 cpsycho
join:2008-06-03
Orangeville, ON
 ·Wightman Telecom
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
1 edit | Is the war winable? We have lost several battles so far and the hopes of winning the war seen to get further and further away. But with companies like these, that war just might be winable.
We have a huge problem ahead just sitting inside the Neo-Cons sitting in office. Bell is before the government and who knows who is in bed with who there. Bell will probably get their way with the UBB, then we know the who system is corrupt from the bottom to the top.
This is about money... Stake holders and monopolies. Lets see how many government officials are on the pay role of bell (eg. stocks or members of the board).
I would really like to see something come of this, I really would. But if the CRTC says something now, Bell is porbably gonna side step the CRTC again and go straight to the government again. | |
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insomx
Premium
join:2003-01-26
Canada
·Aliant Communicati..
| Bell is growing way too large. I know this is a tad off topic, but it is all to do with Bell's business practices.
They keep driving the small ones out of business, and keep buying the one's they can't. For example, Virgin Mobile Canada. Excellent company in everyway ...Bell just bought them (because they can't compete with them). In the East here, Bell bought Aliant (local telecom provider). Now Aliant's cell phones are through Bell, and their internet and phone will soon be assimilated into Bell.
This means in east canada we have Bell and Rogers. And that's it. Don't count Telus..they are in bed with Bell. All other cell providers are owned by either Bell or Rogers. Tv service..only Bell and Rogers. Internet...only Bell and Rogers. This is crazy! | |
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 | st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. what is almost never mentioned is that Teksavvy basically buys wholesale ADSL from Bell and adds on their own stuff (some backhaul, email/web service, authentication, etc).
for almost 10 years, any company in Canada has the right to rent bare copper lines from the ILEC(bell, telus, etc) and colocate their own dslams into central offices and thus avoid any throtting. but most companies choose to instead buy wholesale adsl from the ILEC, which is obviously subject to throttling.
(obviously this doesn't apply to VRADs/remotes and so on) | |
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adisor19
join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications
| said by st7860  :what is almost never mentioned is that Teksavvy basically buys wholesale ADSL from Bell and adds on their own stuff (some backhaul, email/web service, authentication, etc). for almost 10 years, any company in Canada has the right to rent bare copper lines from the ILEC(bell, telus, etc) and colocate their own dslams into central offices and thus avoid any throtting. but most companies choose to instead buy wholesale adsl from the ILEC, which is obviously subject to throttling. (obviously this doesn't apply to VRADs/remotes and so on) What is almost never mentioned as well is that Bell built its network, thus the company itself with huge subsidies from the Canadian government ! And where did the govermnet get the money from ? FROM US, THE CONSUMERS. So, if you wonder why the samall ISPs didn't build their own network from scratch, it's because they didn't get any subsidies from the government to do so and so obviously they went with the wholesale forced offer from Bell.
Adi | |
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| | | MIghtyCicero
join:2008-04-19
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by adisor19 : FROM US, THE CONSUMERS. We are NOT consumers. We are CITIZENS.
People have to stop reducing themselves to autonomous profit-generating-waste-producing drones. | |
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| st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
| nobody is forced to buy wholesale.
for ten years anyone has had the right to locate their own equipment in a central office and obviously avoid throttling.
of course if you rent wholesale(white label) services from someone you are subject to disruptions and conditions. | |
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adisor19
join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by st7860 :nobody is forced to buy wholesale. for ten years anyone has had the right to locate their own equipment in a central office and obviously avoid throttling. of course if you rent wholesale(white label) services from someone you are subject to disruptions and conditions. Ya ok and at what prices ?! Oh, right, at the prices that Bell dictates !! Prices that are NOT controlled by the government in any way whatsoever but rather are dictated by whoever owns the collocation office.. oh wait, that's BELL ! gee how did you miss that part ??! 2 posts already on this topic with both of them mentioning this amazing opportunity that all those small ISPs had for 10 years, yet you forget to mention that in fact it's NOT AN OPPORTUNITY AT ALL.
Adi | |
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| | | st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA | Re: Bell is growing way too large. it is an opportunity, as bare copper lines for ADSL purposes have been available in Canada for 10 years, but teksavvy choses to be cheap and instead rent white label ADSL, and is obviously subject to throttling. | |
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| | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. Bell doesn't own the airspace so why don't ISPs use that? Ever hear of MOTO Canopy? It works great! ISPs in Canada use it. It's one of the fine products that MOTO makes for their Wireless ISP customers.
These 3rd party ISPs just want to ride on someone else's network without doing anything instead of spending this money they should be out creating their own network if they wanted to stay in business.
Also things change. It's time that these companies get off their asses and start changing as well. Those 3rd Party ISPs are gonna be done for because they didn't build out and who do they have to blame? Their owners and customers like you who claim that they shouldn't have to because the CRTC protects them.
Wake up and smell the coffee you don't get shit for free anymore! | |
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adisor19
join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications
1 edit | Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by hottboiinnc :Bell doesn't own the airspace so why don't ISPs use that? Ever hear of MOTO Canopy? It works great! ISPs in Canada use it. It's one of the fine products that MOTO makes for their Wireless ISP customers. These 3rd party ISPs just want to ride on someone else's network without doing anything instead of spending this money they should be out creating their own network if they wanted to stay in business. Also things change. It's time that these companies get off their asses and start changing as well. Those 3rd Party ISPs are gonna be done for because they didn't build out and who do they have to blame? Their owners and customers like you who claim that they shouldn't have to because the CRTC protects them. Wake up and smell the coffee you don't get shit for free anymore! The "airspace" as you call it is ALL used up. Your little moto Canopy requires licensed space. Will the government give out subsidies to the little ISPs in order for them to acquire the new spectrum (IF there is any available) like they did for Bell to build their copper network ? HELL NO!
Nice try with the FUD spreading but it doesn't work unless the government treats the small ISPs like they treated Bell. Those little ISPs are not lazy, they just don't have the resources to start building their own netowkr because the government isn't giving them $$ like they gave Bell.
Or are you just using a double standard here saying it was ok for Bell to get free $$ and build their monopoly but it's not ok for the small ISPs ? I'm sure a person like you with such high integrity will not think that...... ahem
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ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
2 edits | Re: Bell is growing way too large.Moto canopy uses 2.4GHz the same frequency that your home router uses. You can't tell me that it requires a licenses.
You are rooting for your lame ass ISP because they're too cheap to build out their own network.
You need to go read the WISP board here and see how many people are from Canada and run a WISP with out a problem. You can also see that I asked a question the last time this was brought up and asked if a WISP needed licenses in Canada before they could build. The answer is NO!
This product: »www.motorola.com/Business/US-EN/···Networks uses the same technology your router uses. It also is designed to avoid any interference and only connects back to its base station.
Maybe you should learn how things work before running your mouth when you don't know anything about a product.
By the way, companies like TekSavvy have the money to start reselling Bell Landline? They have the money they can build out a wireless network. If they have the funds to sit and battle this out, they have the money to build a network.
Where does all their profit go? back into the company to expand DSL? Hardly. It goes to their pocket. They should start spending some of that money on their network and building it out and they won't have to rely on Bell..... What happens when Bell goes to the CRTC and tells them that they don't want anyone reselling their landline service? what happens then?
By the way ISPs had how many years? 10? to build out their own network? It's 10years over due that they did. | |
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adisor19
join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by hottboiinnc :Moto canopy uses 2.4GHz the same frequency that your home router uses. You can't tell me that it requires a licenses. You are rooting for your lame ass ISP because they're too cheap to build out their own network. You need to go read the WISP board here and see how many people are from Canada and run a WISP with out a problem. You can also see that I asked a question the last time this was brought up and asked if a WISP needed licenses in Canada before they could build. The answer is NO! This product: » www.motorola.com/Business/US-EN/···Networks uses the same technology your router uses. It also is designed to avoid any interference and only connects back to its base station. Maybe you should learn how things work before running your mouth when you don't know anything about a product. By the way, companies like TekSavvy have the money to start reselling Bell Landline? They have the money they can build out a wireless network. If they have the funds to sit and battle this out, they have the money to build a network. Where does all their profit go? back into the company to expand DSL? Hardly. It goes to their pocket. They should start spending some of that money on their network and building it out and they won't have to rely on Bell..... What happens when Bell goes to the CRTC and tells them that they don't want anyone reselling their landline service? what happens then? By the way ISPs had how many years? 10? to build out their own network? It's 10years over due that they did. Are you out of your mind ? Have you seen how busy the 2.4Ghz specturm is in a city ? There's no way a WISP can work in such conditions. Ya, it will work in remotely populated areas, but not in cities.
Moto Canopy ALSO offer LICENCED spectrum devices so my previous point still stands :
»www.motorola.com/Business/US-EN/···rm_US-EN
You should be the one to look up a product before spewing any wild acusations when you have no idea what you're talking about.
And again, TekSavvy doesn't make enough $$ to deploy their own fiber network with no govermnet subsidies and neither did Bell.
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fiestaware
join:2008-01-07 | Re: Bell is growing way too large. Adi is right: 2.4Ghz telephones don't even work in my (high-density) apartment building. I wouldn't want to try transferring large amounts of data at that frequency. | |
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ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH | Re: Bell is growing way too large. You must not have read the PDF about Canopy.
It is designed so IT AVOIDS the interference.
But then again you wouldn't know that since you failed to read. | |
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adisor19
join:2004-10-11
·Velcom
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Radioactif
·Videotron
·Look Communications
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by hottboiinnc :You must not have read the PDF about Canopy. It is designed so IT AVOIDS the interference. But then again you wouldn't know that since you failed to read. I don't know what you're smoking but if the entire 2.4Ghz spectrum is full of crap, there is no way to "avoid" interference. Speeds will drop to a crawl even with your super Canopy hardware.
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twofour ghz
@shawcable.net
| i lived in a acerage where 3 different companies provided 900mhz/2.4ghz service. there is nothing but interference between these companies. i have not read the pdf, but experience tells me i dont have to. you need to try this stuff out in all kinds of circumstances b4 typing. informed opinions are not mandatory, but only help to further discusion. | |
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| | | | | | | | | hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
·Time Warner Cable
·buckeye cable
| No it DOES NOT stand
You fail to see that Canopy is designed to avoid this interference. You would know that if you read the white papers. But you must not understand those like everything else, especially since the only time you really post is when it has to do with Bell killing off the ISPs because they're lazy. | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by hottboiinnc :You fail to see that Canopy is designed to avoid this interference. You would know that if you read the white papers. But you must not understand those like everything else, especially since the only time you really post is when it has to do with Bell killing off the ISPs because they're lazy. Having actual experience with Canopy equipment, I can say for certain that it doesn't work anywhere near as well as you make it out to, and that's at 5GHz. It's hate to see what it'd be like at 2.4 with all the interference around here.
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I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen. | |
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shillexposer
@qwest.net | do you own stock or something? Or are you just being an ass for the sheer amusement of it? | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by adisor19 :LOL, uhuh, i'd like to see if avoid interference on the 2.4Ghz band when it's chock full of : leaky microwave ovens, digital phones, wireless Xbox remotes, WFI access points and Bluetooth phones and every other wireless connectivity under the sun. No matter how good your Canopy device it, there is nothing it can do when the entire 2.4Ghz spectrum is full of crap. This is NOT the miraculous solution that the ISPs need. This is akin to the BPL panacea that everyone was blowing in our face a year ago. Whatever happened with that ? Oh right, it was senseless to begin with. The moron doesn't know what he's blabbering about. I have several clients on Canopy 5GHz equipment for Internet connectivity and one using Canopy 2.4GHz as a Point-to-Point link between two locations. While it works, I'd question whether it works well, and it is by no means in any way shape or form a replacement for a proper wireline connection. We always recommend that our clients ditch wireless the moment a wired alternative like cable or DSL becomes available in their area.
Also, using Canopy as an example only further proves that this clown has no clue what he's talking about, as there are MUCH MUCH better wireless implementations out there. Still, even these are no replacement for a proper wireline connection.
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I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen. | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by mlerner :A point to point connection with high gain antennas on roof tops is absolutely fine. In a ISP rollout where the range and elevation varies it's much more difficult and not reliable unless it's in ideal conditions. We've had issues with the point-to-point connection, but that turned out to be more firmware related than anything else and was eventually solved. Was a real pain in the ass when we were dealing with it, though.
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I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen. | |
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Buddah
@rogers.com
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. another point the poster in support of wireless fails to acknowledge is security! AS an IT security professional I can tell you ANY type of wireless connection can be compromised, wired hard lines can NOT. so weather its 2.4 ghz, 5 ghz, or 6.0 DECT ( which is in the works to be next) it can all be hacked. I have installed wired and wireless systems on both the US and Canadian sides of the border. | |
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Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
Niagara Falls, ON
| Re: Bell is growing way too large. said by Buddah :
another point the poster in support of wireless fails to acknowledge is security! AS an IT security professional I can tell you ANY type of wireless connection can be compromised, wired hard lines can NOT. so weather its 2.4 ghz, 5 ghz, or 6.0 DECT ( which is in the works to be next) it can all be hacked. I have installed wired and wireless systems on both the US and Canadian sides of the border. You must not be that good of an IT professional if you think that wireline is the end-all for security. All it takes is an Ethernet jack and a packet sniffer. With physical access, anyone can do anything.
Of course, wireless makes it all the more easier, but it is most certainly not impossible to break into a wired connection, and once you have physical access it is easier to work with since 99% of the time there's no transport layer encryption or anything of the sort to speak of.
I'll also pay anyone who can break into WPA2/AES with 802.1X in any sort of reasonable amount of time to make it a worthwhile endeavor. Good luck.
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I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen. | |
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shillexposer
@qwest.net | you aren't in CA so why does this matter so much to you? | |
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sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host:
Rogers
Bell Canada
| This is NOT white label service ... The term wholesale is in fact a misnomer. The 3rd party ISPs are buying a service to provide a DSL connection from consumer to the ISP's gateway. Called "Gateway Access Service" or GAS, it could be used for any number of purposes, such as a company connecting to its intranet by telecommuters at home, not just for the third party ISPs providing internet service.
Of course, there are obviously conditions to be imposed, but none of these should be based on the content or amount of data passed through the pipes up to the contracted amount of the backhaul. The incumbent has NO right to touch the contents of the data on the backhaul.
Yes, there is the right to colocate equipment, using the ILEC's last mile services (the wire), and provide your own backhaul, but GAS was a means to provide last mile and backhaul in one package. After all, it's not economic to colo equipment in all of the COs and remotes in the areas they operate in. | |
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| st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA | it IS white label service and thats why Bell is able to throttle it. companies can choose to rent bare parts like copper lines and place their OWN equipment into a central office then in that situation, bell obviously can't throttle them. | |
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See 17 replies to this post |
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| st7860
join:2004-05-13
San Francisco, CA
1 edit | »tranceparance.posterous.com/stop···make-you
"Another proceeding relating to the Internet in Canada required Telecom providers (Bell/Telus/etc.) to provide ISPs with WHOLESALE service speeds that match those that they offer to their own retail customers
Read more: »tranceparance.posterous.com/stop···tZR3Qu&B
"
and for the people who didn't already know - the reason why bell can throttle ADSL is because most companies choose to rent wholesale services from bell and just stick their own name on it thats why in some situations in ontario(you can't do this in bc or alberta) with various ADSL companies you can trade passwords and USERids and it usually works) | |
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See 17 replies to this post |
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Gman
join:2007-11-01
| So... As much as it pains me to say it, the CRTC is never going to rule in favor of the smaller ISPs. I work at one, and nearly everyone has come to accept the inevitability of UBB and to deal with the throttling issue. The only thing that sucks now is Bell can offer faster speeds while keeping resellers at 5Mb. This is going to effectively put many business OUT of business. | |
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| hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH | Re: So... And it's Bell's problem that you'll lose your job? No! It's your boss's problem. Tell them to start building out a network and you won't have a problem. | |
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AkFubar
Resistance is Futile
join:2005-02-28
Toronto Can. | Great Article!! Well written with the issues easily understood by most Canadian consumers. Now if we could only get this in front of most Canadian consumers.
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"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai | |
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See 23 replies to this post |
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GHHok
@teksavvy.com
| Ugh The problem is most people have no understanding of how their internet works, and I'd say the vast majority of people probably don't even know that there are independent ISPs. Bell's dirty tricks aside, they are a terrible terrible company to do business with. Ask any Canadian about their experience with Bell (or Rogers) and they'll give you a horror story. How do these companies stay in business? Well, because of rulings like this and the ignorance of the general public. | |
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| hottboiinnc
ME
join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH | Re: Ugh I have talked to several Rogers Customers and you know what? they're happy with Rogers. DSL SUCKS! Especially when you have to deal with a 3rd party ISP that can pass the problems on to the actual company providing the last mile. | |
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| | brad
join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
| Re: Ugh said by hottboiinnc :I have talked to several Rogers Customers and you know what? they're happy with Rogers. DSL SUCKS! Especially when you have to deal with a 3rd party ISP that can pass the problems on to the actual company providing the last mile. Rogers SUCKS ASS. | |
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lrtc
join:2004-06-05
Toronto | Wasted money Our government can fund a company and that company is not allowed to have any market advantage. I'm glad to see my tax dollars wasted again. | |
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glparker4
join:2002-11-02
Richmond, BC
·Shaw
1 edit | Something to consider... Companies like Verizon Communications are deploying FIOS throughout their territory. Smaller companies like SaskTel are following the lead. Do you think these companies would invest so heavily in these networks if they were forced to resell them to competitors at regulated rate?
I am an American living in Canada. I do understand the argument that Bell's network should be 'opened' in the public interest as it was funded by tax subsidies. I have always disagreed with the privatisation of the internet. This is similar to placing all major highways in the control of one large company. However, it will be a cold day in hell for the government to take over these networks.
Considering this, I try to understand how reselling the existing network will encourage innovation, investments, and upgrades of the network by the ILEC. For example, why isn't Bell deploying FIOS rapidly like Verizon?
Here in Vancouver, most residents in the downtown core have at least THREE providers for broadband access...Shaw (the incumbent cable operator), Telus (the incumbent phone provider), and Novus (a newcomer with a fibre network). Is it possible that we will see more companies similar to Novus appear in Canadian and US cities in the near future? | |
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fakogi
@shawcable.net | Bell is the ideal corporate greed machine. The fact that they pretty much own the crtc and can get away with murder is proof. | |
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davidl
join:2008-07-11
Vaudreuil-Dorion, QC
·Look Communications
| Nationalize Telecommunications Networks It's like this...frakking Bell gives us what we want, or it's time to pull a Venezuela and nationalize their infrastructure...we'll still get screwed, but so will they.
If Steven Harper's Conservatives will not deliver satisfaction on this issue (I voted for him), I will vote NDP, Liberal or Bloc Quebcois in the next federal election...frak Canada...it has never been anything to me but a liability anyway. | |
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| XNemesis
join:2002-11-16
Kitchener, ON
| Re: Nationalize Telecommunications Networks I still say that the biggest problem is that this situation is largely unknown to most Canadians. If a large majority of internet users being fed up enough to force a difference does not occur, then this current dilemma will never change, or at least not for a very very long time. And I just wonder if word is really getting out there beyond this website and it's Canadian users? | |
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alphaz18
join:2005-02-26
CANADA
| To HotBoi. I do understand to some extend where hotboiinc is coming from. he is looking at this from a purely capitalistic viewpoint. in a free market capitalistic world. he would be absolutely right. However, Bell does not exist in a capitalistic environment. they were given money by tax payers to build the network. and as such they don't deserve these same rights.
How would you like it, if you were working hard at your little private company, then.. some other startup with ties to the gvn't got 100 million $ in free money from gvn't then opened the same business as you, then drove you out of business with $$$ and government support? .. according to your theory. that would make it absolutely your own fault that you got crushed because you didnt have better ties with the gvn't and didnt have 100 million in the bank ready to compete?
I'm sorry but thats the EXACT... same thing thats happening right now to the small ISPs. the world isn't as black and white capitalistic view. theres a pretty huge shade of gray. that is tax payers money and the gvn'ts and how they use it. the problem here is the GVN"T and how they're NOT representing the CITIZENS. but they're representing the Shareholders/Stakeholders of huge monopolistic companies. all this stuff about cable dsl, and moto wireless canopy is moot and just beating around the bush. | |
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Canadian Consumer Groups Slam CRTC
