes. Nodes are members of a Peer-to-Peer architecture.
Servers are members of a Client-Server architecture. This is pretty basic stuff. Only the people that drink the weak cool-aid cannot understand it.
AND FINALLY, Comcast itself has said that BitTorrent is welcome on their network.
Who is wasting whose time with this old misinformation?
PS: eDonkey does have a server that assists with searching and providing location services for firewalled nodes. That is a true server. A BitTorrent website (a server) provides half of that functionality for BitTorrent, and a BitTorrent tracker (also a server) provides the other half. In these three cases, these are truly servers. But the regular user just being part of a P2P network (be it file sharing, telephony, distributed computing, or whatever) is not a server.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report. | |
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| | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" : sigh :
.. I don't care WHAT you call it.. if you have a piece of software running on a machine that is serving a file to the request of another client and it's doing so on it's own, it's a server.
If it walks like a duck...
I do give you credit for your very creative ways of spinning things to meet your needs and to fit your views. The problem is, you are still wrong.
In the end, it doesn't matter how YOU want to see and describe something, it's what you agreed to, and what you are saying in your posts ... well... what ever floats your boat. Sorry life is so rough for you. | |
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funchords
Robb
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Hillsboro, OR
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype
·Comcast
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" said by fiberguy :: sigh : .. I don't care WHAT you call it.. if you have a piece of software running on a machine that is serving a file to the request of another client and it's doing so on it's own, it's a server. So despite all of my examples, both from accepted and authoritative Engineering sources, historical references, and Comcast's own statements regarding P2P on their network -- I'm wrong simply because you say so.
Whatever.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon USA
Are you affected by Comcast's RST forging? How to test it! -or- Read my original report. | |
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| | | | | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" No.. what you're doing is spinning and mis-applying terms to best suit your needs. That's why you are wrong.
Ever heard of context? You said node... you know that a node means different things based on it's application.. so please.. be like Avis and Try Harder. | |
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gaforces
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA
·Cruzio Internet
edit:
January 15th, @12:07PM
| said by supergirl :said by Cabal :Net Neutrality refers to ISPs double dipping on charging/extorting fees for both users paying for their connections and web sites paying for prioritization of traffic according to origination and destination. It does not refer to protocol-based QoS. It does not mean a flat, unmanaged, unQoS-ed Internet. By repeatedly and deliberately misusing this phrase, its importance is being weakened. I agree. Bittorent has a bad reputation as a bandwidth hog and illegal downloads. Instead, buy your music, buy your porn, and buy your movies. Would you really need Bittorent if you did that? Nope. Bit torrent went legit several years ago, with legal downloads and many many licensed corporate customers.
The start-ups using the technology are able to profit from advertising and selling products and services, and not greedy triple and double dipping into our wallets like some company's ...
I buy my media and get some for watching advertising, and yes, I need bit torrent.
Just because we have a government that permits this network abuse/blocking ATM, doesn't mean it will last ...
Using a loophole to patch up faults in a network architecture, or instead of expanding infrastructure is IMO fraudulent to those networks customers and contrary to the whole reason we have network neutrality. They are using it to prop up their business artificially. I consider a network architecture faulty if 2 persons could degrade the connections of thousands ... also if everyone else in the country/world is able to have far more capability's without resorting to this chicanery or half-hearted attempts at upgrade.
I bet as soon as the merger conditions (2 years agreed to follow network neutrality) are met, or comcast wins this, ATT will also be doing this to prop up their failing antient copper. Filtering and blocking/forging packets are just more numbers for the bean counters, it artificially inflates the amount of traffic of customers they can transport.
History 1860
“ ...messages received from any individual, company, or corporation, or from any telegraph lines connecting with this line at either of its termini, shall be impartially transmitted in the order of their reception, excepting that the dispatches of the government shall have priority. ”
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_ne···#History
--
‘Do ye, quieting in your bosoms your strong hearts,
Who of many good things have had your fill even to surfeit,
With what is moderate nourish your mighty desire; for neither will
We yield, nor shall you have all else as you wish.’
Solon | |
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| | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| said by supergirl :I agree. Bittorent has a bad reputation as a bandwidth hog and illegal downloads. Instead, buy your music, buy your porn, and buy your movies. Would you really need Bittorent if you did that? Nope. awesome! I didn't know we had a user on the forum that is qualified to tell us which applications are OK and which are "bad". I really hate wondering if some application I am using is "bad" or "good" - I don't want to be using something if it's "bad".
just as a side note, you might want to know the MPAA has been known to use BT to distribute files; you should let them know they are using "bad" software. | |
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southeast
·magicjack.com
·Skype
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" said by nasadude :said by supergirl :I agree. Bittorent has a bad reputation as a bandwidth hog and illegal downloads. Instead, buy your music, buy your porn, and buy your movies. Would you really need Bittorent if you did that? Nope. awesome! I didn't know we had a user on the forum that is qualified to tell us which applications are OK and which are "bad". I really hate wondering if some application I am using is "bad" or "good" - I don't want to be using something if it's "bad". just as a side note, you might want to know the MPAA has been known to use BT to distribute files; you should let them know they are using "bad" software. Bittorent has a "bad reputation" I typed. I've read that here and other places. I've looked at torrents--never found a legal file. It might be getting better but still has the stigma of illegal downloading/sharing all over it.
As far as CentOS, don't see any Bittorent download links there. »www.redhat.com/f/pdf/corp/trademark1.pdf
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl | |
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| | | | | espaeth
Misanthrope
Premium
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·Comcast
·Embarq
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" said by dot_null :Should we block (excuse me, delay) all port 80 traffic just because there are a few sites out there which serve up pirated content via HTTP? No, that would be absurd! The same premise applies with BitTorrent. I don't agree with blocking BitTorrent per-say, but that argument isn't really valid. If you were to apply the 80/20 rule to http and BitTorrent traffic, the 80% in http would be legal. I don't think anyone is foolish enough to make the same argument for BitTorrent. | |
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dot_null
Premium
join:2004-06-28
Kennesaw, GA
·VoiceStick
·AT&T Southeast
·Comcast
edit:
January 16th, @01:14AM
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" said by espaeth :I don't agree with blocking BitTorrent per-say, but that argument isn't really valid. If you were to apply the 80/20 rule to http and BitTorrent traffic, the 80% in http would be legal. I don't think anyone is foolish enough to make the same argument for BitTorrent. I am not making the argument that the majority of content transferred via the BitTorrent protocol is legitimate. My point is that infringing content could just as easily be transferred via SMTP/FTP/SFTP/HTTP as it could be over BitTorrent. You could just as easily set up a FTP server to transfer pirated content as you could a BitTorrent tracker.
At the end of the day it's still another protocol, just like SFTP, FTP, HTTP, etc. Just another tool (protocol, in this case) that can be used for good or bad. Like a knife, for example. A knife could be used to make a sandwich or to kill someone. BitTorrent is quite similar in that respect, it can be used to distribute legal content or pirated content.
Much the same way we don't prevent the sale of knives on the off chance they may be used to murder someone, Comcast shouldn't impede BitTorrent traffic just because the potential exists for copyrighted material to be transferred.
That's all I'm saying. In my opinion, Comcast should just provide a dumb pipe and that's it. No deep packet inspection, no blocking, no purposeful delaying of traffic. Just a basic connection to the world. Nothing more, nothing less. | |
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL | Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" Gee, you can watch all the pron you want a YouPron. | |
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| | | | jwalker1196
join:2007-10-02
Houston, TX
edit:
January 15th, @07:38PM
| quote:
I've looked at torrents--never found a legal file.
WTF?
OpenOffice.org and a whole load of open-source software is distributed via torrents because it is an efficient use of bandwidth! BitTorrent is a brilliant way of taking the load off of servers which need to disseminate alot of content quickly but don't always have the resources for that kind of bandwidth. Meanwhile we have bandwidth unused. It's a great idea. Just because alot of ppl do illegal things with a technology does not make the technology bad. Where do you stand on gun control, I wonder? Are you one of the "if guns didn't exist we wouldn't have crime" people?
My corporation uses torrents to distribute software updates to all our workers, and we all get the updates the same day using bandwidth much more efficiently than if it came off a server.
Hell, even the RIAA and MPAA "leaks" things as part of viral marketing campaigns. Saying legal torrents can't be found is nuts. | |
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Transmaster
Onward Through The Fog
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
| = supergirl ] Would you really need Bittorent if you did that? Nope.
I use bit-torrent in order to watch Documentary programing from England, most notably Time Team which is unavailable in any form Stateside. In fact Channel4 which airs Time Team refers people bit-torrent sites to view programs they have missed the site I use is very careful to pull any such program when it becomes available on DVD.
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Eat pork chops for Allah! | |
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| | | LeftOfSanity
join:2005-11-06
Felton, DE
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" said by Transmaster := supergirl ] Would you really need Bittorent if you did that? Nope. So you are telling me NASA which uses bit-torrent to disseminate some of it larger freeware app's doesn't need bit-torrent. I use bit-torrent in order to watch Documentary programing from England, most notably Time Team which is unavailable in any form Stateside. In fact Channel4 which airs Time Team refers people bit-torrent sites to view programs they have missed the site I use is very careful to pull any such program when it becomes available on DVD. So why don't they put money into upgrading their infastructure so they could stream it or just host it, rather than relying on everyone who uses bittorrent?
IMO, Bittorrent is used for legal stuff, it just makes it so anyone can bypass the costs of hosting their own stuff. They just put it on the backs of the providers. | |
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bahcomcast
@vianet.ca
| To add to this point:
Big Media control the traditional channels of distribution. You can't just put out a movie and have it stocked on the shelves. This is a Barrier to entry that the MPAA and RIAA want to keep. It keeps young independent and creative minds out of "their" space.
What comcast is doing is helping to prevent young upstarts from having access to the global consumer market and forcing them to go through traditional oligopoly channels. | |
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| | | | fiberguy
My views are my own.
Premium
join:2005-05-20
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" Want to be an upstart? Step one,... purchase bandwidth.. step two, don't think you're going to run a business on a residential service line that CLEARLY.. hear that? CLEARLY says you are not allowed to.
Seriously guys.. what is so hard to get about this? .. are we in horizon of the next generation who has the opinion that they can do what ever they want and not follow rules and agreements? Was there a generation of parents who mis-informed their kids of what's right and wrong or what?
Every day, here, all I read is where a majority of people seem to think that rules are made for someone else and not them. | |
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Craziness
@tds.net | Wow updates? ISO downloads? Other valid downloads? No, we don't need those.... | |
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CO_Chris
Premium
join:2001-08-28
Broomfield, CO
·Comcast
·Comcast Digital Vo..
edit:
January 15th, @02:45PM
| said by supergirl :said by Cabal :Net Neutrality refers to ISPs double dipping on charging/extorting fees for both users paying for their connections and web sites paying for prioritization of traffic according to origination and destination. It does not refer to protocol-based QoS. It does not mean a flat, unmanaged, unQoS-ed Internet. By repeatedly and deliberately misusing this phrase, its importance is being weakened. I agree. Bittorent has a bad reputation as a bandwidth hog and illegal downloads. Instead, buy your music, buy your porn, and buy your movies. Would you really need Bittorent if you did that? Nope. Some people use BT for LEGAL stuff like downloading shows of there favorite bands Like Dave Matthews Band and some others. who are YOU to say THIS? | |
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Bilbu
@rt-system.com
| There are also many geographical areas that restrict the flow of music, movies, software to ensure that no "cultural contamination" occurs. ie you can only listen to the music your President agrees with, you can only watch movies that the "Council for Wholesome Youth Education" thinks are good for you. BT and TOR are a way round those restrictions.
Is Supergirl saying she agrees that people should be arrested and incarcerated because they want to watch an uncensored version of a movie freely shown in the USA and in civiolized countries that they cannot get locally becausee "El Presidente" says they can't? | |
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| openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Navarre, FL
·AT&T Southeast
·Mediacom
| But that definition of net neutrality doesn't help all of the whiners that want to use their 20/2 connections full-bore, 24/7/367.
BTW, Comcast will be allowed to continue this practice of managing their network. The only thing that may change is that they may be required to actually state what they're doing and managing, but that's a long shot IMO. Honestly, I think the government and consumers would be better served by going after advertising practices of some of these ISPs rather than trying to force lack of network management down business' throats. | |
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Raptor
Not a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON
·Rogers Hi-Speed
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: Stop misusing "Net Neutrality" Advertising practices eh? Noooo, that's crazy talk. The tel/cable-cos are nothing but straightforward. Better to have a grand FCC "inquiry" into something that cannot be regulated!!! That's progress.
I always like getting my bills at the end of the month. So many surprise charges! $19.99/mo + System access fee + 911 fee + deployment retrieval fee + state/province recovery fee + enema fee + CEO's kid needs a new BMW fee. | |
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
| This is good news!
Even if the Comcast is not found breaking any rules that the FCC has set forth, then at the very least it shows the public the unethical practices Comcast preforms.
spread the word!
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Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent. | |
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andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario | Protect? " employ such technology if you're doing it to protect your network."
Protect it from what? Being used? | |
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| openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Navarre, FL | Re: Protect? From crawling on it's knees because of the huge number of connections that BT seeding can bring on. | |
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ztmike
1kwikgt
Premium
join:2001-08-02
·Comcast
·AT&T Midwest
| said by andyb :" employ such technology if you're doing it to protect your network." Protect it from what? Being used? I couldn't have said it better myself.
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"I am the worst president in U.S history, I'm either stupid or dumb most of the time, but people still believe me." George W. Bush | |
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Diaboyos
join:2007-08-21
·Comcast
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Protect? That's right. Their claim of using Sandvine for network management while they continue to roll out speed tiers of 16/1 and 16/2 is ludicrous. If they can't properly manage what they have now why in the world would they implement speed tiers twice as fast? They want to offer the speeds so they can look good but they want to prevent you from actually using it to save them money.
Instead of Sandvine that blocks even the users that don't abuse the network like the poweruser does, they need to just set a concrete cap dependent on the tier subscribed to. That would be a much more sensible and fair method of management. | |
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| | | espaeth
Misanthrope
Premium
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·Comcast
·Embarq
| Re: Protect? said by Diaboyos :That's right. Their claim of using Sandvine for network management while they continue to roll out speed tiers of 16/1 and 16/2 is ludicrous. If they can't properly manage what they have now why in the world would they implement speed tiers twice as fast? Because they have to compete with FiOS. The way broadband is priced in the US the companies don't make money by how much or how little you use the service -- they make money based on subscriber numbers. In the FiOS markets there have been many reports of Comcast upgrading their network to support the speeds to go head-to-head with Verizon as best they can. The big threat to Comcast is that Verizon has a triple play package, so it makes better financial sense for Comcast to upgrade their network to retain customers in competitive markets than lose out on HSI as well as lucrative video and phone customers. | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| The problem with implementing a cap for network management is this
Say have a 60GB cap so you go full tilt 24/7 until you're within say 10% of the cap within the first week then you do nothing but email and browsing for the next 3 weeks. During that 1 week, particularly on cable upstream, you're running the risk of saturating your cable segment (particularly if there are few others doing the same).
Caps are there to limit overall ISP transit bandwidth requirements.
Cable throttling is to ease the cable segment/node saturation problems. It makes some sense in that it eases the loads until DOCSIS 3 can be deployed. Splitting cable segments and nodes can be a exceptionally costly affair.
The major problem would seem to be the way Comcast have implemented throttling with the forged packets. Rogers (Canada) are using Cisco pcubes which apparently drop occasional packets, which causes throttling by the natural delay/retransmit mechanisms built into the IP stacks. This doesn't result in the kinds of failures reported by Comcast users.
Throttling on DSL just helps distribute the transit bandwidth requirement load. It doesn't make a great deal of sense on DSL though. Still, Bell Sympatico (Canada) have done it causing much anger, particularly because the units chosen are causing much collateral damage.
Throttling has NOTHING whatever to do (at least in Canada) with legal/illegal usage of copyright material. It *is* to do with network management on cable. Although one has to question Sympatico's use on DSL! | |
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| offspring07
join:2008-01-06
Taxis River, NB | This is exactly what I was wondering. It is like they don't want anyone doing anything on the internet except surf the web and read e-mail. Well I'm sorry if I use my internet more than the average Joe. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| said by andyb :" employ such technology if you're doing it to protect your network." Protect it from what? Being used? Protect it from all the movie and music thieves that make up the majority of P2P use.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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See 12 replies to this post |
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| Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
| the suits of the movie and music industry are just as crooked as the people downloading.
i just wish i could copy gasoline and share it over the net like music because i certainly would do it, since i know the oil industry could afford that loss.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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zachary1
you talkin' to me?
join:2004-03-07
right here | What the heck's the point of fast speeds if you can't shove it into overdrive? | |
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esc0
@swbell.net | Unbelievable Never thought I'd see this day in America. What's next? | |
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Lumberjack
Premium
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA
·Cox HSI
| Re: Unbelievable said by esc0 :
Never thought I'd see this day in America. What's next?
The end of capitalism and an erra of socialism. I mean, maybe we can do it better than the USSR and Eurpope...
Guess we all want to be poor these days.
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»www.fairtax.org | |
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MrMoody
Under the black helicopters
join:2002-09-03
Smithfield, NC | Traffic shaping The problem is not traffic shaping (i.e. QoS) which many cablecos use, the problem is forging packets and breaking connections.
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The public is a poor business manager. | |
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See 6 replies to this post |
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JasonD
@comcast.net
| Comcast is my hero..... They should degrade (or outright block) anything that gets in the way of providing customers quality service. That includes bittorrent, video, voip or anything else that degrades the user experience.
They may get another opportunity to throttle if this new apple itunes VOD service gets out of hand. | |
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See 12 replies to this post |
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JoshC1
join:2007-09-25
Sanford, NC
|  So...
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bolt
Former Broadband Exile
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Charlestown, IN | Re: So... Because then the cable co's couldn't claim the ridiculously high bandwidth possibilities on transfer speeds that no one ever actually gets. | |
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FCC Asks Comcast About Traffic Shaping
