 bt join:2009-02-26 canada kudos:1 Reviews:
·Start Communicat..
| Oh, but the CUSTOMER is responsible for accuracy! Never mind that most customers wouldn't even know where to begin tracking their own usage. And even when you do track your own usage, the ISP can just stone-wall you with "our meters are accurate, yours must be wrong" until you do something like physically disconnect the modem for a few days and have usage show up (and record the process sufficiently to act as documented evidence).
But hey, the customers will keep them honest - right? | |
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 |  | | Re: Oh, but the CUSTOMER is responsible for accuracy! I had to do this very thing with Rogers this past month. Suddenly they tacked on 18 gigs of data use in the final 48 hours of my billing cycle. I had never, ever exceeded my cap (60gb) before. Suddenly I was 11 gigs over and to be billed $22 for the excess. I argued it, they of course said their equipment was accurate and I had to be wrong.
So I disconnected the modem entirely for 3 days... and when I reconnected, there was still useage. When i called and put this fact before them, they couldn't explain it, instead repeatedly asking me how I disconnected my modem.. was I sure I disconnected it, and so on. They gave up on trying to charge me for the excess. I still have no answer from them as to how their system tacked on 18 gigs in 48 hours when my typically daily use is less than 1 gig on a weekday (since I'm rarely home during the week), and at most, highest ever, 6 gigs on Christmas day. | |
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 | | DD-WRT Works Well.. I've got DD-WRT's latest firmware on my router. Allows me to see current bandwidth being used on all interfaces, as well as keeping a daily/monthly WAN log. I'm fairly certain that if it can be done for consumer routers, ISP's can easily find a solution for themselves to track the bandwidth consumed. | |
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 |  2 edits | Re: DD-WRT Works Well.. said by IrishBastard:I've got DD-WRT's latest firmware on my router. Allows me to see current bandwidth being used on all interfaces, as well as keeping a daily/monthly WAN log. I'm fairly certain that if it can be done for consumer routers, ISP's can easily find a solution for themselves to track the bandwidth consumed. When the telco deliberately causes dropped packets and retries as part of their speed throttling, and drops content based on it coming from a source they 'disapprove' (read: you didn't buy it from them), just where do you measure the bytes? What about the bytes that are part and parcel of the normal IP protocol that aren't related to user consumption? Should I be billed for those too? | |
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 |  |  | | Re: DD-WRT Works Well.. End user modems should have the ability to report how much is being sent into the consumer network. I'm not familiar with the specifics of how it could/might be done, but fairly certain the ability exists. If properly done (read: ISP's don't mess with it in their favor), then it should be able to properly report bandwidth sent back and forth from modem to users network. Will there be overhead, of course, but theres no getting away from that. There's no perfect solution, but there's close to it... | |
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 |  knightmbEverybody Lies join:2003-12-01 Franklin, TN | said by IrishBastard:I've got DD-WRT's latest firmware on my router. Allows me to see current bandwidth being used on all interfaces, as well as keeping a daily/monthly WAN log. I'm fairly certain that if it can be done for consumer routers, ISP's can easily find a solution for themselves to track the bandwidth consumed. I run two ISP and it's a piece of cake to track usage down to the bit. Plenty of free software and a 10 year old PC can do this for thousands of people at one point. The only reason they can't do it is because they hired the wrong sales people that promised they could with whatever inferior product they were sold I would imagine.  -- Fight Insight Ready (Was NebuAD) and the like: Click Here to pollute their data | |
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 |  |  patcat88 join:2002-04-05 Jamaica, NY kudos:1 | Re: DD-WRT Works Well.. The ISP's system probably measures MPLS frames or even SS7 frames, not IP packets. Thats the problem lol | |
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 | | We were measuring metres, not bytes Nobody ensure the meters work or are accurate.
Industry Canada's own division responsible for the accuracy of all sorts of devices used in commerce, (scales, gas pumps, etc...) have washed their hands of this by saying that no industrialized country does this hence neither should they.
There is no public disclosure of exactly what Bell actual methodology is. For all we know they could be measuring leap furlongs per long hundredweight, multiplying that by the length of the chord through the Earth's core from 93.9277829 degrees West, 44.793802003 degrees North, and then dividing the result by George Cope's shoe size. | |
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 |  | | Re: We were measuring metres, not bytes There is no dividing in Bell's math, just multiplying. Make numbers bigger than they really are. Per GB charges, how many GB you use, dividing's the tougher math, multiplying is easy, so why not just multiply everything to see revenue grow. | |
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 |  |  cdruGo ColtsPremium,MVM join:2003-05-14 Fort Wayne, IN kudos:7 | Re: We were measuring metres, not bytes said by markf:dividing's the tougher math, multiplying is easy You do realize that division is just multiplying a reciprocal, right? | |
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 | | Oh the irony isn't it ironic that the whole key to what Bell is pushing for (UBB) is based on a meter they admit is broken? | |
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 |  | | Re: Oh the irony Isn't it funny that the Meter just happens to be broken in their favor. | |
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 |  |  n2jtx join:2001-01-13 Glen Head, NY | Re: Oh the irony said by CableDude60 :Isn't it funny that the Meter just happens to be broken in their favor. Just like at the supermarket. The price is never in the customers favor.
I will probably fall off my chair if I see a report that an ISP was found to be undercharging customers. -- I support the right to keep and arm bears. | |
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 |  |  |  GbcueP.E.Premium join:2001-09-30 Santa Rosa, CA kudos:8 | Re: Oh the irony said by n2jtx:said by CableDude60 :Isn't it funny that the Meter just happens to be broken in their favor. Just like at the supermarket. The price is never in the customers favor. I will probably fall off my chair if I see a report that an ISP was found to be undercharging customers. There is significant oversight for over-charging. -- My Blog 2.2 | |
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 PhilRojo SolPremium join:2001-06-11 Downers Grove, IL kudos:2 | Who watches the watchers!? | |
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 | | Tracking usage with router That was my solution and I found my ISP's tracking system to be wrong. These days, better trust your own measuring equipment than that of the ISP. | |
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 |  JoeOnSunsetDoublethink Is Doubleplus Ungood.Premium join:2002-11-25 Ormond Beach, FL | Re: Tracking usage with router But if the ISP's measurement is wrong, and that's what they're using to bill you, then your accurate tool doesn't really help you. I guess except to use as evidence in disputing your overage charges. Good luck there. | |
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 jjoshuaPremium join:2001-06-01 Scotch Plains, NJ kudos:3 Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| What, exactly, counts as download? If the bytes don't get past my firewall, do I get charged for them?
Unsolicited traffic is beyond your control. If you're going to be charged by the byte, then you're only responsible for the bytes that you want, not the bytes that others send. | |
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 |  | | Re: What, exactly, counts as download? That's a good point. What if someone or a group of people have an axe to grind, so they just start DDoSing you, resulting in huge overages, for traffic that you never requested? | |
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 |  brad join:2007-09-06 Etobicoke, ON | said by jjoshua:If the bytes don't get past my firewall, do I get charged for them?
Unsolicited traffic is beyond your control. If you're going to be charged by the byte, then you're only responsible for the bytes that you want, not the bytes that others send. Yes. It's not about what you want or do not want. It's what traffic goes across your connection. That's the way it is whether you like it or not. | |
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 heat84Bit Torrent Apologist join:2004-03-11 Fort Lauderdale, FL | I'm not buying crooked tracking. Users who have only used a few gigs are suddenly being told they've well-exceeded their 25 GB monthly limit. All of this again raises the question of who exactly outside of the ISPs is ensuring meters are accurate and the the answer is: nobody.
Whether it be with a router or software, consumers can track bandwidth usage themselves. And I think enough consumers are smart enough to do that to keep the ISP's honest. I'm not supporting metered usage or apologizing for ISP's in anyway. I just think in this case they're being honest and if they're not, they won't get away with it.
Unless they're only being honest with consumers that are smart enough and gouging the rest. They wouldn't be that diabolical would they? -- Bit Torrent is my DVR. | |
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 jjoshuaPremium join:2001-06-01 Scotch Plains, NJ kudos:3 | n/m n/m. dupe post. | |
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 fireflierCoffee. . .Need CoffeePremium join:2001-05-25 Limbo | Would the beneficiary make a difference in repair speed? I have to wonder how quickly Bell would have this "metering" issue resolved if the inaccuracy was to the customer's benefit and not the other way around? -- Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com | |
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 RobIn Deo speramus.Premium join:2001-08-25 Kendall, FL kudos:3 | Funny how it's always over.. never under. I've never heard of a company accidentally undercharging a customer, but always overcharging. | |
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 |  | | Re: Funny how it's always over.. never under. said by Rob:I've never heard of a company accidentally undercharging a customer, but always overcharging. We've made mistakes both ways in the past. We typically end up eating back charges and refunding over charges. -- MNSi Internet - »www.mnsi.net | |
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 |  |  DarkLogixTexan and ProudPremium join:2008-10-23 Baytown, TX kudos:3 | Re: Funny how it's always over.. never under. ya you undercharge and the customer is happy and doesn't say a word for fear that they'll get bit in the ***
but if you overcharge then your going to hear it and it will be yelled from the mountain tops | |
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 |  |  LinklistPremium join:2002-03-03 Longport, NJ kudos:5 | said by HeadSpinning:said by Rob:I've never heard of a company accidentally undercharging a customer, but always overcharging. We've made mistakes both ways in the past. We typically end up eating back charges and refunding over charges. Undercharging undoubtedly happens. But who would complain. | |
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 amungusPremium join:2004-11-26 America Reviews:
·KCH Cable
·AT&T DSL Service
| Nice Sure, sign me up for a service by which actual charges apply, IF that means my bill could be $5/mo. but not higher than $50 for 500GB. At that rate, we're talking what, about $.10/GB? My bill should be rather small, even at 250GB of use.......
A compromise between flat rate and per GB billing would be tiers of cost per GB. To be ultimately "fair" - As soon as you hit the next tier, the lower price kicks in.
You'd pay, say $.24/GB up to 200GB (basing this on Cox's cap of 200GB @ $47/mo. - actual price per GB would be .235, but I rounded up for simplicity).
Soon as you go past that, the cost per GB drops to $.10. Say you use 500GB, that's $47 for the first 200, then $.10/GB afterwards, which would be $30 extra, for a total of $77/mo.
Now, say you don't use that 200GB, why pay $47? Why not slash the "base" rate down to what it really takes to have that connection active, like a power line, or a water line is "active" - let's say $5 (plus the $.24/GB up to 200GB, then $.10/GB after)  | |
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 EUSKill cancerPremium join:2002-09-10 canada Reviews:
·voip.ms
| All Usage monies to a trust fund With the consumer and bell as trustees. They are not entitled to any monies until they can pass metering audits. Or forget the trust, no monies out of pocket until the above is met. UBB: What a load. -- ~ Project Hope ~ | |
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 |  | | Re: All Usage monies to a trust fund I have been saying that for years, and is a reason i was against usage based billing. i have a program called netlimiter that i have been using to track my usage, and bell always have quota than i do, and not a small one. but by a about ten gigs, and going by their usage fees, that is about 20 dollars on some plans. they knew this going through with this whole ubb bullshit, and didn't say nothing, so we would have been tripple charged, with this new anouncement we would have had to pay inaccurae meter charged,the charge for a busted meter what a joke, they just want an excuse to go back into the unlimited market, as their plan didn't work and now they want to hold on to the fleeing customers. | |
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 ropeguruPremium join:2001-01-25 Mechanicsville, VA | Only one way for this to work.. And that is a set of standards as to what is considered and what isn't along with a customer premise device that measures what actually goes through the INTERNAL interface and does not measure anything on the external.
Everyone wants to use the analogy of water and power for usage based billing. I have seen no one bring up the fact that on both, there is equipment at each customer's site to measure what is being used. Additionally, for both water and power, if they try to send me something I did not request, it does not get counted against me.
Edit:
And to add to the customer premise device, this device need to be able to be configured by the end user. For example, if I do not have VoIP in my house, why should I have to pay for bits being sent to my IP from China trying to scan port 5060? | |
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 |  | | Re: Only one way for this to work.. said by ropeguru:why should I have to pay for bits being sent to my IP from China trying to scan port 5060?
+1000 | |
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·TekSavvy DSL
| said by ropeguru:For example, if I do not have VoIP in my house, why should I have to pay for bits being sent to my IP from China trying to scan port 5060? With the delayed IPV6 transition, your ISP may end up giving you a NAT'ed RFC1918 address, which will "protect you from unsolicited packets". | |
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 | | Broken Meter Why does the metering always over-charge and never under-charges? Because if it under-charged they would fix it immediately! | |
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 |  | | Re: Broken Meter Would everyone just stop worrying? It will all be fixed in two billing cycles! | |
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 |  |  MarkAWBarry WhitePremium join:2001-08-27 Canada kudos:16 | Re: Broken Meter said by Buckeyest :Would everyone just stop worrying? It will all be fixed in two billing cycles! Whos worried if it never gets fixed even better, it will just be something else we can hold over bells head in 60 days. | |
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 |  GbcueP.E.Premium join:2001-09-30 Santa Rosa, CA kudos:8 | Re: Been using Networx (free) said by WHT:http://www.softperfect.com/products/networx/ So how do I install this on my Western Digital HDTV Live Plus or Xbox360, Wii, PS3? -- My Blog 2.2 | |
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 | | Not just accurate metering but *WHAT* is metered. Supposedly, the meters also reflect:
- Packets to initiate and complete DNS lookups - Packets sent/received simply to establish a connection to a remote site - Packets involved in other system/connection 'overhead'. - Packets to do things like e-mail spam filtering lookups. - Packets resent due to corruption or data collision log-jams anywhere on the network. - Packets sent by all the background 'data snooping/tracking' done by web bugs and third party trackers on web pages like DoubleClick and Facebook. - Packets that carry all the unwanted ads, disclaimers, unparsed or redunant HTML or XML code. (Look at an email generated by MS bloatware sometime, or the 20 or so Kb of boilerplate added by Yahoo to group messages). - Packets carrying spam e-mail, and other unsolicited traffic - Packets sent/received from the continual assaults attempting to break into end user machines - Packets for advertising associated with viewing online video.
Spam laws were able to be enacted in large measure because of the unfair 'cost shifting' aspects of unsolicited advertising email. Now users face being charged for the data carrying every banner ad, flash animation, logo, fancy images, movie promo, and other largely unwanted, unessential dreck that litters nearly every website.
This becomes, then, clearly a cost-shifting by advertisers and senders onto the consumer who has to take and pay for whatever the sender spews.
If receivers are forced to pay by the byte, then they need to get a lot more vocal and selective about what they have sent to them that they don't want. | |
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 |  | | Re: Not just accurate metering but *WHAT* is metered. Oh, boy do I remember those days. When we were with Wildblue and had a 7.5GB monthly cap (after they'd knocked all tiers by 25% without a price decrease because they oversold, the b*stards), I was trying to stomp out bandwith-eaters wherever and whenever they cropped up. It got really bad when WB messed with their latency -- every time I'd try to check my bank account or access a site with SSL I'd get a timeout. And have to reload, cross my fingers, and *hope* it went through. I was successful 3 out of 10 times.
Does anyone else remember when laws were passed to stop spam faxes? Burning up expensive ink and/or toner plus paper just to send a crummy ad put the cost on the back of the consumer, yet here we are with bandwith caps and UBB that do the same thing. Pop-ups, banners ads, cookies, software updates, spam with graphics, spam in general...it burns through MB's in no time. All of which the user, who did not ask for the crap, will pay for. | |
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 |  |  | | Re: Not just accurate metering but *WHAT* is metered. what about rounding? some may round up by a lot. | |
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 | | Bell has always been broken When I was a Bell Sympatico member I would routinely receive bills above my monthly allowance. I didn't feel that I had used over my limit so I paid extra for the insurance that allowed me to have 40 gigs a month.
Initially I had a 20 gig limit and despite not having a wireless router or even using heavy bandwidth, the bill would exceed the tracker's estimate.
So paying extra for 'insurance' and 40 gigs usage monthly, I checked the usage tracker and it told me that I had only used 20 gigs a particular month. When the bill arrived I was billed for going above the limit despite the bill and the tracker telling me I'd only used half (20 of 40 gigs). The CSR told me they'd never seen anything like that before. This went on for months where the bill was well above the monthly amount and the usage was within the allowable limit. I told Bell to cancel the internet despite being locked into a contract - based on their not being able to meet their end of the contract. In the end they relented and I left without being charged an extra $100 for cancelling early. This happened almost every month and locally, Bell is the only ISP where you have to pay for a limited amount of bandwidth. Every other local ISP offers UNLIMITED. I told them why should I pay more to receive less? Never again will I go back to Bell as an ISP. Never. | |
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