9 Out Of 10 Fake Scientists Agree: Neutrality Means Job Losses Bret Swanson somehow brings neutrality debate down another notch The network neutrality debate has seen no limit of dumb arguments from both sides of the aisle. Since the argument really heated up in 2005 with AT&T CEO Ed Whitacre first clumsily explaining his dream of double dipping, it has been so warped by fuzzy logic, bad science, and spin that the "debate" today is little more than an ugly mess, dominated by professional distortionists and people in strange outfits. The tone and pace of the conversation is now largely dictated by lobbyists and think tankers for hire, who use a wide variety of incredibly sleazy tactics to try and win what now passes for honest debate on the subject of open networks and consumer rights. One of the biggest contributors to the ever-devolving quality of the discussion has been Bret Swanson, recently employed by a PR firm named the Discovery Institute. The Discovery Institute is responsible for such ideas as "intelligent design" (created by evangelical partisans to help sell creationism in the classroom) and the Exaflood (created by ISPs to try and convince the world the Internet will collapse if ISPs aren't allowed to cap, throttle, and overcharge consumers). Swanson is essentially a fake objective analyst for hire, who now does heavy lifting for major telecom carriers under the actually rather ironic name of Entropy Economics. Through bunk science and massaged statistics, Swanson gets quoted as an objective analyst in media outlets, informing the world that there really aren't any broadband problems. Swanson's latest masterpiece appeared this week over at the Huffington Post, where Swanson informs his readers that the FCC's effort to craft more tangible network neutrality guidelines for carriers will result in huge job losses: The FCC received an astonishing 100,000 individual comments on its Net Neutrality proposal and some 15,000 official filings from companies, trade associations, academics, and think tanks. Excluding the associations, academics, and individuals, we analyzed the company comments and discerned support for or opposition to Net Neutrality. We then tabulated the number of workers employed by these Supporters and Skeptics and found a huge disparity. Net Neutrality Supporters directly employ 148,936 workers. But Net Neutrality Skeptics employ 1,440,021, almost 10 times as many. So, Swanson's "science" here consisted of taking a count of those who submitted network neutrality comments to the FCC, then adding up how many people they employ to nebulously make a scary connection to job losses. Except one, there's no indication that the kind of wimpy and vaguely worded network neutrality guidelines the FCC is proposing will do much of anything, much less hurt employment. As it stands, the most the new rules will do with require that ISPs are simply clear about what kind of network management they're using. While there are layoffs in the telecom sector, they have nothing to do with network neutrality. Two, and more importantly, a huge number of companies and other firms that submitted comments to the FCC (including Swanson himself) were doing so under the guidance of companies like AT&T. Carriers like AT&T, Verizon and Comcast of course bombarded the FCC's inbox with anti-net-neutrality tirades themselves. So did all of these companies' hardware and networking vendor partners, who mirrored carrier positions against network neutrality because they'd like to keep getting paid. But carrier lobbyists also filed protests with the FCC under the guise of literally thousands of think tanks, fake consumer groups and even seemingly unrelated front organizations, including professional disc golf course designers (funded by AT&T) or even the " Arkansas Retired Seniors Coalition" (run by a former 30 year BellSouth PR rep). Adding up the total number of people employed by this orchestra of co-opted and AT&T-funded organizations shows nothing about employment or network neutrality, but it does say planety about how far companies like AT&T are willing to go to manipulate public opinion. Swanson knows his argument is empty, but assumes his readership is well-stocked with idiots. He even goes on to note that "one can't gauge Net Neutrality's overall desirability merely by who files FCC comments," yet proceeds to do just that. The rest of Swanson's argument is the same canned telecom industry arguments we've been debunking for half a decade, including the idea that neutrality protections would harm investment in networks, or that the neutrality debate is simply between huge telecom companies and huge, mean content companies like Google (which helps foster apathy among consumers unfamiliar with the debate). Swanson, like most hired telecom wonks, omits the fact that the idea of open networks -- or being able to use the applications and devices of your choice without ISP interference -- is something supported by a vast majority of consumers. Not everybody agrees that we need network neutrality regulations, of course. Many supporters of the concept argue that all you'd really need to protect open networks is persistent competition, but guess what: carriers object to any changes on that front as well. You'll notice that at no point does the Huffington Post highlight Swanson's connections to the telecom industry's biggest players (Swanson's tied to AT&T through the telco's funding of such "think tanks" as Digital Society, where Swanson is a "visiting fellow," and Arts and Labs). In fact, Huffington Post (or Swanson himself) doesn't even allow users to comment on the article, which conveniently prevents Swanson from actually having to defend his painfully-unscientific job loss "evidence."
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 camaro92Question everythingPremium join:2008-04-05 Westfield, MA Reviews:
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| And people wonder Why nothing ever changes,I think the isp's have figured it out finally, instead of trying to convince people that unless they get there way they just figured hey let's just confuse the majority of the public IE hard working people who just want a connection that works when they click there browser button,and just leave alone the net neutrality wackos who actually pay attention to what is going on around them. | |
|  |  | | Re: And people wonder I am fed up with these rich bigwig greedbags who want to take more and more and give us less and less.
Why do we need Net Neutarlity ? Because we consumers need to be protected from assholes.And if these companies were not assholes then we would never have heard the term net neutrality ever. | |
|  |  | | You're not alone- I live in Chicopee! Listen, Alex Jones (radio show) talks about this topic often; try calling him about it! | |
|  |  |  camaro92Question everythingPremium join:2008-04-05 Westfield, MA Reviews:
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| Re: And people wonder Unfortunately my other half bought me sirius sat. radio a few years after it came out so since then maybe 2002 i haven't listened to regular radio,but if he does talk about these issues maybe i will have to actually use my fm tuner for the first time on my head unit. | |
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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Consider the Converse While the article summary does expose the pseudo science used to falsly conclude that Net Neutrality leads to job losses, we should also analyze a similar argument that also is equally false:
Expanded broadband deployments lead to more jobs.
If this is true, then there should have never been any job losses during the 2001-02 and current recessions, as broadband deployments have indeed been expanding since the late 1990s into today. Since this is not the case, we should throw out the claim, and stop making public policy based on false information. -- "Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
|  |  | | Re: Consider the Converse said by pnh102:While the article summary does expose the pseudo science used to falsly conclude that Net Neutrality leads to job losses, we should also analyze a similar argument that also is equally false: Expanded broadband deployments lead to more jobs.
If this is true, then there should have never been any job losses during the 2001-02 and current recessions, as broadband deployments have indeed been expanding since the late 1990s into today. Since this is not the case, we should throw out the claim, and stop making public policy based on false information. This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost? | |
|  |  |  pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Re: Consider the Converse said by MightyPez:This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost? No. I am simply saying there is no causal relationship between broadband deployment and job growth. -- "Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
|  |  |  |  | | Re: Consider the Converse What data are you using to prove that? | |
|  |  |  |  |  pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Re: Consider the Converse said by MightyPez:What data are you using to prove that? I present the admittedly anecdotal evidence in my original post.
There are clearly more people who have broadband today than there were in the late 1990s. Since the late 1990s, we've had 2 recessions which have resulted in major job losses. But during both of these recessions, broadband deployments have continued. The jobs did not come back until the economy made a full recovery, which had little if anything to do with broadband deployment. -- "Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Consider the Converse Again, I ask, why is broadband deployment, in your opinion, suppose to prop up other industries losing jobs? Perhaps more jobs *were* created in the broadband industry. That would stand to reason, anyway. More central offices, nodes, help desk personnel, etc.
Are people claiming greater broadband deployment is suppose to raise job levels as a whole? | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Re: Consider the Converse said by MightyPez:Again, I ask, why is broadband deployment, in your opinion, suppose to prop up other industries losing jobs? I did not claim this. I claimed that the notion that broadband deployment leads to more jobs is false. -- "Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Consider the Converse But you're not saying how. You are saying overall jobs are being lost, but that doesn't mean jobs weren't created. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium join:2002-05-02 Mount Airy, MD | Re: Consider the Converse said by MightyPez:You are saying overall jobs are being lost, but that doesn't mean jobs weren't created. I am?
All I am claiming is that there is no relationship between the two items. -- "Net Neutrality" zealots - the people you can thank for your capped Internet service. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Consider the Converse said by pnh102:If this is true, then there should have never been any job losses during the 2001-02 and current recessions, as broadband deployments have indeed been expanding since the late 1990s into today. This is what you said. Reading it just says "Jobs were lost in the recession, so deploying broadband doesn't create jobs. You qualified it in no way. I have no idea what you are trying to say because it's a broad and non-descript thing to say. Especially when looking at Funchords data saying jobs were indeed created. | |
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| Re: Consider the Converse Again, you know, if people want to make points one way or the other they can introduce actual science....
This country allows the guy who yells louder to dictate what the reality is for some reason. The data is the data. I imagine in some instances there are deployment projects that result in job creation. I imagine in other instances there are deployment projects that wind up being money black holes... | |
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 |  |  |  |  |  | | Ouch pnh. Looks like mightypez just burned you. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: Consider the Converse I'm not trying to cause a problem. I'm not an industry insider and have about as much economics training as it takes to invest in a company fund, but saying jobs were lost in the recession so we shouldn't deploy broadband is making my head spin. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  DesdinovaPremium join:2003-01-26 Gaithersburg, MD | Re: Consider the Converse What I get from pnh's statement is that he's using the statement as an example of the difference between corellation and causation, something many folks confuse. | |
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 |  |  |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Yarmouth Port, MA kudos:5 | said by pnh102:said by MightyPez:This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that since broadband expanded during these times, the net job gains for this one industry would create more jobs than all the other industries lost? No. I am simply saying there is no causal relationship between broadband deployment and job growth. There are construction costs, that's causal. But after that, there are the after-effects. In an area that has broadband, tech jobs can live and tech-enabled businesses can get advantage. The area is more attractive to live and work in, thus there is an economic advantage over those areas without broadband. Two-thirds of Americans subscribe to broadband, and it's now a huge incentive next to "good schools" and "low taxes."
Work and life is easier with the Internet. It's crazy to think that doesn't translate into jobs.
Headlines: US House Blocks Internet Taxes for 4 More Years, as Private Studies Prove Web Commerce Driving US Economy »www.ibls.com/internet_law_news_p···testnews More Internet Equals More Jobs: Reviving the Economy with Broadband »www.thewip.net/contributors/2009···obs.html
And the guys that came up with that statistic that one percent of additional deployment creates 300,000 jobs, recently said this:
We last examined the economic impact of broadband on the economy and on employment in 2001 and 2003. As it turns out, many of our previous predictions were too pessimistic. We underestimated the growth of broadband -- its reach, the applications that it made possible, and the reductions in price of access in the first decade of the 21st century. The increasing availability, improved speed, and lower price of high-speed Internet services that has resulted from the continuing massive investment in broadband infrastructure has had a predictable effect on household subscriptions. The Pew organization’s household surveys show that the share of households subscribing to broadband Internet services has risen from 47 percent in 2007 to nearly 65 percent at the end of 2009, substantially above our 2003 estimate.
The indirect benefits of broadband are perhaps even more significant: Smart young programmers creating new “apps” for smartphones; academic institutions utilizing ever faster broadband to enhance the educational experience; health care personnel being able to deliver world-class medical services to underserved regions domestically and globally; and, businesses being able to order, manufacture, market and distribute their products from anywhere to anywhere. We could not have anticipated many of these developments in 2003; we surely cannot foresee all of the benefits of continuing improvements in broadband services that will occur in the next few years as network companies continue to upgrade their infrastructure. (and these guys aren't necessarily friendly to some of the line-sharing or structural separation ideas that some NN-folk like, but they recognize that broadband means jobs.) -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL Tweet! Tweet! -- »twitter.com/funchords | |
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 ThrowDemsOutIf you can't convince 'em, confuse 'emPremium join:2002-03-03 Mullica Hill, NJ kudos:4 | Self-fulfilling prophecy ?
The major ISPs that would be involved in investing in expanding broadband and hiring new workers for that expansion are the ones railing against net neutrality. If, as a result of an aggressive net neutrality being forced upon them, they decide to cut back on new investment and expansion and cutting back on new hires, doesn't that then become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
In other words, the ISPs can actually make happen what they predict will happen if aggressive net neutrality legislation is passed. Will they actually do that, of course, is up for debate. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face and depress profits out of pique. They would actually have to believe that playing along with the new laws would hurt profits to make them stop new investments. | |
|  1 edit | NN = Big Business not Consumers To all the Sheep out there,
NN is big business fight over the pipes and who pays to carry Internet traffic. Internet traffic funding models have drastically changed over the years and all content has consolidated into a very few players that have arbitraged for free or below-cost transit/peering rates. They want to keep it that way which shifts the cost of end to end content delivery to the consumers (a little thing they don't want anyone to talk about so expect my post to be attacked)
The genius of this is while the very few content players shifts all the cost to carry video traffic growth to the ISP (in-turn the flat rate consumer), they blame the ISPs and lobby for a non-existent situation of blocking their traffic to generate consumer outrage. | |
|  |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers ALL internet traffic is paid for at what the valued rate is, what companies like google prove with the rates they get is that Bandwidth is worth less then what the shills say it is. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
|  |  |  1 edit | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers said by Kearnstd:ALL internet traffic is paid for at what the valued rate is How is value calculated? If I force my content through a congested path which causes customer complaints (and costs the ISP money) or through an international traffic path which costs the ISP even more $$ to bring in country, so I can "negotiate" free peering with that ISP.... is that "calculating value?"
Remember.. things that cost money are never "free". Getting it for free just shifts where the funding comes from. Free to Google = $$ from consumers. | |
|  |  |  |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Yarmouth Port, MA kudos:5 | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers said by yt:Remember.. things that cost money are never "free". Getting it for free just shifts where the funding comes from. Free to Google = $$ from consumers. Hardly. If a content provider like Google pays to get a line to the exchange, there's only one thing left to decide:
1 - Hook it up to a transit provider's box, where the bits will travel approximately 5 feet across the gateway into an ISP (and be charged to the ISP and the content provider). OR
2 - Hook it up to the ISP's box, where the bits don't cross a transit provider's network and nobody has to pay the transit provider anything.
** THIS IS IMPORTANT **
In both cases, 1 & 2, the ISP still pays for the equipment getting the bits to the last mile, and that is still the same amount of equipment carrying the same amount of traffic.
In both cases, 1 & 2, the content provider still pays (in equipment or transit or both) to get the bits to the exchange.
Robb -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- District of Columbia -- KJ7RL Tweet! Tweet! -- »twitter.com/funchords | |
|  |  |  |  |  3 edits | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers said by funchords:1 - Hook it up to a transit provider's box, where the bits will travel approximately 5 feet across the gateway into an ISP (and be charged to the ISP and the content provider). OR This tactic is used as arbitrage. If you don't peer with me, bad ISP C will give me your routes for $2 (lower than your costs to carry) as it only costs them a router hop vs your 500-1000 miles. (more costs). Depeering is less of an option in these situations due to the public impact. This is why peering is broken
said by funchords:2 - Hook it up to the ISP's box, where the bits don't cross a transit provider's network and nobody has to pay the transit provider anything. All providers these days are also transit providers and fund capital growth on Internet revenues. They peer with "peers" and balance the costs/trade of carrying traffic to respective parts of the Internet. Most growth based transit revenues go away with the oligopolists content arbitrage pushing to the consumer.
This is more than "cut out the middleman." This is remove the transit business and two party funding model to a single payer system based on flat fee vs growth based.
Think beyond the rhetoric and NN positioning.
said by funchords: ** THIS IS IMPORTANT ** In both cases, 1 & 2, the ISP still pays for the equipment getting the bits to the last mile, and that is still the same amount of equipment carrying the same amount of traffic. Equipment is similar, but now capital is increased as the cost to deliver bits on the content side went from variable with growth (which originally funded the ISP capital) to zero and the consumer doesn't pay any more as they are flat fee.
said by funchords:In both cases, 1 & 2, the content provider still pays (in equipment or transit or both) to get the bits to the exchange. In #1 they pay below the cost to deliver end to end (as ISP C only has a router port) and in #2 they get unlimited free bandwidth moving all growth costs to the consumer. | |
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 |  |  | | said by Kearnstd:ALL internet traffic is paid for at what the valued rate is, what companies like google prove with the rates they get is that Bandwidth is worth less then what the shills say it is. The OP seems to be ranting on about Settlement Free Interconnect (SFI) or peering. The poster is making it out like the content providers gain all the benefits and the providers get none from SFI, but that is simple false. -- Kilroy was here | |
|  |  |  |  2 edits | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers said by NetAdmin1:The poster is making it out like the content providers gain all the benefits and the providers get none from SFI, but that is simple false. Smaller Tier 2 and Tier 3 providers benefit from peering with initial transit savings. That said, this benefit is only for the current traffic. They are still concerned about the cost of unlimited free growth to their flat-fee end subscribers.
So... SOME providers MAY get TEMPORARY benefit from peering, but the peering world was built on a balance of trade or traffic ratios. ISPs sells transit to their network and their Internet peers. Their peers do the same back essentially sharing the balance of the equal networks costs. | |
|  |  |  |  |  | | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers One more time please, in coherent English? -- Kilroy was here | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  4 edits | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers Here is the fundamental peering issue.
With content consolidating down to a very few delivery players, that have enormous arbitrage capabilities, it allows content to strong arm "negotiate" very bad peering relationships with most all ISPs. This reduces their overall transit costs approaching zero. This in turn allows them to substantially increase their output of content at higher and higher levels.
GREAT!! This is REALLY REALLY GREAT!!! Or is it mostly beneficial for Content and may have Consumer impact?
Now the question.... With all content transit costs going to zero... where is the capital funding coming from to grow the network infrastructure to support this? Are capital costs going to zero? Are users paying / bit or more? No. Capital reduces some over time, but no where near zero and user speeds are going up. While there is some precedent for transit costs going down and capital costs / performance getting better, the major change in content consolidation does warrant some economic concern and review.
Transit is not just about a middleman, it is a part of the overall funding model for Internet traffic. Peering works only when there is a balance of trade and a two party funding system. Removal of those economics remove a capital funding source for Internet growth.
In the end, everyone peering moves all the network growth costs to the consumer. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  1 edit | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers said by yt:In the end, everyone peering moves all the network growth costs to the consumer. Consumers, those who purchase internet access and other services from providers, already pay those costs. Over-subscription makes those costs lower than they would be if each customer had to pay a port fee like businesses and DIA customers, but consumers are paying for the infrastructure.
To put in succinctly, your premise is flawed.
Additionally, if providers did not peer, they still have to use capital for equipment and capacity upgrades as more content is made available and consumed. The only difference is that they still have to transport too, so their costs are greater. -- Kilroy was here | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  1 edit | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers I can see that you believe my premise is flawed as you are missing the basics of true end to end Internet economics.
Consumers pay a flat fee for 1/2 of the Internet costs. Historically content paid for the other 1/2 on a 98%ile peak Mb so growth is factored in.
Providers peer as they have balanced traffic and large network infrastructures. Content is far out of balance and mostly edge delivery which is why historically they paid for transit. If one 1/2 of the funding equation goes away, the other 1/2 picks up the costs. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers said by yt:I can see that you believe my premise is flawed as you are missing the basics of true end to end Internet economics. I doubt your grasp of the costs and economics of networks and the internet is as good as you think.
Consumers pay a flat fee for 1/2 of the Internet costs. Historically content paid for the other 1/2 on a 98%ile peak Mb so growth is factored in.
Providers peer as they have balanced traffic and large network infrastructures. Content is far out of balance and mostly edge delivery which is why historically they paid for transit. If one 1/2 of the funding equation goes away, the other 1/2 picks up the costs. No, that is not the case.
Access providers usually never receive any of the costs associated with allowing the content providers access to the users on the network. Content providers usually do not use access providers for transit, typically relying on one or more of the "Tier 1" ASes because doing so allows access to more provider networks at once. So the argument that the one half of the costs for the content provider disappeared while the other half remained with the access provider is gibberish.
Additionally, billing has historically been 95 percentile, never 98th percentile.
For the sake of clarity, here is a real world example...
If ISP A and Content Provider A both connect to Transit Provider A, then both ISP A and Content Provider A are paying for transit. Now let us say that ISP A and Content Provider A both notice that they exchange large amounts of traffic, on the order of several dozen megabits, or even gigabits. With that much traffic passing through the transit provider, often billed at the 95th percentile, the megabits or gigabits impact the transit costs of both organizations.
Now, say that both ISP A and Content Provider A draft an SFI agreement, meaning that they directly peer with each other, and all of the megabits and gigabits between them bypass Transit Provider A, then the traffic that once cost them money by flowing through Transit Provider A no longer costs either company money. Additionally, the peering link also improves network performance (lower hop counts, lower latency, easuer troubleshooting, etc.) and redundancy (since transits links remain and are available for fail over). Both the Content Provider and the ISP see a reduction in transit costs while seeing an improvement in the network.
Finally, SFI agreements are legal agreements that have to be reached mutually between two companies. Organizations are routinely denied SFI agreements because the benefits to one company outweigh the benefits of the other. SFI agreements are typically formed only when both companies see a benefit. So in other words, if SFI agreements are so bad for access providers, why then do those same providers actively work for agreements with content providers or even other access providers? If they negatively affected the cash flow of the company, then wouldn't it be logical to assume they would either not form agreements or would cancel any existing agreements? Because SFI agreements are so successful clearly demonstrates that the cost shifting idea is a myth.
Peering is not a cost shifting scheme, rather a quid pro quo, in which both providers see reduced transit costs and improved network topologies. Even with uneven traffic ratio between a site like Youtube and your local provider, this still holds true. -- Kilroy was here | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  3 edits | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers You are thinking small pure access providers. While peering may help them in the short run, the long term strategy is flawed due to growth costs (this has been explained). Look a bit more at the BGP data on how content is connected to major networks (I no longer call them access or transit as this is blurred these days). You will find that the old views of IXPs and Tier1s is outdated.
Using your example.... (Cogent|XO|TATA|BT|AT&T|Comcast|Verizon|DTAG|Rogers) and Limelight are connected to (Cogent|XO|TATA|BT|AT&T|Comcast|Verizon|DTAG|Rogers). Initially, only LL is paying for transit as the other access+network providers have peering with a relatively balance traffic pattern and equal cost burden of carrying bits more than 6 meters.
LL arbitrages the ISPs off each other as I described in another post. Where each of these ISPs were receiving revenue from a balance of customers like LLNW and other major content sources that now goes away over time with consolidation into an oligopoly.
You are correct that peering with peers is not cost shifting. Peering with content IS cost shifting as it is not quid pro quo for the ISP. The $$'s go away, but the costs don't.
Things have changed my friend.... | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers What a load of bull poop (or maybe SHEEP poop in your case).
Your very first statement "all content has consolidated into a very few players" is nonsense, but you base all of your subsequent argument on it. What "few players" are you referring to? There are certainly a few BIG content providers, but as always, there are a ton of smaller ones too.
Your arbitrage description is more nonsense. The costs for "Bad ISP C" to carry your traffic will be at least equal to if not greater than the costs for the larger ISP who turned you down for peering. If "Bad ISP C" keeps carrying customers like you, eventually their balance of traffic with their own peering partners will get out of kilter and "Bad ISP C" will have to start paying for transit themselves instead of getting free peering. They'll be paying the provider that turned you down for free peering in the first place. It all works out in the end!
Digging through your confusing rhetoric ("peering with content"???), your main point seems to be that companies who control both content and transport are changing the dynamics of the broadband market. I can only think of 2 - Google and Comcast, but I don't think they could accurately be referred to as "oligopolists". While they certainly may find it easier to get better peering arrangements for themselves, I doubt they will single-handedly change the entire Internet peering infrastructure.
I wouldn't have bothered reply to this post, but "to all the sheep out there" and "this has been explained" triggered my pretentiousness sensor. | |
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  4 edits | Re: NN = Big Business not Consumers said by Supervisor:Your very first statement " all content has consolidated into a very few CDN players" is nonsense, but you base all of your subsequent argument on it. What " few players" are you referring to? There are certainly a few BIG content providers, but as always, there are a ton of smaller ones too. Yes there are many smaller ones, but there has never been a time in the Internet history that this much content has consolidated into only a few players. AND all that content is removing their side of network costs funding by forcing peering.
From the NY Times quote: hyper giants like Limelight, Facebook, Google, Microsoft and YouTube now generate and consume a disproportionate 30 percent of all Internet traffic, the researchers noted.
NOTE: The original data quoted does not list Facebook and the NY Times author is missing the fact that Google and Youtube are the same company.
said by Supervisor:Your arbitrage description is more nonsense. The costs for " Bad ISP C" to carry your traffic will be at least equal to if not greater than the costs for the larger ISP who turned you down for peering. I've answered this question at least once above. Network costs of end to end (e.g. 1000KMs) vs 1 router port from the content customer of "Bad ISP" to their peer that has to carry it all the way. This is very different and not "equal to if not greater". I also did not specific size as "larger". There are also situations where a "larger" ISP will exploit a peering relationship of a smaller ISP with imbalanced traffic.
said by Supervisor:If " Bad ISP C" keeps carrying customers like you, eventually their balance of traffic with their own peering partners will get out of kilter and " Bad ISP C" will have to start paying for transit themselves instead of getting free peering. They'll be paying the provider that turned you down for free peering in the first place. It all works out in the end! I see you have not been exposed to large ISP peering arrangements. It is not as simple as, "we are imbalanced so you now need to pay me". I've tried to explain the arbitrage issue with facts around how financial, costs, customer and even NN pressures come into play around this, but I guess you are not getting it or trying to downplay the issue with insults and dismissals for a reason. You are coming into a buried news discussion fairly late.... | |
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 |  KearnstdElf WizardPremium join:2002-01-22 Mullica Hill, NJ | but i will agree NN=Big Business but in a difference sense, it will allow a big business in pushing entertainment online and making it more accessable. well once the content owners get it through their skulls the internet is not some big evil demon that steals their wallets like they where in Camden. -- [65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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 | | Swanson is total BS To gauge the possible fallout of new Net Neutrality regulation, we looked at what Internet industry companies were saying. The FCC received an astonishing 100,000 individual comments on its Net Neutrality proposal and some 15,000 official filings from companies, trade associations, academics, and think tanks. Excluding the associations, academics, and individuals, we analyzed the company comments and discerned support for or opposition to Net Neutrality. We then tabulated the number of workers employed by these Supporters and Skeptics and found a huge disparity.
Whether net neutrality is good or bad, the logic Swanson expresses above seems totally fallacious. Somebody help me name specific latin/greek phrase that summarizes Swanson's reasoning. Its also a statistical analysis on a non-random sample. | |
|  | | His Entire Premise is Stupid First, it is an FCC docket where the companies who are directly impacted by the proposed regulations are much more likely to file. So his sample certainly doesn't include all of the pro-net neutrality businesses who will be impacted by a closed Internet.
Second, it is a stupid apples to oranges comparison anyways. Telecom companies are by definition a very labor intensive industry, while Web, software, and applications companies are not. This is that little concept called "efficiency" that supposedly is supposed to be something we should all care about.
Third, Swanson neglects to mention that ever since the FCC gutted the telecom act and allowed massive mergers, telco jobs have been cut dramatically. Now some of this is due to efficiencies (fiber is cheaper to maintain than copper), but some of it is due to the nature of the business. This is not something net neutrality will have any impact on.
Fourth, Swanson and his ilk always neglect to mention that the entire point his paymasters want to kill net neutrality is so they can profit from creating artificial bandwidth scarcities. The entire point of their opposition to openness is so they can reduce cap ex and operating expenses.
Fifth, Swanson is a coward for not even allowing comments on his Huffington Post, though since they are author-moderated, it is doubtful he would let any contrarian comments in anyways.
AT&T is really getting desperate in their shilling. | |
|  | | Time for a new perspective It's time for governments to look at broadband costs the same way they look at the cost of fuels for transportation, as a drag on the economy. Faster, cheaper transportation means more of the money spent on goods goes to the producers of those goods.
ISPs, like gasoline companies and the highways/roads provide a vital service to transport digital goods like video, music, software, photos, and written content. If consumers can spend less of their money on the transportation of these goods, they will have more money left over to spend on the goods.
If neutrality results faster and cheaper bandwidth, there will be more money to spend on the creation of content. More money means more jobs, just not for the greedy telecos that fight tooth and nail to keep us from getting the equivalent of paved roads. Arguing that someone doesn't need more than 3mbps is like arguing that dirt roads are sufficient. | |
|  |  |  | | Re: The most irritating thing about this Debate.... ...ss that the Huffington Post has closed comments on this piece of garbage...looks like nobody commented anyhow unless they zero out when they close a topic | |
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 | | Nebulous? "...taking a count of those who submitted network neutrality comments to the FCC, then adding up how many people they employ to nebulously make a scary connection to job losses. "
Doesn't sound nebulous to me. Recent projections say wired comm. companies are among those who will have the highest number of job losses in the future...piss off the exec's while you're at it and it doesn't sound too bright. Incidentally, since when do corp exec's need a *good* reason for layoffs?
internet service providers | |
|  |  pnjunctionTeksavvy ExtremePremium join:2008-01-24 Toronto, ON kudos:1 Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
2 edits | Re: Nebulous?http://i.dslr.net/v2/lite/thumbsdown.gif Why should we care about pissing off execs if they don't need a reason for the layoffs anyways.
You want to cater to their every whim in hopes that they'll maintain employment because of their improved mood? Hahaha.
They'll fire people whenever they think it will help their bottom line regardless. It would be retarded to make concessions on the premise that they'll do any different.
The real argument would be whether NN will actually force them to cut jobs and I think that is BS. They want to trash NN because building faster higher-capacity networks costs money (and takes lots of workers) while sitting back and double-dipping on your current crappy network has KILLER profit margins.
I would say it is the opposite, that moving to a neutered non-neutral internet will result in much fewer jobs. They could fire almost everybody who works to make the network better and just hire a few more bean-counters to help count the insane amounts of money they'd be making.
Getting rid of net neutrality is all about less service and less choice for more money. | |
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 | | Gov Internet Do we really want the gov to get involved? Gov has never done anything right and this could get messy real quick, makes you wounder why Al Gore is for it now doudt it. Gov has made a mess of everything they touch | |
|  |  ARGONAUTgot ping? join:2006-01-24 New Albany, IN 2 edits | Re: Gov Internet 
If the ISPs want it then the default answer should always be "no". | |
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 |  3 edits | Ad hominem The above article is nothing but one long ad hominem fallacy; it claims that the truth or falsehood of assertions or arguments depends upon who made them and completely fails to refute them. (Which is not surprising, because they are actually valid.) It's also a direct personal attack.
If it weren't posted by DSL Reports' own staff, the article above would likely be a good candidate to be taken down as a content-free, direct personal attack. Alas, the moderators probably won't do that to one of their fellow employees. | |
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