There's Still No Evidence That Metered Billing Is Necessary Growth is manageable, companies are profitable, what's the problem? Yesterday we issued a report exploring how Verizon was again hinting at how they believed metered billing is inevitable. We also discussed how yet again, you had an ISP suggesting that a shift to metered billing was financially necessary (not true) and that the ISP desire to shift to metered billing was dictated by some kind of altruism (also not true). Apparently, this position upset Todd Spangler over at Multichannel News, who somewhere in between taking pot shots at "edgy bloggers" and "clueless" flat-rate pricing proponents arrives at his central thesis: that consumption-based billing is inevitable: Anyway, my point is that consumption-based billing models are inevitable mainly because Internet demand is shooting through the roof. Today's broadband networks - not even FiOS - are not constructed to deliver peak theoretical demand and adding more capacity to the home or farther upstream will require investment. Again, the inference that the flat-rate pricing model mysteriously doesn't offer the money needed to fund investment is simply not true, should you care to look at any major ISP balance sheet or 10-K. Internet usage data (at least the data not coming from DC lobbyists pushing the "Exaflood") indicates that future capacity demand can be met with only modest capacity upgrades. New data from the University of Minnesota this week indicates that growth continues to slow. So if by "shooting through the roof," Spangler means "completely manageable with only modest investment and smart engineering," he's right. Otherwise, not so much. Spangler's second major point is that consumption-based billing is inevitable because bandwidth caps won't work. To prove his point, Spangler turns to a guy that sells network throttling hardware for a living. "Bandwidth caps don't do anything for you," agrees Sandvine CEO David Caputo, who obviously would rather ISPs pay his company to install network management hardware that can detect and manage network congestion in real time. Comcast's Sandvine deployment does just that, detecting heavy users on congested nodes and throttling them back temporarily -- without the majority of network users even noticing. But Spangler derails his own point here. Comcast's using a combination of investment in DOCSIS 3.0, smart engineering, intelligent network management hardware and a 250GB cap to handle demand on peak and off. All of that is funded, with plenty of money to spare, by flat-rate pricing. The 1% of users who are still a problem can be bumped to more expensive business-class tiers. The capacity demands are being taken care of now and in the future, customers understand the pricing and limits, Comcast's network is healthy, most of their costs are fixed or decreasing, and their business is hugely profitable. Yet Spangler says: If you want to pretend that all-you-can-eat plans are sustainable at todays price tiers, youd be kind of clueless. Now as Spangler himself says he's "the man" and we're just "edgy blogger types" (edgy is apparently a polite euphemism for asking questions when presented with industry talking points) but again: where's the evidence that a shift to consumption-based billing is necessary? Repeating that metered billing is necessary and inevitable doesn't magically make it so.
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 baineschile2600 ways to livePremium join:2008-05-10 Sterling Heights, MI 1 edit | Wrong Metered billing is inevitable. All the news peddled here to the opposite of it just shows how much its gaining steam behind corporate analyst doors.
If it can make more money, it will be done | |
|  |  Host: Time Warner Intern.. PC gaming GAMES PC gaming Tech
| Re: Wrong All the news peddled here to the opposite of it just shows how much its gaining steam behind corporate analyst doors. Investors have been pushing this for years. It gained steam up until Time Warner Cable tried to actually implement it, at which time they were laughed back to "behind corporate analyst doors." It's only inevitable if the users allow it. | |
|  |  |  baineschile2600 ways to livePremium join:2008-05-10 Sterling Heights, MI Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Wrong Time Warners mistake was jumping in the pool. When you inch in, it isnt at cold.
The metaphorical issues that i am targeting are caps and throttling; things that didnt exist a decade ago.
Maybe ISPs are starting to realize that IP delivery is the future, and they are just protecting their investment? | |
|  |  |  |  Host: Time Warner Intern.. PC gaming GAMES PC gaming Tech
| Re: Wrong When you inch in, it isnt at cold. Is this where I mention the slowly turn up the heat to boil an unwitting frog metaphor?Maybe ISPs are starting to realize that IP delivery is the future, and they are just protecting their investment? Comcast apparently believes IP delivery, Movie tickets, concert tickets, VoIP, TV, Internet video, blogs, and network broadcasting via NBC Universal is the future....I'd say they're pretty well diversified from a future-protection perspective. | |
|  |  |  |  LinklistPremium join:2002-03-03 Longport, NJ kudos:5 | said by baineschile:Time Warners mistake was jumping in the pool. When you inch in, it isnt at cold. The metaphorical issues that i am targeting are caps and throttling; things that didnt exist a decade ago. Maybe ISPs are starting to realize that IP delivery is the future, and they are just protecting their investment? And Time Warner tried to do this while also putting on way too low caps. The mgt there were stupid. And yes metered billing is inevitable. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
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|  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Wrong If its inevitable, then regulate it as a utility. Then you can have carriers pricing models be subjected to the scrutiny of whomever regulates it, such as a PUC...wouldn't that be fun.... Then you could define a cap as cost, which would also give the regulating body room to scrutinize their networks to either prove or deny the necessity for a cap. Since a cap does absolutely nothing for congestion, carriers would have to justify the cap for other reasons. Karl cites the effort put forth by Comcast to evolve with changing demands, but Comcast is one of the few that are taking a proactive approach. It seems to me that all of this talk about metered biulling is distracting us from the conversation we should be having. That is...where do we want to be with our broadband services 10 years from now and how do we get there? 12 years ago , then President Clinton gave billions of dollars in tax incentives to these douchebags ( change if you like Karl) for a broadband highway that was supposedly going to deliver 40mbps to every home in America. 12 years later half the country is living under neglected dsl networks and the other half is getting gouged for 10 mbps or better. The current carrier system collectively has brought nothing but stagnation. This is what needs to be addressed. Well, this rant was therapeutic if nothing else! -- BF69~~~Please stop suffocating gerbils! | |
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·Verizon FiOS
| no, it's not.
we wouldn't even be having this discussion if there were competition in broadband.
if the FCC gets off it's @ss and starts doing their job, someday we will have competition (maybe). the question is, will this happen before metered billing happens? | |
|  |  |  | | Re: Wrong said by nasadude:we wouldn't even be having this discussion if there were competition in broadband. if the FCC gets off it's @ss and starts doing their job, someday we will have competition (maybe). the question is, will this happen before metered billing happens? + 1 --
- "Techie" Jim | |
|  |  |  | | Like how all the competition helped our cell phone bills? | |
|  |  |  |  | | Re: Wrong said by yt:Like how all the competition helped our cell phone bills? It did. Otherwise you would have a situation way worse than it actually is. | |
|  |  |  |  |  1 edit | Re: Wrong Pahleeez... I pay more for my family cell phone plan than my entire cable triple play. Guess which one I use more and has more cost of infrastructure and content. I guess all those SMS messages and ringtones are really expensive for the wireless companies and competition just doesn't do it....
Competition... Bah! | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  zipjay join:2003-03-11 South Williamson, KY | Re: Wrong Remember long distance? I certainly do. Now you can call California from New York and pay the same price as if your calling your neighbor | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: Wrong said by zipjay:Remember long distance? I certainly do. Now you can call California from New York and pay the same price as if your calling your neighbor during that long distance era the phone system was also beyond corrupt. it was cheaper to call California then to call the next county. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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 |  | | said by baineschile:Metered billing is inevitable. All the news peddled here to the opposite of it just shows how much its gaining steam behind corporate analyst doors. If it can make more money, it will be done All the pro-corporations talking points peddled here will not hide what it is: a rip-off against the consumer. | |
|  |  | | we have to all fight this shit.consumption billing will kill the internet and probably kill my holocaust memorial site which has a full 6 DVD free set of my 5 1/2 hour documentary.to download it will take you 6 DVD's so go figure the math as to how many will even bother to watch it when they watch their downloads. these greedbags nust think we are all just mindless sheep.
my holocaust memorial on my site www.bigmeathammer.com | |
|  |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA 1 edit | If metered billing is inevitable than so is the "dumb pipe" separating content and distribution. If consumers have to put up with crappy metered billing you can bet there will be enough angry consumers demanding (even throwing some congress critters out of office if that what it takes) that content and distribution companies be separated. | |
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 Matt3All noise, no signal.Premium join:2003-07-20 Jamestown, NC kudos:12 | He lost me here ... He lost me riiiight about here, "peak theoretical demand."
Define: theoretical
- of or pertaining to theoretic studies (abstract, not empirical) - concerned primarily with theories or hypotheses rather than practical considerations; "theoretical science" - theoretically - in theory; according to the assumed facts; "on paper the candidate seems promising"
So he admits his argument isn't based in fact, but rather on a set of assumptions that could possibly come to pass if the stars align in a manner that they never have in the past. On that, I totally agree with him. -- trafficcloak.com - pptp/sstp vpn services | |
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approval from: amigo_boy 
| In one sentence. The only people who fear metered billing are people who believe their bill will go up with metered billing.
In one paragraph:
This ISP has 1342 subscribers on PPPoE.
Last month they used : 5,454,239,899,513 bytes The average user used: 4,064,262,220 bytes The usage standard deviation was: 9,941,760,033
When the standard deviation is twice the average there are some huge anomalies (read "really big pigs").
USERS BELOW AVERAGE: 1019 USERS ABOVE AVERAGE: 322
So, as I said, the only people who fear metered billing are those who use fifty times the average...
Ta Ta
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|  |  1 edit | Re: In one sentence. It has been said again and again on this forum that no one is referring to true per byte billing, ONLY to disproportionately price-gouging overage charges over low caps, when it come to the idea of "metered billing" by the ISP's. | |
|  |  R4M0NBrazilian Soccer Ownz Joo join:2000-10-04 Glen Allen, VA 2 edits | said by AnonDOG :
The only people who fear metered billing are people who believe their bill will go up with metered billing. Or people who understand where this is going in the future even if their bills do not change under metered billing.

I'm not a heavy user by any means but I do understand that once metered billing is implemented in the name of penalizing the "hogs", the next step will be to tweak it for maximum profit by constantly redefining the meaning of "hog".
One only needs to look that the pricing scheme of text messaging to realize how bad it could get. | |
|  |  |  Host: Time Warner Intern.. PC gaming GAMES PC gaming Tech
| Re: In one sentence. Congestion has always been used as a red herring to engage in anti-competitive behavior, be it Skype or a million other bogeyman. All without having to provide a shred of actual raw network data. Anyone who doesn't at least recognize the threat these models could potentially pose to the Internet either is playing willfully ignorant because they stand to profit, or they haven't really been paying attention. | |
|  |  |  |  | | Re: In one sentence. Agreed Karl, and the divide seems to be between businessmen who want profit, and network engineers who want to build better networks, and nary the two will ever meet. Oil and water as far as the "perfect ISP net" is concerned.
Oh and the users, who fund all of this, well they can just sit there and eat dirt. | |
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 |  |  XBL2009------ join:2001-01-03 Chicago, IL | said by R4M0N:said by AnonDOG :
The only people who fear metered billing are people who believe their bill will go up with metered billing. Or people who understand where this is going in the future even if their bills do not change under metered billing.  I'm not a heavy user by any means but I do understand that once metered billing is implemented in the name of penalizing the "hogs", the next step will be to tweak it for maximum profit by constantly redefining the meaning of "hog". One only needs to look that the pricing scheme of text messaging to realize how bad it could get. Exactly and that is their end goal. -- Capitalism is competition, if you don't have competition then you don't have capitalism.
Rush Limbaugh is the cliff clavin of the republican party.
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|  |  |  dvd536as Mr. Pink as they comePremium join:2001-04-27 Phoenix, AZ kudos:4 | said by R4M0N:said by AnonDOG :
The only people who fear metered billing are people who believe their bill will go up with metered billing. Or people who understand where this is going in the future even if their bills do not change under metered billing. Remember when rogers DROPPED their cap because they weren't making what they thought they would with metered billing? so eventually it'll cost even grandma email checker more when providers drop the cap to low levels. -- When I gez aju zavateh na nalechoo more new yonooz tonigh molinigh - Ken Lee | |
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 |  |  |  |  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP
| Re: In one sentence. said by r81984:Metered billing cannot be accurate on a TCP/IP network unless they force all users to run a program that tracks bandwidth on all of our end devices from computers to Xbox's to the refridgerator that can download recipies and video tutorials, etc. They cannot accurately track usage at the switch or modem level as anyone can send GBs of garbage data to your IP and that will count against you. Of course they can measure it at the switch. Octets in / Octets out counters have been around since the inception of network hardware. In DOCSIS networks, for example, there are counters for UNICAST frames in / out on a per attached MAC basis. I emphasize unicast because the common argument is "What about all the ARP requests counting against my cap?" -- those get counted against the BROADCAST frame counter and are not associated with the modem MAC counters. The ARP requests all have a destination address of all F's, 5 seconds of time with Wireshark will confirm.
Usage-based billing is the standard for carrier connections today. As an enterprise, we pay commit + 95th percentile overage on all of our Internet connections in 14 countries. Of course, paying for full line-rate connections is also an option, but not always the most economical option.
said by r81984:Everyone should fear metered billing, because the average usage constantly goes up. We will all be paying more with metered billing and alot of people will be screwed over by having to pay for data they never downloaded. You will be hearing stories of how a grandmother got a $10,000 bill because of a virus on her computer Everyone should fear Y2K because computers using 2 digit years won't respond correctly when that counter rolls to 00, resulting in widescale power outages, crashes of banking and financial systems, and general anarchy.
Nothing gives credence to an argument like waiving your hands in the air like a Team America puppet and telling people why they should be afraid. DoS attacks do happen, but not that frequently. The Internet industry as a whole has already cracked this nut: deal with the exceptions on a case-by-case basis. The good companies out there will deal with the situation accordingly and give customers a pass for being the victim of malicious activity.
The issue isn't the system of usage-based billing - it's the policies under which it's implemented. Usage-based billing is simply a method, it is neither fair nor unjust in and of itself. It all comes down to how the companies involved choose to implement it.
said by r81984:Metered billing is not fair anyways because everyone's connection costs the same if you utilize it 100% or at 0%. Again, false, because you are assuming capacity at the core is equal to the sum of the attachment at the edge. This is not the case in broadband networks.
You want a pricing example for a technology that is 1:1 provisioned? Price yourself out DS1/DS3 / OC# services for clear channel end-to-end capacity. There is more than an order of magnitude difference in price compared to what you pay for broadband IP service. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP
2 edits | Re: In one sentence. said by r81984:I am not talking about ARP requests or broadcast traffic. It seems like you know what I am talking about but just want to pretend they can accurately count traffic. You don't have to feed me BS, I have first hand experience trying to accurately record bandwidth from the switch level and there is no way with TCP/IP to make it accurate. Clearly you have to know what you're doing, namely make sure you're using 64 bit counters vs the standard 32 bit counters that many try to use. Still, this is a problem the industry as a whole solved over a decade ago. Level(3), Cogent, Sprint, MCI, ATT, Global Crossing, PCCW/BTN, AboveNet, Hurricane Electric, Internap, Savvis, Telia Sonera, Peer1, and pretty much every other Internet carrier out there has successfully cracked this nut.
said by r81984:Also, everyone is vunerable from virus and spyware traffic that they cannot control. Having your computer infected for 24 hours could give you huge overages and costs. Again you can't trust any of these ISPs with case by case rule. First off, point out a single residential broadband proposal where someone could get a $10k bill for metered broadband. Even the Time Warner proposal that caught so much heat had a maximum cap of $75 in overage charges. So if you were on the $75 top tier plan, the worst monthly bill you could ever see is $150. It's incredibly easy to mitigate these types of issues from becoming financially crippling by implementing simple policies like overage caps.
said by r81984:If you went to pay by the byte right now thousands would get giantic bills at the end of the month just from viruses and spyware. If you ever had to work internet tech support you would know this. The publicly available statistics don't support that, such as Cisco's broadband traffic study or several of the reports available at »www.dtc.umn.edu/mints/home.php
The other problem with this assertion is that ISPs already have verbiage in their ToS today that allows them to evict heavy users from the network due to either openly or not-so-openly disclosed usage limits. The folks who would be facing your proposed multi-thousand dollar overage would have already been ejected from the network due to ToS usage violations.
"Unlimited" usage is a farce. ISPs either took their own swag at usage, or actually invested in hiring some bean counters with actuarial sciences knowledge to price their service offerings. Every company has a magic value of bandwidth that they want to sell you for your monthly subscription rate. Capacity can always be augmented for more money, so they put a price on usage based on the estimated costs of future expansion. Everyone who uses less than that amount of bandwidth is profitable, everyone over that amount is unprofitable. Reach a certain level over the unprofitable mark, face ejection from the network.
That's the biggest risk to the current flat-rate system of billing. It only works so long as subscribers conform to the ISP's planned amount of usage.
said by r81984:No one is forcing ISPs to give 20mpbs, if they up their speeds without increasing the bandwidth to their network then oh well, not our problem. If they are overselling the network everyones connection rate should go down, but that never happens. Why don't they upgrade their networks with the extra money? The link between quantity usage and provisioned rate is quite possibly the most misunderstood / misrepresented concept in networking.
Network access is essentially random, which leads favorably to a statistically muxed or oversubscribed configuration. The key variable in all of this is time. Giving users higher provisioned speeds actually has what many would consider to be a counter-intuitive effect: it makes even greater levels of oversubscription work better. The reason behind this is simple: you're going to use the network to get the content you want, regardless of the speed. The faster you can get the content, the less time your traffic will be present on the network, and the less likely it is that your file transfer will coincide with other user's file transfers on the network.
To say that ISPs haven't been upgrading their networks is a huge misstatement. They absolutely are -- that's why you're seeing DOCSIS 3.0 rollouts, Qwest & ATT doing deeper fiber deployments, Verizon doing FTTH deployments. The problem with flat-rate pricing is that upgrades are also flat-rate budgeted. Upgrades come as money is pooled to support the infrastructure increases, which have absolutely no link to demand other than being a selection criteria for where upgrades will be deployed first. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  espaethDigital PlumberPremium,MVM join:2001-04-21 Minneapolis, MN kudos:2 Reviews:
·Vitelity VOIP
| Re: In one sentence. said by r81984:"64 bit counters vs the standard 32 bit counters" LOL. You have no idea what that means.The different between those two do not make it more accurate for legit and non legit traffic. I never said it made it more accurate for "legit and non-legit" traffic. The places where many people run into issues with SNMP polling of interfaces is if the interface counters wrap too quickly in between polling cycles, which is more likely to occur with 32bit number space.
As for "legit vs non-legit" traffic, that's a non-factor. "Non-legit" traffic, as you define it, is the statistical exception, not the statistical norm. Yes, people could definitely generate tons of traffic addressed at an end-user that isn't part of an active or established connection ... yet in most cases that doesn't happen. In fact, you are statistically more likely to get in a fatal automobile accident than have that occur -- are you going to quit driving out of fear?
Being in a support position of course you are going to see this occur with a greater amount of visiblity. Same deal with EMTs who spend their days cleaning up the after effects of automobile accidents...
said by r81984:If they truely are hurting for money they need to raise the monthly connection fees, not try to screw people and limiting the internet by charging by the byte. Ok. So if 1% of your subscriber base is using resources at a level that causes you to incur further financial impact, you're saying 100% of the subscriber base should have their rates raised because of it?
said by r81984:Charging by the byte will not benefit anyone and as user average usage increases due to higher bandwidth websites we will all be screwed. The same way pre-paid cellular options screwed over people?
There are cases where usage-based billing can make sense, and can be effective.
Comcast has a 250GB residential usage cap. You use too much bandwidth, you get a call. Go over the limit again, you get punted from the service.
Flat-rate isn't unlimited. You keep pointing out cases where usage will increase, but in the case of flat-rate billing you don't get the option to pay more -- you just get the option to conform or be kicked out. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  r81984Fair and BalancedPremium join:2001-11-14 Katy, TX Reviews:
·row44
·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T DSL Service
1 edit | Re: In one sentence. Just imagine if 1/2% of all electricity meters and water meters in this country were wrong and there was no way to prove they were wrong. There will never be a 100% way to monitor bandwidth unless they install software on each end users device. Also, since the costs of the network are fixed based on each connection there is no reason to come up with some BS variable billing because if done properly the company would end up loosing money as it was previously posted that there are way more people below average than above. They will only implement it in a way that hurts consumers and makes them more money.
If they want more money they just need to raise the flat fee instead of punishing people who untilize their connection.
250GB cap is way too low, with netflix that could be less than two movies a day. Again hopefully you dont like to use itunes, netflix, hulu, xm online, xbox live, or watch online news, youtube, upload videos, etc.
Anytime you have have a cap you are unfairly restricting the internet and limiting online businesses. For the internet to work it has to be free and unrestricted.
I am just curious which monster ISP do you work for? It is obvious your views are not based on reason or experience, but on a job or something else. -- Democrats are not Socialists any more than Republicans are. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  See 13 replies to this post |
 |  | | Yes, but you are missing the point. In the last month, they used 5.4TB of data. BUT, the previous month, they only used 3.8TB of data. YET their COST was EXACTLY the same? Their FEAR is that the 322 users who are above average gets larger, they will need to INVEST in the infrastructure to support those users. THAT is what they are afraid of. THE COST to provide 5.4TB is EXACTLY THE SAME as the cost to provide 10TB of data, which is EXACTLY THE SAME as the cost to provide 1TB of data. The PROBLEM is when they need to provide 11TB of data, well, that will require a CAPITAL INVESTMENT, but there is no UNIT COST for a byte. Please explain how charging based on UNITS is fair, when there is no UNIT COST. -- The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity! | |
|  |  badtripI heart the East BayPremium join:2004-03-20 Albany, CA | Your statistics are useless and mean nothing in this context. If you want to convince me with statistics you better bring your A game and compare apples to apples or at least try to make some baseline definitions and assumptions.
Here's an analogy:
Last month 1342 "eaters" consumed a total of 120,780,000 calories. The average "eaters" consumed 90,000 calories.
"eaters" below average: 1019 "eaters" above average: 322
Therefore there are 322 fat ass pigs who eat too much and 1019 dieters.
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|  |  |  See 6 replies to this post | |
 |  | | said by AnonDOG :
The only people who fear metered billing are people who believe their bill will go up with metered billing. While you aren't entirely wrong, another part of the problem is that the people who simply check their email a couple times a day and use maybe 2GB/month should see their bills go down significantly if it were truly "metered billing." Do you think that will really happen? I highly doubt it. | |
|  |  jimbopalmerTsar of all the Rushers join:2008-06-02 Greenwood, MS kudos:2 | said by AnonDOG :
The only people who fear metered billing are people who believe their bill will go up with metered billing. And those of us who fear that even with metered billing, our bills won't go down. If you are talking 0 bits, $0 cost billing I am all ears. If you are talking Flat rate at some huge price, then metered for every byte, expect a massive loss of customers. My water bill and electric bill are not $50 plus what I use, they are 0 use, $0 dollars, then what I use. -- I tried to remain child-like, all I achieved was childish. | |
|  |  |  openbox9Premium join:2004-01-26 japan kudos:2 1 edit | Re: In one sentence. Your bill will never be $0 as long as you have a connection. There's an inherent cost of providing service to you whether you use it or not. And if you really pay $0 for no use of electricity/water while you actually have a connection, then consider yourself extremely fortunate. | |
|  |  |  |  RARPSL join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY | Re: In one sentence. said by openbox9:Your bill will never be $0 as long as you have a connection. There's an inherent cost of providing service to you whether you use it or not. And if you look at the discounts that you get for having more than one service in Double/Triple Play deals, that cost is in the $5-10 range. I get this figure since having more than one of these services (TV, VIOP, Internet) is that much less than the sum of the individual services. When you add the second or third service, the connection has already been paid for with the first so they give you a discount of the cost of the Accounting and the "dry" connection (ie: The ability to have services). These are thus based on the Cable Company's own pricing rates so the Metered Rate should be $5-10 plus usage. | |
|  |  |  |  |  openbox9Premium join:2004-01-26 japan kudos:2 | Re: In one sentence. We've had this discussion before. I don't believe you can assume that just because you receive a discount for purchasing multiple services, that the discount is the base cost of extending a cable to your house. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  RARPSL join:1999-12-08 Suffern, NY | Re: In one sentence. said by openbox9:We've had this discussion before. I don't believe you can assume that just because you receive a discount for purchasing multiple services, that the discount is the base cost of extending a cable to your house. If it is not then the cable company is cheating the customer by not giving the full discount. I am using the accounting method of computing the cost. IOW: The Fixed Cost of the connection and the Variable cost of each service.
How do you explain what the true cost of the connection is other than the above method? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  openbox9Premium join:2004-01-26 japan kudos:2 | Re: In one sentence. I wouldn't call it "cheating the customer". Companies (not limited to just cable companies BTW) use discounts to upsell their products and sell additional products/services that consumers might not ordinarily purchase. The concept is similar to "buy one, get one half price" deals to entice consumers to purchase more than they need/want....and those deals don't mean that the retailers' base costs are 50%.
Only the providers can identify their true costs of their services. You and I can guess all day long, but we can't definitely answer the question. | |
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 |  VanPremium join:2009-07-08 New Orleans, LA | On the contrary, I go well under any sort of cap but I think EVERYONE can see that these companies are looking for ways to over-charge, over-charge, and over-charge whenever they can.
If this type of system gets in and everyone starts using it, I wouldn't be shocked to see ANOTHER step put in to charge us even more....whether it is adding 2nd fees for going over by X amount (a small amount over the cap can be a 2nd tier fee) or some other thought
The road it leads down scares me and my future bill | |
|  |  | | said by AnonDOG :
The only people who fear metered billing are people who believe their bill will go up with metered billing.
In one paragraph:
This ISP has 1342 subscribers on PPPoE.
Last month they used : 5,454,239,899,513 bytes The average user used: 4,064,262,220 bytes The usage standard deviation was: 9,941,760,033
When the standard deviation is twice the average there are some huge anomalies (read "really big pigs").
USERS BELOW AVERAGE: 1019 USERS ABOVE AVERAGE: 322
So, as I said, the only people who fear metered billing are those who use fifty times the average...
Ta Ta
amigo boy giving you a thumbs up is the kiss of death... | |
|  |  FBGuyPremium join:2005-03-19 Evanston, IL | you assume that the usage is normally distributed i take it.. -- sbcglobal.net speedtest result 11/11/09 - 5256kbps | |
|  |  DampierPhillip M Dampier join:2003-03-23 Rochester, NY | said by AnonDOG :
The only people who fear metered billing are people who believe their bill will go up with metered billing. The fun of it is that once they establish the model, it's limbo dance time as caps can get lower, like Bell pulled up in Canada. Then, they just need to sit back and wait for the rising tide of all broadband traffic to rise and get the last laugh at what last year was a generous limit and today is not nearly enough.
Every provider has a different idea of what represents reasonable usage. For Frontier, it's 5 gigabytes. For Time Warner, it was 40GB. For AT&T, it's around 100-150GB, for Comcast it's 250GB. Cablevision thinks limits are stupid and doesn't have any.
Nobody should be comfortable with that, especially if Frontier is your phone company and Time Warner is your cable provider. -- Phillip M. Dampier Editor, Stop the Cap! »stopthecap.com | |
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 | | by by next i say this now i say it later. the first time verizon even hints to me that the will metter bill me or cap my connection i will close the acct on the spot with no explanation or will i allow them to even talk about it to me i will just keep yelling at the rep closing the acct to shut up and not talk and close the acct. i do not even want to here there side not one word. and evertime they try to even speak i will tell them to go and find some other sucker to tell that bullshit to.i will not pay or will i allow the internet in my home under those conditions. so verizon expect me to be first in line to close the acct this you can count on. | |
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 SLDPremium join:2002-04-17 San Francisco, CA | Bad horse, bad! Flogging a dead horse this week. | |
|  |  See 10 replies to this post | |
 | | Reporters Need A Lesson in Network Economics Todd shows a stunning lack of knowledge of network economics, the history of pricing in telecommunications, and business. He's just one among many DC reporters whose sole source of support comes from the industry he reports on, and he is happy to be spun and carry water for them.
First, from an economics standpoint, there are 3 segments to a network's cost -- cap ex, op ex maintenance, and op ex transport.
The FCC's broadband team reported that in urban areas, an ISP's total cost per customer is about $8 per month on average. Of this $8, only 50 cents per month is attributed to transport cost.
Cap ex is a fixed cost, and most of their op ex is fixed. There is almost no variable cost. The typical ISP owns their fiber lines to POPs, or if they don't, they lease the line on a 95th % pricing basis; it's a fixed, not variable costs.
From an efficiency standpoint, the proper way to charge for this network is through a monthly fixed cost. It costs Comcast the same to deploy and operate a line to my house as it does to my P2P-loving neighbor's house.
The latter is an important point. The ISPs are purposely confusing congestion pricing and usage based billing. But they are not the same, not at all. Under the principle of efficiency, they should allow a "hog" to download as much as she wants, so long as she does it not during peak hours, as the variable cost and the "congestion externality cost" of her "hogging" is virtually zero (it certainly is for the Tier 1 ISPs).
But let's go back to that $8 figure. That means that if they are charging you $40 per month, they have a profit margin of 80 percent. That, under any lens, is certainly enough for them to make the occasional capacity upgrade needed to keep up with the predictable but slowing increases in bandwidth demand.
Again, none of this talk about UBB has anything to do with really controlling congestion, and all the talk about hogs paying their "fair share of the network's cost" is bunk, because those costs are fixed. | |
|  | | More $$$ for the companies Companies want to keep making more money every year. They keep coming up with different ways of increasing profits on the backs of the customers. Since most people that use the internet don't know nothing about megabytes, or gigabytes these large companies take adavantge of this. Why can't they be content with what they are making, and be glad they are not losing customers. | |
|  |  sw30908 join:2002-06-02 Morrisville, NC | Irrelevant It makes no difference if it's 'Necessary' or not. If the company selling the product feels the need to price it a certain way then that is entirely their business. If their new billing schema is incompatible with what we, as individuals, feel the product is worth then we are perfectly free to NOT BUY IT. | |
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| Re: Irrelevant You make the common mistake of assuming people impacting by this pricing model would actually have a choice of carriers and local competition.
"Go elsewhere" isn't applicable if you have one ISP. Or two that are collectively colluding to impose a new pricing model that offers a consumer less value. | |
|  |  |  sw30908 join:2002-06-02 Morrisville, NC | Re: Irrelevant said by Karl Bode:You make the common mistake of assuming people impacting by this pricing model would actually have a choice of carriers and local competition. "Go elsewhere" isn't applicable if you have one ISP. Or two that are collectively colluding to impose a new pricing model that offers a consumer less value. The reason most people only have One ISP is because of past government interference. It's the same as health care. Government interference and regulation causes a problem, and the only solution offered is a further power grab by the same government that caused the problem in the first place. Eventually yet another '5 year plan' will not be enough to prop up the farce. | |
|  |  |  | | said by Karl Bode:You make the common mistake of assuming people impacting by this pricing model would actually have a choice of carriers and local competition. "Go elsewhere" isn't applicable if you have one ISP. Or two that are collectively colluding to impose a new pricing model that offers a consumer less value. You make the common mistake of assuming that broadband is a right.
It is not. | |
|  |  |  |  | | Re: Irrelevant You make the common mistake of assuming that you're right.
You never are. | |
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 | | Great It is bad enough we get spammed to hell now with spam email, ads, etc. Every website one goes to anymore is full of ads, sadly. So, now, not only are we forced to view all this crap and deal with spam mail, now we are gonna be forced to pay for it all too!? I for one will go back to dial up, lol, and get a flat rate. -- Images are Copyrighted and use is NOT permitted. | |
|  ctceoPremium join:2001-04-26 South Bend, IN Reviews:
·magicjack.com
·AT&T U-Verse
1 edit | I told you so, maybe?... I've had a relatively pain-free way of allowing people voice their opinion before the metered apocalypse occurs. But Alas, if not enough people complain then metered billing must be ok. As far as I noticed I have the only petition out there, and given the amount of people who have signed it either A)Its not getting enough coverage, the petition that is. B)People really do want to move to metered billing C)People in general have become complacent and feel that no matter what they do the person(s) is charge won't care D)They have the false notion that by somehow voting with their wallets they can make change. Well the last is true, but would you rather not PREVENT that change before it mucks everything up?
BTW, it's not to late to visit the petition, nor is it too late to take your own stand. Write a letter to the person(s) in charge of your ISP and tell them how you really feel! -- Would you like your ISP to govern how much you can use the web in a month? Well it might happen if we don't do something NOW! »www.ipetitions.com/petition/PMDBI/ | |
|  | | National Security If our national internet infrastructure is a national security issue (per President Obama's definition) why are we allowing corporations to manage our National Security without proper oversight?
I'll accept metered billing - but it better be metered billing as supervised by the gov't. See the Electric/Gas companies as examples. If they are going to force metered billing on consumers there better be some serious consumer protections. Personally I can't wait to pay $100 a month for 800 minutes of dropped calls....oh wait - got confused for a minute | |
|  |  | | Re: National Security That may ultimately be what derails this.
If they want metered billing, they'd better be well-prepared to accept additional regulation ensuring that "meters" are working properly as with utilities. Something tells me they won't want that... | |
|  |  |  | | Re: National Security said by Karl Bode:That may ultimately be what derails this. If they want metered billing, they'd better be well-prepared to accept additional regulation ensuring that "meters" are working properly as with utilities. Something tells me they won't want that... Any CISCO switch or router can do this job. The accounting tools are already in place.
Every authentication server I have ever seen logs this data to a log server. We know when you log on, when you log off, and any details about your traffic streams that we care to observe.
CALEA Requires us to have that capability already. | |
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 | | heh If broadband comes to metered billing then the people of America will want Universal broadband even more. | |
|  |  RolteC0h join:2001-05-20 Fresh Meadows, NY kudos:1 | Re: heh Yes, and then everyone will start to sue because someone who used 1GB a month got charged $40 and the the one who used 10GB got charged the same $40, yet the one that used 300GB got charged $150. This means the person with 1GB usage will sue because they deserved to only be charged $4/month, based on the usage.
See how much grief this would cause everyone. | |
|  |  |  | | Re: heh said by RolteC:Yes, and then everyone will start to sue because someone who used 1GB a month got charged $40 and the the one who used 10GB got charged the same $40, yet the one that used 300GB got charged $150. This means the person with 1GB usage will sue because they deserved to only be charged $4/month, based on the usage. See how much grief this would cause everyone. You just defined metered billing. Metered billing is when everyone pays the same amount for the bandwidth they use. People who use more bandwidth pay proportionally more than those who don't turn on their computer that month, for example. | |
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 | | This article can be summed up from link comment section In response to: Why Monthly Broadband Usage Caps Won't Really Work (But Usage-Based Billing Will) Todd Spangler commented:
DM - Have you ever run an Internet service provider? I haven't but I know people who do. Also, I said "edgy" bloggers, not "nasty" bloggers.
Its quite simple, the guy makes it known who he's with. If I "knew" people, I'd probably try to push their talking points under the guise of an unbiased blog posting too. | |
|  | | if you let it power in numbers what part do you people still do not get dump them for a week and they will kiss your ass to get you back so when the bill comes and they try it give it up for one week and see what happens but you will all have to do it to make it work come on what are we drug addicts do we need this shit i did not use it for years next we will pay for air we pay more then enough greed that's why the USA is where it is at now in the crapper // | |
|  calvoiper join:2003-03-31 Belvedere Tiburon, CA | It all depends.... It all depends on the "bottleneck" facilities and their applicability to service and vulnerability to competition.
In some areas (rural, with only wireless access) almost everything is "shared" and the bottleneck is near-universal. In such a case, metered billing is much more likely than somewhere that has great quantities of FTTH or FTTC available.
It's not unlike parking lots for supermarkets. They are universally thought of as free and un-metered, but access policies change when you get to the really pricey real estate areas. (Consider the Safeway at Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco, for example.)
calvoiper -- VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
|  maartenaElmoPremium join:2002-05-10 Orange, CA kudos:1 | It fits in the list.... Jan 1st 2000, all computers will break! The internet will break down if we don't cap! In 2012, we're all going to die!
etc.... -- "I reject your reality and substitute my own!" | |
|  | | If there are "net neutrality" regs, it will be necessary If the FCC is unwise enough to impose "net neutrality" regulations, no ISP will be able to stay solvent without imposing consumption-based billing. The regulations would prevent the rationing of expensive backbone bandwidth, and would therefore force ISPs to impost charges that would motivate users to "self-ration." There's no way around it, folks. Bandwidth costs money. A lot of money for smaller ISPs like mine ($100 per Mbps per month at wholesale). If we can't shape traffic and prohibit bandwidth hogging, we'll have to meter. | |
|  |  | | Re: If there are "net neutrality" regs, it will be necessary Net neutrality requires you to shape all the traffic at once, it doesn't require you to not traffic shape. All it does is prevent you from limiting microsoft out of existence and giving Ubuntu 100% QoS. | |
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 uther join:2001-12-04 Saint Louis, MO | The rich get richer... Just another shining example of big business doing whatever it wants to further their own profits at the expense of the general American population's expense.
We've bailed out banks... We've bailed out automobile industries... We're gonna bail out telecommunications/cable companies one way or another. In fact, we're going to bail out any big business that shares the same bed as government.
It'll keep going until big business has 100% of the money and we're left with nothing.
This is just another brick in the wall. Nothing is going to change. Get used to it.
Nothing more to see here, move on... | |
|  |  Sammer join:2005-12-22 Canonsburg, PA | Re: The rich get richer... said by uther:It'll keep going until big business has 100% of the money and we're left with nothing. This is just another brick in the wall. Nothing is going to change. Get used to it. Nothing more to see here, move on... Actually there is one more thing to see, our government already owes its soul (or at least its debt) to the Chinese so even big business will eventually be left with nothing. | |
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