 | | What's the point? Copper is too expensive to maintain and the telcos aren't going to do work to remove aged wiring and replace them with new lines. | |
|
 | BlueC
join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN Reviews:
 ·Integra Telecom
 ·voip.ms
 ·T-Mobile US
| Re: What's the point? said by HaloFans:Copper is too expensive to maintain and the telcos aren't going to do work to remove aged wiring and replace them with new lines.
I think the misunderstanding with developing such technology is its use. This type of technology is incredibly useful in apartment/condo buildings. There's a countless number of older buildings that are only wired with cat3. Running fiber or newer copper (Cat6) to every unit in the building is rather costly to accomplish.
A lot of times this wiring is owned by the property owners, not the telcos. Not exactly a prime focus of expense for most property owners. You would have better luck with the telcos to get lines replaced (so if you think they're bad.....). | |
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| | | | Re: What's the point? said by BlueC:A lot of times this wiring is owned by the property owners, not the telcos. Not exactly a prime focus of expense for most property owners. You would have better luck with the telcos to get lines replaced (so if you think they're bad.....).
The telco here, Verizon (ex-GTE), is not willing to change the aging copper lines here to enable customers to achieve faster speeds. This callous attitude reflects many, if not all, telcos.
Why should they? As I said before, it's too expensive to maintain copper lines as this resource is heavily demanded to be used in manufacturing.
The alternative strategy for the telco is to skew numbers by adding in wireless customers and tout that wireless broadband is the future while ignoring the high price tag marked to it.
Must please investors. | |
|
| | | | | Re: What's the point? yada yada is cooking up a new DSL variation called "Triple V" that someday could be capable of delivering speeds up to 2 Gbps over short distances:
Someday. Or more Realistic We will Never see these speeds. More like 1/10 the speed will ever be deployed | |
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| | | NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
1 edit | said by HaloFans:The telco here, Verizon (ex-GTE), is not willing to change the aging copper lines here to enable customers to achieve faster speeds. This callous attitude reflects many, if not all, telcos.
The telco here, AT&T (nee SBC, nee The Pacific Telesis Group) just last year replaced the F2 in our neighborhood; installing a 100-pair binder in place of the older, 50-pair binder. So I guess it depends upon which telco you have.
But I am mindful that Verizon was betting the baby on fiber (FiOS), in place of copper, while AT&T is, mostly, still trying to milk their copper (U-verse).
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
|
| | Gami00
join:2010-03-11
Mississauga, ON | the main issue, is if the lines are good enough to get greater then 3 Meg DLS, then it probably already is getting it.
if you want higher speeds, those same lines probably won't have the integrity to do these 300 Mbps speeds. Which means you're going to have to run new lines anyway.
no company that wants to nurse copper DSL, wants to spend any money, on anything. They will not be buying these new DSLAM cards/units that are required for these bonded speeds. They won't want to run new copper lines either. (at least in north america)
these faster/bonded DSL research and development is basically worthless for this side of the Globe. | |
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| | | dynodbPremium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN | Re: What's the point? said by Gami00:no company that wants to nurse copper DSL, wants to spend any money, on anything. They will not be buying these new DSLAM cards/units that are required for these bonded speeds. They won't want to run new copper lines either. (at least in north america) Except they already have been. From ADSL to ADSL2+ to VDSL2- every step required upgrading and/or installing thousands of DSLAMs for each new technology. | |
|
| | | | Retrofitting an existing building can be super expensive unless you are doing a major renovation to the building. This kind of technology is a perfect fit to retrofitting a building without the expense and mess of rewiring everything.
| |
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| | |  GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:16 | Re: What's the point? Four pairs requires eight wires going to each apartment. How many apartments have you seen with that kind of a setup? That would likely require rewiring to the same extent that running ethernet would.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org | |
|
| | | | beaups
join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH | Re: What's the point? Quite a few. Mine, for instance. | |
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| | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Four pair or four wires? Two pair are fairly common nowadays thanks to the explosion of dial-up in the 90s. | |
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| | | | | beaups
join:2003-08-11
Hilliard, OH | Re: What's the point? 4 pair...cat 5. | |
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| | | | | | NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: What's the point? I have seen a couple of '80s era houses with 3-pair CAT 3 wiring round here. 4-pair CAT 3 wiring is available in bulk at some places. CAT 5 is always 4-pair, but the difference between CAT 3 and CAT 5 is the rate of twist of the pairs, not the number of pairs. Typically, CAT 5 has n twists per inch of wire, while CAT 3 has n inches per twist of wire.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
|
| | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Right, but this article is about four wires, not four pair, hence my question to Guspaz  .
It requires 300 MHz, four wires and goes only a short distance | |
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| |  DavidNow accepting new patientsPremium,VIP
join:2002-05-30
Granite City, IL
kudos:70
·AT&T Southwest
 ·DIRECTV
·AT&T Midwest
·Google Voice
| said by BlueC:said by HaloFans:Copper is too expensive to maintain and the telcos aren't going to do work to remove aged wiring and replace them with new lines.
I think the misunderstanding with developing such technology is its use. This type of technology is incredibly useful in apartment/condo buildings. There's a countless number of older buildings that are only wired with cat3. Running fiber or newer copper (Cat6) to every unit in the building is rather costly to accomplish. A lot of times this wiring is owned by the property owners, not the telcos. Not exactly a prime focus of expense for most property owners. You would have better luck with the telcos to get lines replaced (so if you think they're bad.....). I have to agree with you, if my stl. city property management company I rented my apartment is still in the game, it was whatever they could do to save a buck. I remember one year around winter we went through 4 boilers in the basement. Mainly refurbished units is all he ever bought. Getting a radiator changed in a bathroom was a pill to get done. It did finally get changed though, about a year after I moved out of the apartment complex.
When I moved into the apartment only one phone jack worked and it was in the kitchen. It wasn't till after it finally failed when I finally got them to fix them all. The 220 outlet in the living room I replaced myself as the old one had been painted over so many times. My mailbox lock never worked worth a pile of puke. It wasn't hard to get my mail or find it on the floor.
I honestly wouldn't expect that apartment management company to replace the cable in the building on their own willingly. THey would want someone to pay them to do it, and they probably still would complain after that!.
--
If you have a topic in the direct forum please reply to it or a post of mine, I get a notification when you do this.
Koetting Ford, Granite City, illinois... YOU'RE FIRED!!
| |
|
|  batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by HaloFans:Copper is too expensive to maintain and the telcos aren't going to do work to remove aged wiring and replace them with new lines.
TPC will maintain the copper to a "voice grade" line. Remember you are not paying for a leased line just a voice line.
Now if you want a data grade leased line with a service agreement no problem. Just be ready to pay ten times what you pay for DSL for 1/2 the speed. | |
|
| | BlueC
join:2009-11-26
Minneapolis, MN Reviews:
·Integra Telecom
·voip.ms
·T-Mobile US
| Re: What's the point? said by batterup:TPC will maintain the copper to a "voice grade" line. Remember you are not paying for a leased line just a voice line.
Now if you want a data grade leased line with a service agreement no problem. Just be ready to pay ten times what you pay for DSL for 1/2 the speed.
Eh, there's a reason why it's much more expensive. Dedicated bandwidth, dedicated support, and more expensive equipment on the customer side. | |
|
| elray
join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Copper will live on for decades where fiber will never happen.
This audience grossly underestimates the cost of forklift upgrades, while ignoring the fact that many aren't willing to pay said cost, despite routine examples brought forth.
If the high-tech two-income homeowner who bought in the new development outside of town isn't willing to fork over $5K to bring in fiber or extend cable, why would the average Joe Sixpack?
Telco is still looking to sell them something they'll bite on without going broke.
Over time, in some places, micro-trenching and other technologies *may* improve price-performance dramatically for many, but there will still be millions who are left with copper as their only wired medium. | |
|
|  alchav
join:2002-05-17
Palm Desert, CA | said by HaloFans:Copper is too expensive to maintain and the telcos aren't going to do work to remove aged wiring and replace them with new lines.
I'm glad to see that most people here see this as "Pie in the Sky" Technology. You're right, Copper is dead, it's old technology and too expensive to replace. In order to use this Technology you need good Copper Lines, so for practical purposes it's not going to happen. AT&T U-Verse might be able to use it, because they are committed to Copper but for anyone else, not a good idea. | |
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| batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ | What is you people's problem? They are doers doing something; then there are nabobs of negativism, idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. | |
|
| NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| said by HaloFans:Copper is too expensive to maintain and the telcos aren't going to do work to remove aged wiring and replace them with new lines.
More expensive than coax? I wonder ... what costs to maintain the aerial plant, regardless if it is copper, coax, or fiber?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
|
| | batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: What's the point? said by NormanS:said by HaloFans:Copper is too expensive to maintain and the telcos aren't going to do work to remove aged wiring and replace them with new lines.
More expensive than coax? I wonder ... what costs to maintain the aerial plant, regardless if it is copper, coax, or fiber? Fiber is the least expensive to maintain by a large margin, coax would be second as most is feed by fiber and less wires involved. The POTS twisted pair is the most expensive as there are many twisted pairs one for each single party line. Some of the cable must be kept under pressure at all times to keep water out. What also causes problems is a technician must gain access to a pair of wires when work is done as there is no plug and play. | |
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| | | NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 | Re: What's the point? They pressurize aerial copper? Interesting. | |
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| | | | batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: What's the point? said by NormanS:They pressurize aerial copper? Interesting.
SOME; there is still some led covered paper insulated copper out there. They have a splicer full time patching leaks. They do not want to get water in a paper insulated cable.
Take that plus the compressors that are spread out all along the line and the cost adds up. The wires are thin also and brake easily in PIC ready access cable. Fix one brake two.
Another thing is the diameter; a fiber cable 1/2 inch wide can carry more than a 6 inch across copper cable. There are conduits that were packed tight with copper cables that now are empty except for a 1/2 fiber cable. Copper costs much more than glass too. | |
|
 Duramax08A Challenger AppearsPremium
join:2008-08-03
San Antonio, TX | -yawn- Next crazy story please..... | |
|
bn1221
join:2009-04-29
Cortland, NY | my Phantom DSL My Phantom DSL is 1000000 jigabits and cooks me breakfast! | |
|
| Reviews:
 ·EPB Fiber Optics
| Re: my Phantom DSL said by bn1221:My Phantom DSL is 1000000 jigabits and cooks me breakfast!
Good luck finding the 1.21 gigawatts necessary to actually run it.  | |
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| | bn1221
join:2009-04-29
Cortland, NY | Re: my Phantom DSL Flux capacity direct injected bullcrap-ometer and vaporware powered | |
|
batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ | I like it. This speed about 9,000 feet from the CO.
Though with Verizon putting money into DSL I don't think the fiber hanging on the poles is going to be lit up soon. | |
|
| | Meanwhile for people not close to the CO...  | |
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| batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ | Re: Meanwhile for people not close to the CO... Why don't you sign up for 4G and get a cellular modem for your PC?
 | |
|
| | | | Re: Meanwhile for people not close to the CO... That's pointless and needless to say expensive. I'll use up my cap in half a month watching Youtube HD videos. | |
|
| | Yes, but..... Without a net-neutral common-carrier you'll be capped at 2Gb d/l for the month.
You'll hit your monthly cap in about 10 seconds of use. | |
|
Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS
| RETARDED, that's what it is the major reason Verizon abandoned DSL was that most of it's customers in a MAJOR METROPOLITAN AREA were not cost effectively served by dsl.. and if it's that much of a problem in NY metro, guess how much worse the issue will be for AT&T in the vast geography that they have, where the average person will NOT ever be less then 1500 feet from a central office or a remote terminal. This therefore makes the hard sell, a RETARDED sell. If AT&T, the last of the mohicans finally gets religion about deploying Fiber, these DSL companies are Dead in the Water... they might as well start R&D'ing the fiber equipment and make some of that as this will happen sooner rather than later. | |
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| batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: RETARDED, that's what it is said by tmc8080:If AT&T, the last of the mohicans finally gets religion about deploying Fiber, these DSL companies are Dead in the Water...
With only 39% of the people that can get FiOS signing up I don't think there is much of in incentive for at&t to jump on a FTTP plan soon.
The municipal Utopia fiber project in Utah is suffering the same low subscriber sign up rate. The fact has been proven most people don't want or care about a fiber connection into their premise. PROVEN FACT; if the people don't want FTTP nobody can stop them. | |
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| | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Re: RETARDED, that's what it is I would say most people don't care how the services they want are delivered. If it's the service they want, it works reliably and it's price correctly, they'll buy it. Only tech people are giddy about how their services are delivered.
If a universally desired service is created that requires bandwidth that can only be provided by fiber, then fiber adoption rates will sky rocket. | |
|
| | Reviews:
·Optimum Online
·Verizon FiOS
| It's not a matter of people wanting the service.. it's proven that the customer base is there for dual & triple play services. You just don't get it at affordable rates. The *BEST* AT&T can do with adsl2+ is 24 down and 3 megabits up... and this is generally sold at a price which is really too high and it's not available if your more than 3,000 feet from a central office (and IF you have a decent set of copper lines in the last mile too). One day, the cable companies such as Comcast will be forced in overlapping markets with Verizon to upgrade the upstream.. when that day comes, the squeaky wheels in non Verizon markets which overlap with AT&T will be forced to upgrade those markets to higher upstream speeds, then 3 megabits upload will seem quite low. AT&T has no real solution with DSL, other than to spend again on the same last mile deployment which they've already upgraded. At some point, that becomes a declining return.. that's when religion hits.. you can't pray for customers, but FTTP can ensure them. Who knows the exact time frame.. 2 years, 4 years, 6 years? -- but it will happen eventually. | |
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| | | batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: RETARDED, that's what it is said by tmc8080:It's not a matter of people wanting the service.. it's proven that the customer base is there for dual & triple play services. You just don't get it at affordable rates.
Excuse me but Utah's UTOPIA is supposed to be the Utopia of broadband. It is tax payer built and owned with open access to all.
What more do you want; the tax payers to pay for the porn too? | |
|
 maartenaElmoPremium
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA
kudos:1 | At +/- 100 meters or 300 feet.... ...I can do 10 Gbps.
It's called CAT6 Ethernet cabling. 
--
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" | |
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| GuspazGuspazPremium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:16 | Re: At +/- 100 meters or 300 feet.... To nitpick, Cat 6 cabling can only deliver 10Gbps at a minimum of 37 metres. If you want to do 10Gbps at 100m, you need Cat 6a cabling.
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org | |
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| | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: At +/- 100 meters or 300 feet.... To pick more nits, wouldn't that be a maximum of 37 meters? | |
|
| | .. They can make DSL as fast as they want with channel bonding just like the old ISDN days. And with so many people bailing the copper for internet and phone there should be plenty of extra pairs out there to use. | |
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| batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: .. said by megarock:They can make DSL as fast as they want with channel bonding just like the old ISDN days. And with so many people bailing the copper for internet and phone there should be plenty of extra pairs out there to use.
ISDN is not voice grade service and one pays a premium for it. What makes DSL so affordable is TPC only supplies a voice grade line and there is no bonding of voice grade lines.
With dry loop DSL now commonly available one could order several DSL circuits, of course they would be different circuits, and have a router manage the traffic. This in fact would be a better way to go at this point in time with Verizon limiting the down-load during prime time for each voice grade DSL circuits. | |
|
 rchandraStargate Universe fanPremium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105 | too spread out Yes, we have major metropolitan areas, and poulation density for some countries is pretty good from a serving perspective, but huge swaths of both the US and the world are so spread out, I'm very surprised anyone is plowing any significant amount of effort and money into DSL tech.
Then again, if you would have told me in say 1990 that you'd be stuffing almost 1800000 bits per second from South Park and Southside to Seneca St on the Buffalo/West Seneca border over my phone line, I would have told you you're nuts. But somehow technology advanced, and it happened. It was once thought the Shannon limit would make 32000 bps the upper limit of how much data could be pumped over the PSTN...then along came things like V.90. So who knows what as-of-yet-undiscovered property of physics will actually make this stuff useful? But I'd have to say now it looks like a waste of time.
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.
Jeopardy! replies and randomcaps REALLY suck! | |
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| openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: too spread out said by rchandra:But I'd have to say now it looks like a waste of time. You've already highlighted that technology progresses. If that philosophy continues and it's cost effective, why would one think it a waste of time? | |
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| | rchandraStargate Universe fanPremium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105 | Re: too spread out I guess it's because so much of this technology is so distance-dependent. All these high performance figures are for the especially short loops. Again, maybe there will be some physics breakthrough which can overcome distance and impediments, but the plant that's out there was laid down long, long ago; seems the longer it's there, the more it's subject to splicing and such. There are very few things which don't have a serviceable lifetime, and this copper's oooooooooold.
I think the future is in fiber, and possibly over the air (LTE).
--
English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.
Jeopardy! replies and randomcaps REALLY suck! | |
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| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: too spread out said by rchandra:I think the future is in fiber, and possibly over the air (LTE). The future for the near-term is wireless. "Hardcore" consumers don't like that idea, but the fact is, that is where the major telecoms are investing capital. It has the biggest ROI so it is understandable given the anticipated growth in demand over the next few years.
Other than that, I understand the age of some of the copper plant that's out there. I was merely questioning your "waste" comment given the potential for technological advancement. | |
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| | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Because just like an old car can continue to have things repaired and continue running, eventually it's more cost effective to replace it with a new car.
I think the most significant issue with copper is ongoing maintenance. From what I've read, copper lines aren't as durable and long-lived as fiber optic mediums. Copper corrodes and moisture conducts and changes the electrical properties of line. Fiber doesn't have these problems and is also not susceptible to RF ingress. Eventually copper insulation will age and the line will have to be replaced. Isn't it smarter to replace it with something that costs less to maintain, doesn't corrode and doesn't care if it get's wet?
Even if we invented some magic beans that gave copper the same bandwidth potential as fiber optic medium, it still makes more sense to replace it with fiber a maintenance and reliability perspective. | |
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| | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: too spread out I don't dispute the benefits of copper. And if a major plant upgrade/repair is being conducted, then by all means, the plant owner should consider laying down fiber. I was merely questioning rchandra 's comment regarding technological research in advancing the capabilities and capacities of copper as wasteful. I much prefer R&D be conducted to advance technology rather than throwing up our hands because it "might not work". | |
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| | Capped? Capped at 25gb like everything else up here? | |
|
| | BFD Great, the last mile gets even faster, but what good is it when DSL providers like CenturyLink can't service the customers it has with 10Mbps service now, who in their right mind would sign up for gigabit service if the backhaul will provide T1 bandwidth ? | |
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|  Cito
join:2008-09-22
Quitman, GA | Re: BFD I'm lucky myself
I'm 6000 ft from co, I was lucky "In more than one way" to get 12meg with windstream dsl | |
|
bakou
join:2011-02-13
Montreal, QC | Too fast! They should work on getting plain old VDSL with unlimited usage (or at least reasonable) caps first to the general urban population first. I would also accept cat5 cables to the home.
I live in Canada, not south korea  | |
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| | DSL Speeds Not Keeping Up with Online Content Needs I think DSL is good technology, because of the use of the common phone line and it's being cheaper as a bundle, however, when I had it installed five years ago, it was faster than our local cable, which is not true today. 3m 512k looked great against the 768/128k of cable, but I learned from a friend who is still on the cable system in my area that he is now at 20/1M.
The practical issue now is that content is taking too long to buffer. We can't get the premium quality level on Netflix for one thing, and Youtube videos can take 30 minutes to buffer sometimes.
The internet is becoming data intensive and DSL is getting long in the tooth on speeds without any sort of upgrade. While cable's been upgrading in my absense, I haven't had any sort of automatic upgrade on DSL. Cable, once the slower service, has surpassed DSL in my area by a wide margin. | |
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| | Who's kidding who? That's like inventing the wheel all over again but this time with spokes in it. Who's kidding who, dsl over copper is all but dead and buried and at most has 3 to 5 years left in civilized countries. Oh all civilized countries except Canada. | |
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